Current Events > How DID Terra beat Raven in the teen titans cartoon?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I remember she betrayed the team and defected to Slade, but how the heck did she defeat Raven who is all powerful in a reality bending sort of way? Not to mention the fact that Terra stole Raven's man, so that should extra infuriate Raven to rip her apart for stealing her man.

The story decided Terra needed to win.

That's literally how.

Raven greatly dwarfs the others in power and once you realise that you'll see just how many episodes had to basically write around her powers by pretending they're not there or otherwise the episode breaks.

Raven's not the only one subject to this though. Like a late episode involving a silly race where the villain shot Raven and Starfire with "an anti-flying beam" which is seriously what it was called, because their ability to fly would ruin the whole episode.

The entire first season's arc with like, oh Slade so mysterious and dangerous loses a bit of something when it's made clear later Raven could have easily just thrashed the hell out of him and even projected herself into his mind to determine exactly who he is. Their "fight" in season 4 certainly illustrated that.

But yeah, the fight with Terra, Terra didn't even do anything. Except pull Raven down. That's it. With physical force. Holding Raven down. That's how she won. Against a character who can astral project, phase into other dimensions, become intangible at will, exhibit significant telekinetic powers and magical powers and energy powers akin to a green lantern tinted black. Pulling her down.

Makes about as much sense as when she lost a fight to a gorilla in season 5 because she tried to melee it. Because that makes sense. Big gorilla vs. psychic/magic character? The latter should try melee.

The entire series had to pretend Raven's powers didn't exist 98% of the time.
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So in a contrived way as I suspected. Oh well, it's not as bad as the early episodes justice league syndrome. To create suspense you have to severely nerf your supers, even if it means joker single handedly beats all the powered members of jl like using marbles on flash which works (smh)

It's not so much pretending her powers didn't exist so much as she feared her powers and didn't have full control over them.
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Raven tries to keep her emotions in check, but the betrayal and abuse of her trusting another person fucked with her emotional state, causing her magic to not be as strong or controlled.

But yeah, this happened. I mean, the Flash got jobbed so many times in Justice League and his powers were relatively gimped for the most part until the end of JLA.
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Making Raven angry to weaken her really doesn't make sense though.

Like look back to the episode where her and Starfire switched bodies. Starfire was distressed and freaking out and it was causing things around her to like...corrode/melt. Or when Raven snapped against Dr. Light and, again, just exuded an aura that seemed to tear away at everything on him, and as well his psyche, apparently. Being upset causes her to just uncontrollably start ruining all physical matter around her. >_>

Raven focuses so much on control and restraint because she's a superhero, but is built more as a harbinger of the apocalypse. She doesn't try to maintain focus and balanced emotions for strength, she does that so she doesn't accidentally kill people or something. The entire series, she largely is actively seeking to suppress her power, instead of strengthen it further. The one episode where she was actively seeking to empower herself, when she got bamboozled by a dragon, she was shown to just be floating everywhere effortlessly, could will BB's transformations herself, open up the sky and unleash lightning... And then how about the origin episode of how they met. When pressed and under duress, she...wipes out almost everyone in a giant spaceship as well as blowing it up inside and bringing it out of the sky.

And later in that story arc with Terra, Raven threatens her. "It'll be the last thing you ever do"

Which sounds like threatening to kill her to me.

And that ultimately, is why that fight with her is dumb and makes no sense. Everything about Raven that is shown about her powers, throughout the episodes and seasons and what those powers can do, communicates that if she wants to kill, if she's really upset, that's not bad for her, it's bad for everything else around her.

And I can go on. Like Birthmark. In this episode she gets REALLY stressed and what happens? time literally stops at her command.

Or how about The Prophecy where she is very clearly VERY pissed off and kills Slade. Violently. Or would have, if he could die. But they made the point very clear, that if Slade were mortal, Raven would have just brutally killed him then and there in that fight and there was nothing he could even do about it despite being powered up by demonic forces.

For logical consistency, in the Terra fight, when she got really upset, what would have logically happened is all the earth powers Terra was using to try and restrain her, would have rapidly dissolved away as it neared Raven, as she was clearly emitting a vicious aura at the time. A more logical way to have Raven lose would have been for her to sense the others in trouble, this to distract her momentarily, allowing Terra to actually strike a decisive blow, and then Raven would not resist further because she'd instead seek out the other Titans to rescue them since IIRC I don't think they even explain how the others got out of their predicament, though the Titan with the ability to fly and teleport while intangible and transport others in said intangible aura would be the safest bet. It would have allowed the episode to still flow as it did, but would be logically consistent with her character and also make more sense as a weakness of Raven's to exploit. Because her protectiveness of the others and fear of them being harmed as well as her being demonic are more plausible things to pick at.

What's funny is it's almost like that episode, The Prophecy, was addressing this. I remember Slade advising Terra. You know her weakness, exploit it. So Terra makes Raven angry. And then in season 4, Slade is fucking with Raven to mess with her and upset her, and it reaches the boiling point in The Prophecy, at which point Slade is thrashed around exploded and his neck snapped. Good job exploiting that weakness, Slade. \( '_')/
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Tmk posted...

Making Raven angry to weaken her really doesn't make sense though.

Like look back to the episode where her and Starfire switched bodies. Starfire was distressed and freaking out and it was causing things around her to like...corrode/melt. Or when Raven snapped against Dr. Light and, again, just exuded an aura that seemed to tear away at everything on him, and as well his psyche, apparently. Being upset causes her to just uncontrollably start ruining all physical matter around her. >_>

Raven focuses so much on control and restraint because she's a superhero, but is built more as a harbinger of the apocalypse. She doesn't try to maintain focus and balanced emotions for strength, she does that so she doesn't accidentally kill people or something. The entire series, she largely is actively seeking to suppress her power, instead of strengthen it further.

See, the thing is that her emotional release against Terra also showed that she never really wanted to kill or maim her. I know she holds it in check so she doesn't get corrupted by her demonic half and Trigon, which is why she would also have been reluctant to dive into her demonic power. It seemed more like she snapped because the possibility that she could be worthy of redemption went out the window. The control she had later in the arc when threatening Terra was because she was certain about it in an unfeeling, unmoved way.

And I can go on. Like Birthmark. In this episode she gets REALLY stressed and what happens? time literally stops at her command.

Or how about The Prophecy where she is very clearly VERY pissed off and kills Slade. Violently. Or would have, if he could die. But they made the point very clear, that if Slade were mortal, Raven would have just brutally killed him then and there in that fight and there was nothing he could even do about it despite being powered up by demonic forces.

Trigon's presence greatly augments Raven's powers and also augments them because of how much fear and loathing she has for him and also because of their history so the time stop thing wasn't really that unusual, especially because she also would have progressed on her ability, power and control over the show's time.

As for the Slade thing, there's a very distinct difference between all of these characters you listed and Terra. They were already enemies of hers that she's fought with in the past. There's a different reference frame and context for that scenario. Either way, the weirdest thing I thought about that arc was how Robin and Raven were shipping, tbh.

For logical consistency, in the Terra fight, when she got really upset, what would have logically happened is all the earth powers Terra was using to try and restrain her, would have rapidly dissolved away as it neared Raven, as she was clearly emitting a vicious aura at the time. A more logical way to have Raven lose would have been for her to sense the others in trouble,

I don't agree. Her loss of control wasn't something she was just gonna snap out of by an outside distraction. She only had one thing on her mind, but I do agree that Raven's powers should have been more competitive than they showed.

What's funny is it's almost like that episode, The Prophecy, was addressing this. I remember Slade advising Terra. You know her weakness, exploit it. So Terra makes Raven angry. And then in season 4, Slade is fucking with Raven to mess with her and upset her, and it reaches the boiling point in The Prophecy, at which point Slade is thrashed around exploded and his neck snapped. Good job exploiting that weakness, Slade. \( '_')/

That was pretty sweet. She did what Robin couldn't really do either and oddly enough, Terra did what Robin couldn't do either, which is really fuck up Slade in straight combat.
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If her snapping was from the realisation she's not worthy of redemption, then why wouldn't that make Terra just like other enemies then, if not worse, like Light or Slade?
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Tmk posted...

If her snapping was from the realisation she's not worthy of redemption, then why wouldn't that make Terra just like other enemies then, if not worse, like Light or Slade?

Heat of the moment is a thing. She hadn't had the time to process and premeditate it like she did after she lost the fight. And that wouldn't erase the immediate history they shared regardless.
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Well, to go back a bit to the whole...her power progressing over the series: you know it really is kind of crazy some of the stuff she ended up doing.

One thing that I think most people overlooked was in Cyborg the Barbarian.

Because Raven rescued him. By...reaching into a portal she created, and pulling him out, back to them. Cyborg was in the very distant past. So Raven...reached into the past and pulled something into the present.

And I'm just like "wat"

But, eh... Teen Titans was pretty frustrating for me at times. Because Raven has quite possibly my favorite like, powerset. Aesthetically and functionally. And it just was so squandered most of the time, or ignored, or downplayed. Sort of the reverse of what they did for Robin, since sometimes they portrayed him just a wee bit too overly competent and powerful for someone with no superpowers. Not that that's anything new of course but still. It's just silly.
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You guys are putting more thought into this than the original writers.
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SpinKirby posted...

You guys are putting more thought into this than the original writers.

This is a very tired and defeatist kind of reaction to discussion that is all too cliche and amounts to going "be negative and disinterested about things like me guys c'mon" :/
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Tmk posted...

SpinKirby posted...

You guys are putting more thought into this than the original writers.

This is a very tired and defeatist kind of reaction to discussion that is all too cliche and amounts to going "be negative and disinterested about things like me guys c'mon" :/

The show is more teen comedy-action than anything else. It had far less polish than something like Justice League, but much better appeal.

Character development was wildly inconsistent, and story line was only there for like 50% of each season.

Why treat it with more depth than it actually has?
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SpinKirby posted...

Tmk posted...

SpinKirby posted...

You guys are putting more thought into this than the original writers.

This is a very tired and defeatist kind of reaction to discussion that is all too cliche and amounts to going "be negative and disinterested about things like me guys c'mon" :/

The show is more teen comedy-action than anything else. It had far less polish than something like Justice League, but much better appeal.

Character development was wildly inconsistent, and story line was only there for like 50% of each season.

Why treat it with more depth than it actually has?

Look, we get that you don't care. You done?
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Character development was not that inconsistent, and the way seasons handled storylines was actually pretty smart, by having a storyarc each season belonging to several episodes that ends with the season finale, but in between various one-off episodes that explore a wide variety of tones and concepts. Helped keep things fresh and diverse.

Also depth is not some simply objective thing that is willed into being. Sometimes intentional depth can prove to be far shallower than it was meant to be, and accidental depth can form in other cases.

I'm not doing anything ill-suited to the show. I'm speaking of it to the same extent I felt it when I experienced and enjoyed it, and my experience is as real an universally objective as anything someone else thinks. No one needs you to tell them they're experiencing a show wrong.
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SpinKirby posted...

Why treat it with more depth than it actually has?

because we enjoy it. do we need any other reason?
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Tmk posted...

No one needs you to tell them they're experiencing a show wrong.

Where did I say that?

Tmk posted...

Character development was not that inconsistent, and the way seasons handled storylines was actually pretty smart, by having a storyarc each season belonging to several episodes that ends with the season finale, but in between various one-off episodes that explore a wide variety of tones and concepts. Helped keep things fresh and diverse.

Also depth is not some simply objective thing that is willed into being. Sometimes intentional depth can prove to be far shallower than it was meant to be, and accidental depth can form in other cases.

I'm not doing anything ill-suited to the show. I'm speaking of it to the same extent I felt it when I experienced and enjoyed it, and my experience is as real an universally objective as anything someone else thinks.

You already explained it yourself. There's a good portion of the time where the writers just realized that their power scaling is off, so they'd intentionally write around it rather than attempt to "fix" the character. Even ignoring the comics, it seems like Cyborg almost existed just to job with a non-lethal sonic cannon. It's no big deal, but personally I'd rather gear myself towards more fruitful discussions about the show that don't just end in "xd writers".
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Well what I was saying wasn't ending in "xd writers" and in fact was more an in-depth look at Raven and how she's portrayed and how she develops throughout the series.

Because one of the strengths of the show was the cast. The characters slowly (mostly) got fleshed out better and were distinct enough with the sort of composite cast the show was working with that it cast a wider net that would at least partially appeal to more people.

It's not like power scaling being off and jobbing are an unusual thing to find, in cartoons, comics, anime, whatever. It's extremely common in fact. I only went in depth with it because Raven is my favorite character on the show and it affected her the most and she also has one of my favorite powersets from anything, further amplifying matters and giving a platform to expand on and talk about said powers.

The silliest thing to me so far in this topic is me having to explain these things to someone who seems to desire people stop talking about things they like.
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Raven had nice legs
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Tmk posted...

The silliest thing to me so far in this topic is me having to explain these things to someone who seems to desire people stop talking about things they like.

We're all friends here. No need to get snarky.
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There was also no need to try and tell people they put more than the Officially Allotted Amount of Thought Into Thing.
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Irony posted...

Raven had nice legs

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Tmk posted...

There was also no need to try and tell people they put more than the Officially Allotted Amount of Thought Into Thing.

I'm free to express my opinion.
If anything, I was neutral and then you came with the heavy defensive stance.
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As I said, your reaction to the topic was a very, very overplayed, cliche, too cool for school, put down what people are doing and just have a generally snobby "why are you bothering with this" and repetitive obnoxious things breed contempt.

It's dumb. You faulted people for being enthusiastic about a show. You're wrong and should feel bad.
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Tmk posted...

As I said, your reaction to the topic was a very, very overplayed, cliche, too cool for school, put down what people are doing and just have a generally snobby "why are you bothering with this" and repetitive obnoxious things breed contempt.

It's dumb. You faulted people for being enthusiastic about a show. You're wrong and should feel bad.

I'm sorry that you feel that way?
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he had a mini meltdown.
didn't really feel fulfilling :(.
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SpinKirby posted...

I'm sorry that you feel that way?

Somehow I doubt it. Party poopin's not a proud...

Fuck what is a synonym for like, tradition that starts with P. I was so close to some sweet alliteration.
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I mean, superman's "world of cardboard" speech WAS pretty great and a fun way for the showrunners to justify superman's performance throughout the show... up until he gets super jobbed by a deus ex machina item on darkseid's person just so that lex luthor could save the day and pull another deus ex machina.

I dunno if teen titans had something equivalent with raven to explain it away.

xyphilia posted...

I mean, superman's "world of cardboard" speech WAS pretty great and a fun way for the showrunners to justify superman's performance throughout the show... up until he gets super jobbed by a deus ex machina item on darkseid's person just so that lex luthor could save the day and pull another deus ex machina.

I dunno if teen titans had something equivalent with raven to explain it away.

man of culture detected

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQabrSpKcJw" data-time="

Unless we count the Raven TV nightmare episode, or the cursed book one, I can't really think of any example for her
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Yup that's the one.