Current Events > 'Avengers' And 'Deadpool 2' Failed Their Female Characters And Fans (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/05/21/on-avengers-infinity-war-and-deadpool-2s-most-problematic-plot-twists/#ca9b4397d41c
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lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes
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Fuck Forbes I will not turn off my adblock for those clowns
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AlephZero posted...

lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes

AlephZero posted...

lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong
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BloodyNate posted...

AlephZero posted...

lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes

AlephZero posted...

lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong

Without spoiling either this part sums up their main point.

An entire generation or two of film scholars, filmmakers and film critics have been brought up to believe that films that depict wicked men doing bad things to women are inherently more artistic and prestigious than cinema about good men doing nice things for anyone or films about women doing anything at all. Note the reception of Matthew McConaughey's romantic comedies versus the reception of his grimdark projects like True Detective and Killer Joe, or how Black Mass was heralded as Johnny Depp's "return to real acting."
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DundiesAward posted...

BloodyNate posted...

AlephZero posted...

lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes

AlephZero posted...

lol, now plot twists are "problematic"

yikes

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong

Without spoiling either this part sums up their main point.

An entire generation or two of film scholars, filmmakers and film critics have been brought up to believe that films that depict wicked men doing bad things to women are inherently more artistic and prestigious than cinema about good men doing nice things for anyone or films about women doing anything at all. Note the reception of Matthew McConaughey's romantic comedies versus the reception of his grimdark projects like True Detective and Killer Joe, or how Black Mass was heralded as Johnny Depp's "return to real acting."

yup, pretty much what i thought. although comparing romantic comedy to drama is kinda the wrong way to go about it, but the writer is right about the issue of violence towards women in media
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Lmao forbes
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BloodyNate posted...

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong

Are you suggesting that scene where Thanos kills gamora is supposed to make Thanos sympathetic?
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Not a bad article, actually. (Bourne series spoilers) It really pissed me off when they killed off Franka Potente at the beginning of Bourne Supremacy, and while I was a big fan of the first movie, the series never held my interest after that moment.

To me this is the best line in the article (Infinity War spoilers, just in case): Its telling that audiences are apparently angrier at Peter for grieving for Gamora than with Thanos for killing her.

I've hated this trope for years, and wouldn't mind seeing some more attention brought to correcting it.
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I've only seen rave reviews for Domino and Scarlet Witch became inexplicably the strongest freaking avenger in IW so good on her.
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This mass-market entertainment aimed at kids and adults around the world opens with a scene where the villain kills two major male characters (Loki and Heimdall) so that well find him scary and evil, and then (about an hour later) eventually tortures one female character and murders another so that we find him sympathetic or complex. Oh, and the other major consequence of this act of filicide is to anger Gamoras boyfriend (Chris Pratts Star-Lord) to the extent where he makes a key tactical error at just the wrong moment.

After building up Gamora for two Guardians of the Galaxy movies, her role in Infinity War is at best a martyr and at worst a plot point in the character development of her murderer, callously discarded so that we will feel pity for the abusive father who murdered her and for the boyfriend who must mourn her. Its telling that audiences are apparently angrier at Peter for grieving for Gamora than with Thanos for killing her.

there's a decent conversation to be had about this somewhere other than CE
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Tyranthraxus posted...

BloodyNate posted...

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong

Are you suggesting that scene where Thanos kills gamora is supposed to make Thanos sympathetic?

lets see...

-music moves to a tragic crescendo that recalls sadness, not anger/fear
-lots of shots of thanos looking sad, including the last shot of the scene
-the number of times following that we see thanos be deeply regretful and described as in great pain over doing it

yeah, i think the writers wanted us to pity him a bit
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That was a boring stupid article.
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masterpug53 posted...

Not a bad article, actually. (Bourne series spoilers) It really pissed me off when they killed off Franka Potente at the beginning of Bourne Supremacy, and while I was a big fan of the first movie, the series never held my interest after that moment.

To me this is the best line in the article (Infinity War spoilers, just in case): Its telling that audiences are apparently angrier at Peter for grieving for Gamora than with Thanos for killing her.

I've hated this trope for years, and wouldn't mind seeing some more attention brought to correcting it.

You not liking a trope doesn't mean it needs correcting. Also, people aren't angrier with Peter grieving Gamora. They criticize him for letting his personal feelings ruin the plan to save 50% of all life in the universe.

With Thanos, fans can appreciate a villain complicated enough to sacrifice his personal love to do (what he believes is) his duty. Even when it obviously breaks his big, purple heart to do it.

Women being killed or violated in fiction as part of the plot to a story, even stories with Male protagonists, isn't likely to go away anytime soon. Not until people stop having a greater reaction to the harm dealt to women than they do men. We have a more visceral reaction to seeing girls and women harmed than we do boys and men and that means girls and women being harmed makes for better drama in fiction.
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Isn't essentially everybody praising how awesome Domino was in Deadpool 2?
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Forbes is trash-tier, millennial pandering journalism.
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Esrac posted...

You not liking a trope doesn't mean it needs correcting. Also, people aren't angrier with Peter grieving Gamora. They criticize him for letting his personal feelings ruin the plan to save 50% of all life in the universe.

With Thanos, fans can appreciate a villain complicated enough to sacrifice his personal love to do (what he believes is) his duty. Even when it obviously breaks his big, purple heart to do it.

Women being killed or violated in fiction as part of the plot to a story, even stories with Male protagonists, isn't likely to go away anytime soon. Not until people stop having a greater reaction to the harm dealt to women than they do men. We have a more visceral reaction to seeing girls and women harmed than we do boys and men and that means girls and women being harmed makes for better drama in fiction.

you basically just addressed fleshed out the reason its problematic and then went on to say it makes for good drama so its okay

when in fact it should serve as evidence that weve got some misogyny to address in the culture that, get this, gets women killed :)
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Forbes is a joke. They accept news stories from anyone, and it's as easy as editing Wikipedia. It's basically just Blogspot now.
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Freddie_Mercury posted...

This mass-market entertainment aimed at kids and adults around the world opens with a scene where the villain kills two major male characters (Loki and Heimdall) so that well find him scary and evil, and then (about an hour later) eventually tortures one female character and murders another so that we find him sympathetic or complex. Oh, and the other major consequence of this act of filicide is to anger Gamoras boyfriend (Chris Pratts Star-Lord) to the extent where he makes a key tactical error at just the wrong moment.

After building up Gamora for two Guardians of the Galaxy movies, her role in Infinity War is at best a martyr and at worst a plot point in the character development of her murderer, callously discarded so that we will feel pity for the abusive father who murdered her and for the boyfriend who must mourn her. Its telling that audiences are apparently angrier at Peter for grieving for Gamora than with Thanos for killing her.

there's a decent conversation to be had about this somewhere other than CE

I don't think there was anything callous about the way Gamora was killed. They quite clearly made it tragic for everyone involved.
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BloodyNate posted...

Esrac posted...

You not liking a trope doesn't mean it needs correcting. Also, people aren't angrier with Peter grieving Gamora. They criticize him for letting his personal feelings ruin the plan to save 50% of all life in the universe.

With Thanos, fans can appreciate a villain complicated enough to sacrifice his personal love to do (what he believes is) his duty. Even when it obviously breaks his big, purple heart to do it.

Women being killed or violated in fiction as part of the plot to a story, even stories with Male protagonists, isn't likely to go away anytime soon. Not until people stop having a greater reaction to the harm dealt to women than they do men. We have a more visceral reaction to seeing girls and women harmed than we do boys and men and that means girls and women being harmed makes for better drama in fiction.

you basically just addressed fleshed out the reason its problematic and then went on to say it makes for good drama so its okay

when in fact it should serve as evidence that weve got some misogyny to address in the culture that, get this, gets women killed :)

It's not problematic though. Its not indicative of misogyny either. Its indicative of a societal concern for the well being of women that we lack for men. Women being hurt is tragic. Men being hurt is mundane.
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I dont know about that, but Im not happy with how Avengers is doing Scarlet Witch.

Esrac posted...

Men being hurt is mundane.

Are you saying he actually felt good the whole time?
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Roshon posted...

I dont know about that, but Im not happy with how Avengers is doing Scarlet Witch.

I was surprised that they disintegrated her, Black Panther, and Dr. Strange. They seemed like likely candidates for surviving until part 2.
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No they didnt

/topic
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BloodyNate posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

BloodyNate posted...

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong

Are you suggesting that scene where Thanos kills gamora is supposed to make Thanos sympathetic?

lets see...

-music moves to a tragic crescendo that recalls sadness, not anger/fear
-lots of shots of thanos looking sad, including the last shot of the scene
-the number of times following that we see thanos be deeply regretful and described as in great pain over doing it

yeah, i think the writers wanted us to pity him a bit

They wanted us to feel the tragedy if Gamoras death. Not feel sympathy for Thanos.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

BloodyNate posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

BloodyNate posted...

didnt see deadpool yet so i havent clicked the article, but if the infinity war one is about thanos killing gamorah, its not wrong

Are you suggesting that scene where Thanos kills gamora is supposed to make Thanos sympathetic?

lets see...

-music moves to a tragic crescendo that recalls sadness, not anger/fear
-lots of shots of thanos looking sad, including the last shot of the scene
-the number of times following that we see thanos be deeply regretful and described as in great pain over doing it

yeah, i think the writers wanted us to pity him a bit

They wanted us to feel the tragedy if Gamoras death. Not feel sympathy for Thanos.

I think that is partially true. They did clearly frame it in a way to make Gamora's death a tragic one. Especially with the build up through her backstory, making Peter promise to kill her, etc.

But they also clearly wanted us to feel something for Thanos having to do it. They wanted the audience to feel the weight of Thanos' decision. To see that he was a man/titan who was willing to sacrifice even what he held dearest to fulfill what he believed was his duty.

I think he stands in some contrast to Peter who let his personal feelings lead to his failing to do his duty to stop Thanos.
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I think the author of this was like "how can I trigger the most comic nerds"
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So if men die good women die bad#Femanism#equality
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Domino was my second favorite character in DP2, right behind Deadpool. That's saying a lot when fucking Cable is in the film. She definitely didn't deserve the racist backlash that she got when her character design was released.
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this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone
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DarthAragorn posted...

this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone

Exactly
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d*mn when did forbes become so sjw-y
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K181 posted...

Isn't essentially everybody praising how awesome Domino was in Deadpool 2?

The article isn't about Domino.

DarthAragorn posted...

this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone

The thing is I don't know if they'd play the story the exact same way if it was a grown man who was his son.
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Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

Isn't essentially everybody praising how awesome Domino was in Deadpool 2?

The article isn't about Domino.

DarthAragorn posted...

this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone

The thing is I don't know if they'd play the story the exact same way if it was a grown man who was his son.

Yeah because according to you and forbes if Gamora had a dick it wouldn't have mattered if he died
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assassingriskel posted...

Yeah because according to you and forbes if Gamora had a dick it wouldn't have mattered if he died

I never said that.
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Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

Isn't essentially everybody praising how awesome Domino was in Deadpool 2?

The article isn't about Domino.

DarthAragorn posted...

this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone

The thing is I don't know if they'd play the story the exact same way if it was a grown man who was his son.

The topic title was partially about how Deadpool 2 failed female characters.

A female character in Deadpool 2 was universally praised.

I mean.... okay.
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An entire generation or two of film scholars, filmmakers and film critics have been brought up to believe that films that depict wicked men doing bad things to women are inherently more artistic and prestigious than cinema about good men doing nice things for anyone or films about women doing anything at all. Note the reception of Matthew McConaughey's romantic comedies versus the reception of his grimdark projects like True Detective and Killer Joe, or how Black Mass was heralded as Johnny Depp's "return to real acting."

What? People don't nod just because a man hurt a woman. You can make an argument about people taking more interest in 'grimdark' than a romantic comedy, generally a darker film is taken more seriously, but immediately boiling all films down to "man hurt woman vs man be nice to woman" is a bizarre first step of this article.

It follows a long line of sequels that killed off (The Bourne Supremacy, Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me, Zoolander, No. 2) or wrote out (Mission: Impossible: Ghost Protocol, Ted 2, Transformers: Dark of the Moon) their female love interests even in cases where the romantic plot was the driving force of that previous films emotional story arc. By swiftly writing them out or killing them off, youre inherently invalidating the first films entire narrative.

It's clear why fridging is a frustrating plot device for shippers and those types of fans, but to say it "invalidates" the narrative of the first film is nonsense, as though the author of this article believes nothing is meaningful unless it exists in a state of 'happily ever after.' The lack of female main characters in media may be a valid complaint, but at the end of the day the main character is Deadpool, not his love interest. People don't want to see the same love story again. Generally these characters are a catalyst or driving force behind the main character, but they themselves do not receive complex development. People came to Deadpool to see Deadpool, not his girlfriend. In Austin Powers 2 they wrote off the first movies girl to free up Austin Powers because the movie is about Austin Powers. Again, I get why people don't like the trope, but in this case it's not so much a 'tired cliche' trope as much as a 'useful in cinema's world of making sequel after sequel.'

Plenty of minor characters do not show up in any given sequel, but it may be more obvious with love interests because there perhaps is a problem with girls just being underrepresented in action/comedy roles in all places.

and the actresses who play them) are entirely disposable no matter how valuable they were to the first film or that films word-of-mouth-driven success. To the extent that Fox successfully sold the original Deadpool as a romantic comedy, its insulting to reward that fanbase with a swift execution of one half of the star couple.

Again this whole thing should've just said "girls don't have enough non-romantic-interest roles!" That's true, but what's also true is that the corp doesn't owe the actress more screentime. She already got paid. And I have never ever heard Deadpool billed as a ROMANTIC comedy. All trailers were "look he's silly!"

eventually tortures one female character and murders another so that we find him sympathetic or complex.

Nobody sees Thanos as more complex or sympathetic for torturing his daughter. He's seen as a horrible person. People are disgusted that he killed his daughter so that he could genocide everyone else. In any case, I don't think they've made a strong enough point with these examples to make this more of an issue than "not enough good female characters." Slipping in the torture part to say 'two women' make him at sympathetic vs two men to make him scary comes off as downright dishonest of the author.
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Well, Deadpool 1 was kind of advertised as a romantic comedy, but... clearly as a joke

But I don't recall seeing that at all for 2
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K181 posted...

Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

Isn't essentially everybody praising how awesome Domino was in Deadpool 2?

The article isn't about Domino.

DarthAragorn posted...

this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone

The thing is I don't know if they'd play the story the exact same way if it was a grown man who was his son.

The topic title was partially about how Deadpool 2 failed female characters.

A female character in Deadpool 2 was universally praised.

I mean.... okay.

Sure and I can see how that can be a counter-argument.

But they're not talking about her. They're talking about Wade's girlfriend and her role in the story.
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also shoehorning a love interest into something that doesn't need it is how you get stuff like arrow

don't be like arrow
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Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

Isn't essentially everybody praising how awesome Domino was in Deadpool 2?

The article isn't about Domino.

DarthAragorn posted...

this wouldn't be an article if gamora was a man and thanos killed him for the stone

The thing is I don't know if they'd play the story the exact same way if it was a grown man who was his son.

The topic title was partially about how Deadpool 2 failed female characters.

A female character in Deadpool 2 was universally praised.

I mean.... okay.

Sure and I can see how that can be a counter-argument.

But they're not talking about her. They're talking about Wade's girlfriend and her role in the story.

In other words, they're making an argument while ignoring the most clear example of proof against. If that's the case, then they're clearing grinding an axe and making a predetermined argument. Oh no, an ancillary character was treated as an ancillary character. Meanwhile, a strong and entertaining female character made their big screen debut and the audience response has all but guaranteed that she'll be a main character in the series movie forward and might even get a movie of her own if the push is strong enough.
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K181 posted...

In other words, they're making an argument while ignoring the most clear example of proof against. If that's the case, then they're clearing grinding an axe and making a predetermined argument. Oh no, an ancillary character was treated as an ancillary character.

Have you seen the movie?
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Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

In other words, they're making an argument while ignoring the most clear example of proof against. If that's the case, then they're clearing grinding an axe and making a predetermined argument. Oh no, an ancillary character was treated as an ancillary character.

Have you seen the movie?

Yes. Domino was a fantastic character, and Wade's girlfriend continued to be a secondary character as she was in the first film. She got less screen time because the plot was even less about her, that doesn't mean they're trivializing or negating female characters.
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voldothegr8 posted...

I think the author of this was like "how can I trigger the most comic nerds"

Giving author too much credit
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K181 posted...

Darmik posted...

K181 posted...

In other words, they're making an argument while ignoring the most clear example of proof against. If that's the case, then they're clearing grinding an axe and making a predetermined argument. Oh no, an ancillary character was treated as an ancillary character.

Have you seen the movie?

Yes. Domino was a fantastic character, and Wade's girlfriend continued to be a secondary character as she was in the first film. She got less screen time because the plot was even less about her, that doesn't mean they're trivializing or negating female characters.

She's the only character/plot in the movie that's taken 100% seriously. She has a lot more impact to the plot and Wade's development than Domino does.

It's the weird thing about the film. It's usually so self-aware about this sort of stuff. Yet they use one of the most clich tropes around and they play it 100% straight. That's why this sort of criticism isn't really that surprising.
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Hmmm....Deadpool 2 had a female character as the driving point of the plot (for Deadpool himself) and another one we don't see as the other driving point of the plot (Cable's daughter), but then we have Domino being just....awesome and Negasonic Teenage Warhead and Kimiko helping to take out Juggernaut, the big bad essentially. Nah.

Let's look at IW

Shuri kinda solves an impossible problem in a few minutes and is shown to be the smartest character.

Scarlet Witch is shown to be impressive and can apparently destroy an Infinity Stone and hold off Thanos.

Mantis was instrumental in a plan that almost beat Thanos, the big bad.

Captain Marvel, though not seen, is given respect as the 'break glass in case of emergency' weapon.

Still nah.
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