Current Events > What was supposed to be the moral behind Poe not believing in Holdo? *TLJ spoils

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DoomsSD posted...

I think when your entire Resistance force has been whittled down to just one battle crusier you've got bigger problems on than what some hot head pilot could do. Just tell him the damn plan. The odds were already hugely stacked against them and not working with the few remaining personel you have left stacks the odds even further against you.

Poe actually seemed impressed with the plan when he was made savvy to it

The main problem seems to have been their personalities clashing. Poe thought he was entitled to know the plan, Holdo saw no reason to give him that information when he had a history of rash actions.
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DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

The main problem seems to have been their personalities clashing. Poe thought he was entitled to know the plan, Holdo saw no reason to give him that information when he had a history of rash actions.

When your resistance is made up of volunteers and dwindled to a single ship, you need to let ego aside. Trying to maintain strict military discipline is absurd. Again, a loosely organized rebel force on the verge of defeat is going to have morale problems, morale problems get lead to . . . mutiny.

The "good" guys shouldn't hiding their plans or zapping defectors.
Remember when Han left before the battle against the DeathStar? That shit wouldn't have flew in this one.
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DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

Technically yes, Finn was in the wrong, at least by the standards of the First Order. If he was truly loyal to them (the way Poe is loyal to the Resistance), he wouldn't have betrayed them. But he wasn't, he was already having doubts before they went to Jakku. And no, their roles were not equivalent. Finn was a grunt, Poe was a squad commander with subordinates and a higher level of responsibility.

Soooo...it's wrong for Poe to betray Holdo, but not for Finn to betray Phasma, because Poe has a higher relative rank than Finn did?

So does that mean you think Darth Vader betraying the Emperor at the last moment was the wrong thing to do too? I mean he was second only to the Emperor in the chain of command

DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word trust. But Leia made it clear that she picked Holdo to lead. Given the high esteem in which Poe holds Leia, that in itself should have proven to him that Holdo was capable.

Leia could have made a mistake. And we already know how Holdo was too dumb to let people know that they weren't actually going on a suicide mission. So obviously she wasn't the best choice for the position.

Wasn't there a possible spy in the ship? Holdo could only trust certain people with the plan.
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3khc posted...

Wasn't there a possible spy in the ship? Holdo could only trust certain people with the plan.

No. It's something people have made up because there is no justification for Holdo's actions. Not once do they ever imply a mole.
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dave_is_slick posted...

3khc posted...

Wasn't there a possible spy in the ship? Holdo could only trust certain people with the plan.

No. It's something people have made up because there is no justification for Holdo's actions. Not once do they ever imply a mole.

I specifically rememver thinking this during the film tho. When they said they were being tracked, i figured it was because someone on the ship was a traitor.
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3khc posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

3khc posted...

Wasn't there a possible spy in the ship? Holdo could only trust certain people with the plan.

No. It's something people have made up because there is no justification for Holdo's actions. Not once do they ever imply a mole.

I specifically rememver thinking this during the film tho. When they said they were being tracked, i figured it was because someone on the ship was a traitor.

"That's impossible" doesn't imply a traitor. It just implies something that based in their current knowledge is impossible. Hell, the Death Star could be considered impossible since know one on the Falcon knew what it was or what it could do.
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dave_is_slick posted...

3khc posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

3khc posted...

Wasn't there a possible spy in the ship? Holdo could only trust certain people with the plan.

No. It's something people have made up because there is no justification for Holdo's actions. Not once do they ever imply a mole.

I specifically rememver thinking this during the film tho. When they said they were being tracked, i figured it was because someone on the ship was a traitor.

"That's impossible" doesn't imply a traitor. It just implies something that based in their current knowledge is impossible. Hell, the Death Star could be considered impossible since know one on the Falcon knew what it was or what it could do.

It was heavily implied by the movie. Pretending that it is post hoc because it wasn't directly stated is silly.
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COVxy posted...

It was heavily implied by the movie.

It literally wasn't. Like, when I watched it a second time, I was specifically paying attention for anything to justify Holdo's actions and there was nothing. I wanted to be wrong. I liked it initially so I wanted these criticisms to be blown out of proportion but they were right.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

The moral of the story is don't see anymore Star Wars movies.

I laughed at this so much I didn't even bother reading the rest of the topic haha.
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LightHawKnight posted...

Do people not realize she thought there was a mole on the ship?

No where in the movie was that brought up, moreover it makes her look even worse . Since Rose and the Poe figured out what was going on in seconds. This man that she is freezing out solved the issues that she couldn't it.
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Ah the Last Jedi, where you have to make your own deductions because the movie doesn't want to.
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If Poe was spy, then why would he have not just given the map to the First Order, why would he have escaped with Finn, why would he have turned Finn someone with detail knowledge of the bad guys base that helped them blow up the base. Since people are claiming that Poe might have been a mole. Why he a spy do these things.
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cjsdowg posted...

If Poe was spy, then why would he have not just given the map to the First Order, why would he have escaped with Finn, why would he have turned Finn someone with detail knowledge of the bad guys base that helped them blow up the base. Since people are claiming that Poe might have been a mole. Why he a spy do these things.

There's just so many reasons why it's dumb to think Poe was a spy that I'm still learning new ways that the theory is dumb

Basically, the one thing people are using to defend Holdo here would actually make her look more like an idiot if it were true.

ViralMoose posted...

cjsdowg posted...

If Poe was spy, then why would he have not just given the map to the First Order, why would he have escaped with Finn, why would he have turned Finn someone with detail knowledge of the bad guys base that helped them blow up the base. Since people are claiming that Poe might have been a mole. Why he a spy do these things.

There's just so many reasons why it's dumb to think Poe was a spy that I'm still learning new ways that the theory is dumb

Basically, the one thing people are using to defend Holdo here would actually make her look more like an idiot if it were true.

I don't think the claim is that she thought Poe specifically was a spy...
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COVxy posted...

ViralMoose posted...

cjsdowg posted...

If Poe was spy, then why would he have not just given the map to the First Order, why would he have escaped with Finn, why would he have turned Finn someone with detail knowledge of the bad guys base that helped them blow up the base. Since people are claiming that Poe might have been a mole. Why he a spy do these things.

There's just so many reasons why it's dumb to think Poe was a spy that I'm still learning new ways that the theory is dumb

Basically, the one thing people are using to defend Holdo here would actually make her look more like an idiot if it were true.

I don't think the claim is that she thought Poe specifically was a spy...

I'm just saying that, assuming she thought there was a spy at all, Poe would be one of the first people crossed off the list of potentials. He had way too many opportunities to screw over the resistance for him to not be one.

ViralMoose posted...

cjsdowg posted...

If Poe was spy, then why would he have not just given the map to the First Order, why would he have escaped with Finn, why would he have turned Finn someone with detail knowledge of the bad guys base that helped them blow up the base. Since people are claiming that Poe might have been a mole. Why he a spy do these things.

There's just so many reasons why it's dumb to think Poe was a spy that I'm still learning new ways that the theory is dumb

Basically, the one thing people are using to defend Holdo here would actually make her look more like an idiot if it were true.

I'd buy the spy theory (barely) if Finn was still on board since he'd be the most likely candidate. But Poe? Naw dude, naw.
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COVxy posted...

ViralMoose posted...

cjsdowg posted...

If Poe was spy, then why would he have not just given the map to the First Order, why would he have escaped with Finn, why would he have turned Finn someone with detail knowledge of the bad guys base that helped them blow up the base. Since people are claiming that Poe might have been a mole. Why he a spy do these things.

There's just so many reasons why it's dumb to think Poe was a spy that I'm still learning new ways that the theory is dumb

Basically, the one thing people are using to defend Holdo here would actually make her look more like an idiot if it were true.

I don't think the claim is that she thought Poe specifically was a spy...

Poe was the only one asking for details...
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ViralMoose posted...

I'm just saying that, assuming she thought there was a spy at all, Poe would be one of the first people crossed off the list of potentials. He had way too many opportunities to screw over the resistance for him to not be one.

dave_is_slick posted...

Poe was the only one asking for details...

If you suspect a potential spy, you restrict information to only those essential to the operation.

He wasn't essential until he fucked it all up.
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COVxy posted...

If you suspect a potential spy, you restrict information to only those essential to the operation.

He wasn't essential until he f***ed it all up.

Which again was so few people that a mutiny brewed. And considering that Poe would be essential to keeping morale in check...
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dave_is_slick posted...

COVxy posted...

If you suspect a potential spy, you restrict information to only those essential to the operation.

He wasn't essential until he f***ed it all up.

Which again was so few people that a mutiny brewed. And considering that Poe would be essential to keeping morale in check...

Expecting her to predict a mutiny is praising shitty writing, not the other way around.
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COVxy posted...

Expecting her to predict a mutiny

I was expecting her to remember that morale is a thing.
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COVxy posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

COVxy posted...

If you suspect a potential spy, you restrict information to only those essential to the operation.

He wasn't essential until he f***ed it all up.

Which again was so few people that a mutiny brewed. And considering that Poe would be essential to keeping morale in check...

Expecting her to predict a mutiny is praising shitty writing, not the other way around.

Yeah, and I would think it's fair to say that the mutiny happening was due to Holdo's weakness as a leader. She did her best, but it was a high stress situation and as smart as she was, she was no Leia Organa.

Maybe telling Poe would have been a better move. But it makes sense that she didn't based on what she knew at the time.

Forget about there being a mole. We don't need to think there's a spy for her actions to make sense. It's just common wisdom that loose lips sink ships, and usually an army does not tell its plans to people unless they need to know. Because even if people aren't spies they might inadvertently allow the enemy to know. The more people know, the higher the chances are of something leaking (as they DID leak, because of Poe). So most important plans are kept on a need to know basis. Poe did not need to know.

Also they DID say in the movie that people were deserting. What if she told the plan to everyone, then someone deserted, and they got captured by the First Order? Five seconds with Kylo Ren and their secret plan would be blown.
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Illuminoius posted...

what makes you think it's supposed to be a moral

This is Disney we are talking about. There is a moral. There is always a moral with those shills.
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