Current Events > a minimum wage should be a livable wage

(+) Yeah! (+)

assuming you work full time or equivalent hours throughout the year. theres no reason for minimum wage not to be livable, even if they are a 18 year old flipping burgers at mcdonalds

and livable shouldn't be defined as "live out of your car on a diet of instant noodles and gutter mosses" just because they aren't literally dead
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Rika_Furude posted...

and livable shouldn't be defined as "live out of your car on a diet of instant noodles" just because they aren't literally dead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ElZ6DWvS2c" data-time="
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I agree, Ultima.

As long as you're working and contributing to society, I think you should be able to afford your basic necessities. Shelter, clothing, food, water, transportation, electricity.

People don't think about how integral the lowest paid people are to society. Even with automation, there will always be tasks for humans to do, and they're often things that rich people would rather not bother doing. The people who flip your burgers, wait your tables, clean your floors, scrub your toilets, cleared your gutters, collected your trash... imagine if all of them just stopped working

Society wouldn't be able to function for a while
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Too bad exploitation, sweatshops, and sickly and hungry kids are the envy of freedom loving Americans.

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.
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The only real issue with this is that if you can earn a livable wage flipper burgers, what makes people want to go out and get the better, but harder jobs?
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Bad_Mojo posted...

The only real issue with this is that if you can earn a livable wage flipper burgers, what makes people want to go out and get the better, but harder jobs?

Better than just a "livable" wage.

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

So the jobs are necessary, but the people who do them deserve poverty?
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Bad_Mojo posted...

The only real issue with this is that if you can earn a livable wage flipper burgers, what makes people want to go out and get the better, but harder jobs?

why does livable = wealthy in your eyes

you really think everyone would be satisfied living in a 1 bdrm townhouse in a dilapidated neighborhood for the rest of their lives?
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The23rdMagus posted...

Bad_Mojo posted...

The only real issue with this is that if you can earn a livable wage flipper burgers, what makes people want to go out and get the better, but harder jobs?

Better than just a "livable" wage.

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

So the jobs are necessary, but the people who do them deserve poverty?

Okay, so should everyone get a huge raise then? If I'm making a livable wage doing X after this happening and you're busting your ass doing Y, but now we're getting paid the same, but I'm still flipper burgers and you're. . .doing whatever, lol

This would make everyone have to get a raise, right? Then what happens? Stores have to pay their workers a lot more, prices go up, nothing changes.
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what the fuck are you even talking about lmfao
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Bad_Mojo posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

Bad_Mojo posted...

The only real issue with this is that if you can earn a livable wage flipper burgers, what makes people want to go out and get the better, but harder jobs?

Better than just a "livable" wage.

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

So the jobs are necessary, but the people who do them deserve poverty?

Okay, so should everyone get a huge raise then? If I'm making a livable wage doing X after this happening and you're busting your ass doing Y, but now we're getting paid the same, but I'm still flipper burgers and you're. . .doing whatever, lol

This would make everyone have to get a raise, right? Then what happens? Stores have to pay their workers a lot more, prices go up, nothing changes.

So, I wonder, what's the solution for people who work 40 hours a week to be able to have what they need to survive on their own?
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why's everyone obsessed with increasing wages and not lowering the absurd value of stuff
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

what the fuck are you even talking about lmfao

Me?

* I flip burgers and make 10$ an hour. Not something that is "livable", right?

* You work in an office making $20 an hour, something that is more livable.

* Some people in this topic - "Let's make everyone have a livable wage!"

* I flip burger and now make $20 an hour. Something that is more livable

* You work in an office and still make $20 an hour. Well, that's not fair!
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Bad_Mojo posted...

* You work in an office and still make $20 an hour. Well, that's not fair!

why
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Not all jobs deserve the same pay.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Bad_Mojo posted...

* You work in an office and still make $20 an hour. Well, that's not fair!

why

People who work in offices tend to have gone to school. People that flip burgers don't. So why would anyone want to go to school to get that office job, spend all that money, and still get paid as the drop out serving you food?
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Bad_Mojo posted...

People who work in offices tend to have gone to school. People that flip burgers don't. So why would anyone want to go to school to get that office job, spend all that money, and still get paid as the drop out serving you food?

so people who don't go to school don't deserve to have a livable wage?
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The23rdMagus posted...

So, I wonder, what's the solution for people who work 40 hours a week to be able to have what they need to survive on their own?

Take classes, learn a marketable skill, network, get experience take your new skillset and apply for better jobs. The same way everyone else does it. If you can't do this then maybe you do deserve to be poor.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

so people who don't go to school don't deserve to have a livable wage?

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it isn't an easy fix
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disdain for the poor intensifies
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Kolibri X posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

So, I wonder, what's the solution for people who work 40 hours a week to be able to have what they need to survive on their own?

Take classes, learn a marketable skill, network, get experience take your new skillset and apply for better jobs. The same way everyone else does it. If you can't do this then maybe you do deserve to be poor.

I didn't mean just poor. Poor as in unable to survive on your own despite working full-time.

Just because this is the way it is now doesn't mean it's right.
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Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

So what about us people that make a career in retail?

Is being a produce manager not a real job. Cause I did that. Got damn good money from that for 11 years.

Looking to be made store manager soon and make even better money. Is that not a real job?

I grew up in retail and chose this as my path in life. Is climbing up the tree and keep making more in this path not a real job?
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Bad_Mojo posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

so people who don't go to school don't deserve to have a livable wage?

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it isn't an easy fix

Then you're not saying anything at all and you don't really have an opinion other than "hurr poor people should suck it up their jobs suck"

That's exactly why your argument is flawed in the first place. Burgerflipper Joe is making $20 but he's still flipping burgers. I don't think McDonalds is handing out 401Ks and medical/dental plans. Not sure how the opportunity for advancement is as a Burgerflipper either.

Meanwhile Office Dave is making $20/hr but he sits in a comfy chair, gets to walk around, take a leisurely lunch, and sit in on meetings in proximity with influential or more connected people, and has a chance to parley his good work and education into a salaried position for more money. All while his company is throwing medical/dental benefits, retirement/pension funds, comping expenses occasionally, etc

Making the same =/= our jobs are the same
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Bad_Mojo posted...

The only real issue with this is that if you can earn a livable wage flipper burgers, what makes people want to go out and get the better, but harder jobs?

Competition? The market becomes saturated with burger flippers, so people start getting educated in order to be able to get better jobs.
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@YOUHAVENOHOPE

Are you trolling me or do you really not get it?
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teepan95 posted...

Competition? The market becomes saturated with burger flippers, so people start getting educated in order to be able to get better jobs.

Is that what you really want? You want a competitors markets for the easiest and simplest jobs?
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Bad_Mojo posted...

Are you trolling me or do you really not get it?

rofl

you're the one not "getting it" if you don't think the perks I listed are worth a LOT more than $20/hr at McDonalds

here's some more:

- having a regular schedule
- having regular weekends off
- having holidays off
- more sick time/leave

Poor people jobs suck
That's why rich people don't want to do them
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slimfizzle2 posted...

So what about us people that make a career in retail?

Unless you're on the way to become a store manager, don't expect a middle-class lifestyle in retail.
The23rdMagus posted...

I didn't mean just poor. Poor as in unable to survive on your own despite working full-time.

Just because this is the way it is now doesn't mean it's right.

If you want to live on your own you're going to need to aim higher and try harder. I could not afford to live on my own until I was 29. I know it feels bad to make 20k a year but these kids who think they deserve a livable wage at 21 are impatient and delusional if they think they deserve their own place with their McJob.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

I agree, Ultima.

As long as you're working and contributing to society, I think you should be able to afford your basic necessities. Shelter, clothing, food, water, transportation, electricity.

People don't think about how integral the lowest paid people are to society. Even with automation, there will always be tasks for humans to do, and they're often things that rich people would rather not bother doing. The people who flip your burgers, wait your tables, clean your floors, scrub your toilets, cleared your gutters, collected your trash... imagine if all of them just stopped working

Society wouldn't be able to function for a while

What blows me away, is that conservatives are just inherently opposed to this. They have such a contempt for human life that it baffles me. It's not even just a terrible argument of "We can't support everyone like that" (Which is hilariously false), it's about simply wanting people to suffer below them, so they feel better about themselves.

It's absolutely sickening.
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Kolibri X posted...

If you want to live on your own you're going to need to aim higher and try harder. I could not afford to live on my own until I was 29. I know it feels bad to make 20k a year but these kids who think they deserve a livable wage at 21 are impatient and delusional if they think they deserve their own place with their McJob.

But that's literally how the generation before you did it
They bought a house on a single income source, and a car, and provided for the family
and they've suckered you into believing that they didn't do it like that

that not moving out until you're 29 is normal
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

that not moving out until you're 29 is normal

Wait, you think that's normal?
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Bad_Mojo posted...

I hope I'm reading that wrong

given your previous posts just in this topic i wouldn't doubt it
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I disagree 100%.

And I have worked in/around fast food chains for many many years.

"Livable" sure, if that means they are college students bunking 5 in a house, living on Ramen and whatever restaurant they wash dishes at.

But two adults with minimum wage jobs shouldn't be trying to raise a family, or live any kind of extravagant lifestyle...nononon.

It feels so ignorant to me, thinking that a business owner must provide for people even if it means the business is failing....if the business fails, then NOBODY has a job....

That's not saying all jobs in McDonalds or w/e should be minimum. Managers at fast food joints should be making WAY WAY WAY more than they do given the effort they must put in. They are often under-staffed, work long hours (most are salaried so overtime in most states is a no) have to set an example for everyone AND do all the b/s corporate mandates that come from the top, on top of paperwork, hiring, firing, reprimands, ordering, inventory, surveillance...at Subway I also had to deal with marketing, large orders out of nowhere, had to learn to have fix equipment when I can barely tie my shoes etc etc.

The thing is, because of these super dumb wage laws, Managers at these places are the ones that get shafted because even the worst employees get paid higher than they deserve, and the employees that actually help you out and make a difference make like 10 cents more than those just doing "the bare minimum".

Honestly OP I know you're trying to help people but you're not.

As tech gets better and automation starts to take over, the economy will have to adjust and I think a lot of that will be redistribution of wealth, which I'm against 100% in theory but in practice where most of the wealth in the world is in the pockets of banks that charge you for existing essentially...well...hopefully there's a solution in there some where.

But for now it is NOT giving slackys at fast food joints more reason to **** around and not do their job cuz "we all get paid the same no matter how much we work" **** off.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Bad_Mojo posted...

I hope I'm reading that wrong

given your previous posts just in this topic i wouldn't doubt it

Yeah, I'm never going to have a conversation with you again.
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It was pretty one-sided anyhow, given you didn't respond to anything I said with any substance

And nothing of value was lost
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This is why we don't play Dota 2 together, Flare.
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F1areaGaman posted...

.

you hit pretty much every bingo spot on my "convinced rich people have the best interest of the poor in mind" card
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F1areaGaman posted...

But two adults with minimum wage jobs shouldn't be trying to....live any kind of extravagant lifestyle...nononon.

You're legitimately saying that a place to live, a car to get to work, and food on the table is an extravagant lifestyle?
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Kolibri X posted...

If you want to live on your own you're going to need to aim higher and try harder. I could not afford to live on my own until I was 29. I know it feels bad to make 20k a year but these kids who think they deserve a livable wage at 21 are impatient and delusional if they think they deserve their own place with their McJob.

But that's literally how the generation before you did it
They bought a house on a single income source, and a car, and provided for the family
and they've suckered you into believing that they didn't do it like that

that not moving out until you're 29 is normal

We live in a different era. We aren't going back to the 50s. Sorry. Parents or roommates.
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Kolibri X posted...

We live in a different era. We aren't going back to the 50s. Sorry. Parents or roommates.

I understand where you're coming from
and I don't think you're necessarily wrong

I think we just disagree fundamentally on whether or not entry level/minimum wage job workers deserve access to basic necessities

and whether or not society is in bad shape if people have to live with their parents until 29
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Kolibri X posted...

We live in a different era. We aren't going back to the 50s. Sorry. Parents or roommates.

I understand where you're coming from
and I don't think you're necessarily wrong

I think we just disagree fundamentally on whether or not entry level/minimum wage job workers deserve access to basic necessities

and whether or not society is in bad shape if people have to live with their parents until 29

People generally get what they desreve. If they think they deserve more they need to make a compelling case why. Its harder to make it on your own now for a number of reasons, but society does not owe you a 2 bedroom apt.
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jokes on you, i don't have a job!
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Kolibri X posted...

People generally get what they desreve.

I think you more accurately got the nature of our disagreement
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

I agree, Ultima.

As long as you're working and contributing to society, I think you should be able to afford your basic necessities. Shelter, clothing, food, water, transportation, electricity.

People don't think about how integral the lowest paid people are to society. Even with automation, there will always be tasks for humans to do, and they're often things that rich people would rather not bother doing. The people who flip your burgers, wait your tables, clean your floors, scrub your toilets, cleared your gutters, collected your trash... imagine if all of them just stopped working

Society wouldn't be able to function for a while

This.
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F1areaGaman posted...

It feels so ignorant to me, thinking that a business owner must provide for people even if it means the business is failing....if the business fails, then NOBODY has a job....

If a business owner can't give their employees a livable wage, the business isn't good enough.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

I agree, Ultima.

As long as you're working and contributing to society, I think you should be able to afford your basic necessities. Shelter, clothing, food, water, transportation, electricity.

People don't think about how integral the lowest paid people are to society. Even with automation, there will always be tasks for humans to do, and they're often things that rich people would rather not bother doing. The people who flip your burgers, wait your tables, clean your floors, scrub your toilets, cleared your gutters, collected your trash... imagine if all of them just stopped working

Society wouldn't be able to function for a while

I'd probably throw phone/internet in there as well (even a cheap mobile plan with 2gb or so of data), and a cheap hobby like gaming or something, and a little for self-improvement/development, whether its education or like a gym membership or something. not anything super high class obviously since its minimum wage, but enough for a single person living on their own to have at least something in their lives other than work and nothing.

but yeah, no matter how much i say something like "retail isnt a career", they are still important jobs that someone has to do and i respect them for it, and they don't deserve to live as sub-humans just because they don't earn 6 figures.
and the fact of the matter is that the only reason the majority of people work is so that they can live, so theres no real reason to provide them less than a livable wage.
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Actually, McDonalds DOES offer medical, dental, vision, and a very good 401K :3

At least the one that I used to work at (which was corporate and not a franchise). They TRIPLED the first 1% of your contribution to your 401K, and matched the next 3%.
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fuzzylittlbunny posted...

At least the one that I used to work at (which was corporate and not a franchise).

did you work for mcdonalds corporate
or did you work as a burger flipper
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Just a regular ol cashier :3
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