Current Events > Isn't "Toxic Masculinity" about negatives of "man roles"?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I keep hearing people say that it isn't true and it's just an attack on men, but it doesn't seem like that to me. For example, a girl won't date a guy because he's unable to drive. That's toxic masculinity because men are the ones that should be driving their women around.

Seems like this is a good thing, to make the gender roles bit more even. I don't see that as an attack on men, but rather women that don't date guys that don't act "manly"
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Bad_Mojo posted...

For example, a girl won't date a guy because he's unable to drive. That's toxic masculinity because men are the ones that should be driving their women around.

I don't think this counts.
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Toxic masculinity is ripping a guy for ordering a delicious fruity cocktail instead of a hur duur beer
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It's usually more between men, yeah?

Like a dad beating his kid for having girlie interests, for an admittedly extreme example.
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"Being unable to drive" doesn't turn women off because it's unmanly. It turns them off because it means he could be lazy, stupid, and/or poor. Oh, boy! What a catch!

What if I told you that it's possible to be a combination of nice, successful, and decent looking?
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You're thinking of the actual roots of the term. Now people use it as a buzz word to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean.
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While your examples are all valid it's not just about dating. It's more that social pressure to be more masculine and tough and being treated like you're a failure or less of a man if you're not. Outside of that you're correct.

I don't know why some guys get so offended over it. Just be who you want to be and don't expect everyone else to be the same. Being masculine yourself isn't toxic.
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Jiek_Fafn posted...

You're thinking of the actual roots of the term. Now people use it as a buzz word to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean.

This not sure wtf toxic masculinity is supposed to mean if boys will be boys is apparently a valid legal excuse for rape and aggravated assault.
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Darmik posted...

While your examples are all valid it's not just about dating. It's more that social pressure to be more masculine and tough and being treated like you're a failure or less of a man if you're not. Outside of that you're correct.

I don't know why some guys get so offended over it. Just be who you want to be and don't expect everyone else to be the same. Being masculine yourself isn't toxic.

It's a "swing your arms all you want unless you hit someone" situation.

Like, if you're some straight up Grizzly Adams motherfucker, cool. You do you.

Just don't get all upptity if someone isn't.
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DrizztLink posted...

Darmik posted...

While your examples are all valid it's not just about dating. It's more that social pressure to be more masculine and tough and being treated like you're a failure or less of a man if you're not. Outside of that you're correct.

I don't know why some guys get so offended over it. Just be who you want to be and don't expect everyone else to be the same. Being masculine yourself isn't toxic.

It's a "swing your arms all you want unless you hit someone" situation.

Like, if you're some straight up Grizzly Adams motherfucker, cool. You do you.

Just don't get all upptity if someone isn't.

I don't think it's just that. It's more like attacking traditionally masculine qualities are regarded as toxic under a feminist lens. Like stoicism, aggression, and capacity for violence.

If it were just about not shutting on people who aren't traditionally masculine, then I don't think we would have social critics ragging on characters like Kratos for being so toxically masculine.
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Toxic is an adjective modifying masculinity, not defining it.
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Thanks, everyone
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A girl being unwilling to date a guy who can't drive isn't so much an expectation for a gender role but a preference. Can probably be tiresome having to do all the driving

Toxic Masculinity is used at catch all now a days just to complain about males.
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cjsdowg posted...

Toxic Masculinity is used at catch all now a days just to complain about males.

This isn't accurate

There's a massive misconception on what the concept actually is. Half the people here think it's a general attack on masculinity when it isn't

"Toxic masculinity" is an extremely sexist and misandrist term. Feminists use it to attack anything remotely considered masculine. And the fact of the matter is that there are differences between men and women. There are differences between their inclinations, attitudes, and aptitudes. If one is mature enough to understand that, they'll have less trouble in life.

Toxicity or whatever you want to call it is not gendered. If you're an asshole, you're an asshole, no matter what's between your legs.
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Funbazooka posted...

"Toxic masculinity" is an extremely sexist and misandrist term. Feminists use it to attack anything remotely considered masculine.

Lol

Why does nobody know how to read

UaStankAssMofo posted...

cjsdowg posted...

Toxic Masculinity is used at catch all now a days just to complain about males.

This isn't accurate

There's a massive misconception on what the concept actually is. Half the people here think it's a general attack on masculinity when it isn't

That may be, but it's not like the people who use the term are especially fond of traditional masculinity in general. They don't usually contrast it with examples of positive masculinity.
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Esrac posted...

UaStankAssMofo posted...

cjsdowg posted...

Toxic Masculinity is used at catch all now a days just to complain about males.

This isn't accurate

There's a massive misconception on what the concept actually is. Half the people here think it's a general attack on masculinity when it isn't

That may be, but it's not like the people who use the term are especially fond of traditional masculinity in general. They don't usually contrast it with examples of positive masculinity.

To add to this; these many of the people who use that term think the term toxic femininity is just made up.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

"Being unable to drive" doesn't turn women off because it's unmanly. It turns them off because it means he could be lazy, stupid, and/or poor. Oh, boy! What a catch!

What if I told you that it's possible to be a combination of nice, successful, and decent looking?

or in my own way, scared of messing up.

UaStankAssMofo posted...

Funbazooka posted...

"Toxic masculinity" is an extremely sexist and misandrist term. Feminists use it to attack anything remotely considered masculine.

Lol

Why does nobody know how to read

But that's just that guy. He's conservative and conservatives attack anything with liberal attachment.

It's stuff like

"Man up"
"Boys will be boys"
"Men don't cry"
Hazing
etc
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Esrac posted...

It's more like attacking traditionally masculine qualities are regarded as toxic under a feminist lens.

It's not the qualities themselves. It's the social enforcement of those qualities as the ideal.

I don't think we would have social critics ragging on characters like Kratos for being so toxically masculine.

I personally shit on Kratos (pre 2018) because his masculinity directly led to unimaginable suffering on a wide scale.
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Oh yeah. That's why it's perfectly acceptable to feminists to say "toxic femininity" when referring to false rape accusations, lying about the father of their children, and using tears to get what they want. Because feminists flawlessly live up to the dictionary definition of feminism being about equality.
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I feel like another form of toxic masculinity is an old man calling me a gay slur because I'm a waiter and he didn't want me waiting on him because...I was a gay slur.

I'm not.

tennisdude818 posted...

Oh yeah. That's why it's perfectly acceptable to feminists to say "toxic femininity" when referring to false rape accusations, lying about the father of their children, and using tears to get what they want. Because feminists flawlessly live up to the dictionary definition of feminism being about equality.

there are many very toxic behaviors that women use towards each other, which WOULD be "toxic femininity". These are dumb.

Things like slut shaming each other would be toxic femininity, and that IS a problem we have as a society. Or victim blaming each other for "leading guys on" by how they acted/what they wore when they are assaulted. Or being toxic to women who choose their careers over having/raising children.

These ARE toxic, and should stop. Men have similar issues too in how we treat each other, leading to poor behaviors and decisions by men as a result of fitting into the "masculine" box that we put ourselves in.

tennisdude818 posted...

That's why it's perfectly acceptable to feminists to say "toxic femininity" when referring to false rape accusations, lying about the father of their children, and using tears to get what they want.

The difference here is that none of those scenarios you describe are seen as "the ideal" for a woman. They're all recognized as awful behavior.

That's the distinction of toxic masculinity. Getting into a fistfight to solve your problems. Shaming someone for not being tough enough. Questioning someone's sexuality as a pejorative. All negative actions that, depending on context and culture, have been seen as positives to the male ideal.

If you're desperate for a label like "toxic femininity", may I suggest things like shaming a woman for not being "ladylike" enough. Criticizing her for working instead of supporting a family. Divorcing a husband being seen as a negative because it breaks up the family.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Slut shaming is a big one. Men are expected to spread their seed, but a woman is shamed for being sexually active in society. Can't believe I forgot that.
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Fam_Fam posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Oh yeah. That's why it's perfectly acceptable to feminists to say "toxic femininity" when referring to false rape accusations, lying about the father of their children, and using tears to get what they want. Because feminists flawlessly live up to the dictionary definition of feminism being about equality.

there are many very toxic behaviors that women use towards each other, which WOULD be "toxic femininity". These are dumb.

Things like slut shaming each other would be toxic femininity, and that IS a problem we have as a society. Or victim blaming each other for "leading guys on" by how they acted/what they wore when they are assaulted. Or being toxic to women who choose their careers over having/raising children.

These ARE toxic, and should stop. Men have similar issues too in how we treat each other, leading to poor behaviors and decisions by men as a result of fitting into the "masculine" box that we put ourselves in.

I don't think you could have possibly come up with a more PC list than that.
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tennisdude818 posted...

I don't think you could have possibly come up with a more PC list than that.

lol dude can't refute so he insults.

I guess you really can't see toxic masculinity if you're looking through its lens.
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CyricZ posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

That's why it's perfectly acceptable to feminists to say "toxic femininity" when referring to false rape accusations, lying about the father of their children, and using tears to get what they want.

The difference here is that none of those scenarios you describe are seen as "the ideal" for a woman. They're all recognized as awful behavior.

That's the distinction of toxic masculinity. Getting into a fistfight to solve your problems. Shaming someone for not being tough enough. Questioning someone's sexuality as a pejorative. All negative actions that, depending on context and culture, have been seen as positives to the male ideal.

If you're desperate for a label like "toxic femininity", may I suggest things like shaming a woman for not being "ladylike" enough. Criticizing her for working instead of supporting a family. Divorcing a husband being seen as a negative because it breaks up the family.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Slut shaming is a big one. Men are expected to spread their seed, but a woman is shamed for being sexually active in society. Can't believe I forgot that.

Your post mixes schoolyard pettiness (a boy being called gay by other boys for his clothes is about as likely as a girl being mocked by other girls for having hairy arms or something) and gender roles that have a biological basis (men propose and women dispose, men have to go to war).

My original list was a valid comparison because feminists use the term "toxic masculinity" when they pretend that a rape culture exists in the US. Rapists are correctly seen as the scum of the earth, far from "the ideal".
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tennisdude818 posted...

Your post mixes schoolyard pettiness (a boy being called gay by other boys for his clothes is about as likely as a girl being mocked by other girls for having hairy arms or something) and gender roles that have a biological basis (men propose and women dispose, men have to go to war).

My original list was a valid comparison because feminists use the term "toxic masculinity" when they pretend that a rape culture exists in the US. Rapists are correctly seen as the scum of the earth, far from "the ideal".

No. He's right and you are sorely mistaken. The "schoolyard pettiness" that you mention wasn't even in his post.

And the argument from those feminists is that toxic masculinity helps to feed rape culture.

Mr_Rian posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Your post mixes schoolyard pettiness (a boy being called gay by other boys for his clothes is about as likely as a girl being mocked by other girls for having hairy arms or something) and gender roles that have a biological basis (men propose and women dispose, men have to go to war).

My original list was a valid comparison because feminists use the term "toxic masculinity" when they pretend that a rape culture exists in the US. Rapists are correctly seen as the scum of the earth, far from "the ideal".

No. He's right and you are sorely mistaken. The "schoolyard pettiness" that you mention wasn't even in his post.

I don't think it's seen as ideal for a 35 year old breadwinner to get into fist fights (unless it's obviously warranted to do so).
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tennisdude818 posted...

I don't think it's seen as ideal for a 35 year old breadwinner to get into fist fights (unless it's obviously warranted to do so).

You don't think fistfights happen between adults?

I searched "fist fight news" on Google, and the first three results it gives you reference news articles that were written in the last day. Three separate incidents. Two of them are notable because they led to shootings. The third is notable because it was a brawl between soccer fans.
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CyricZ posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I don't think it's seen as ideal for a 35 year old breadwinner to get into fist fights (unless it's obviously warranted to do so).

You don't think fistfights happen between adults?

Did I say that?
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tennisdude818 posted...

CyricZ posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I don't think it's seen as ideal for a 35 year old breadwinner to get into fist fights (unless it's obviously warranted to do so).

You don't think fistfights happen between adults?

Did I say that?

Clearly not. You just picked a very particular situation and said "this guy isn't getting into fist fights". No reference, no citation, no reason for me to take your statement as any kind of truth. So I just offered support to suggest that adults, who may be 35-year-old breadwinners for all you know, getting into fist fights is a thing that happens.
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CyricZ posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

CyricZ posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I don't think it's seen as ideal for a 35 year old breadwinner to get into fist fights (unless it's obviously warranted to do so).

You don't think fistfights happen between adults?

Did I say that?

Clearly not. You just picked a very particular situation and said "this guy isn't getting into fist fights". No reference, no citation, no reason for me to take your statement as any kind of truth. So I just offered support to suggest that adults, who may be 35-year-old breadwinners for all you know, getting into fist fights is a thing that happens.

According to you, "using tears to get what they want" was an unfair example for women because it's recognized as "awful" and not "ideal" even though it's far from uncommon. So immature men getting into fist fights over petty reasons is not similar to that? Tough guy meatheads are showing toxic masculinity, but manipulative women who take advantage of their gender to get what they want by crying aren't showing toxic femininity.
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Well you clearly muddy the message when you add the adjectives "immature" and "petty".

So let's clear it up a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJniCCuqR4" data-time="

Coward of the County: #1 country song in 1980 by the famed Kenny Rogers.

While the song starts with the message of "you don't have to fight to be a man", the song ENDS with "sometimes you have to fight when you're a man". That message being that you SHOULD fight someone if you can convince yourself it's worthwhile enough of a cause. Sure, the cause was "his wife was raped by three men", but "Tommy" could have just as easily have been murdered by those three men for trying to fist fight them for her honor. OR he could have KILLED one or more of the three men and been guilty of murder.

And look at those comments, not supporting the first anti-violence message, but supporting the later pro-violence message.

Then think about all the cases in real life where someone (a woman typically) is wronged and the boyfriend's/husband's/father's response is to haul off and beat on the perpetrator. Screw the law. Screw morals. They feel justified in leveling pain on the bad guy. Then the man is considered a hero by many for that violence.

Think about that for a bit. Really think about it.

And it's hardly the only example.
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CyricZ posted...

Well you clearly muddy the message when you add the adjectives "immature" and "petty".

So let's clear it up a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJniCCuqR4" data-time="

Coward of the County: #1 country song in 1980 by the famed Kenny Rogers.

While the song starts with the message of "you don't have to fight to be a man", the song ENDS with "sometimes you have to fight when you're a man". That message being that you SHOULD fight someone if you can convince yourself it's worthwhile enough of a cause. Sure, the cause was "his wife was raped by three men", but "Tommy" could have just as easily have been murdered by those three men for trying to fist fight them for her honor. OR he could have KILLED one or more of the three men and been guilty of murder.

And look at those comments, not supporting the first anti-violence message, but supporting the later pro-violence message.

Then think about all the cases in real life where someone (a woman typically) is wronged and the boyfriend's/husband's/father's response is to haul off and beat on the perpetrator. Screw the law. Screw morals. They feel justified in leveling pain on the bad guy. Then the man is considered a hero by many for that violence.

Think about that for a bit. Really think about it.

And it's hardly the only example.

Yeah I would fight a guy who attacked a family member. And "sometimes you have to fight when you're a man" clearly applies to war as well. That's why that I added the adjectives "immature" and "petty". Is this how low the bar for toxic masculinity has to go? For it to apply to a dad who beats the shit of a child molester, or if he shoots a home invader? That's not toxic.

Edit: To flip it back to my comparison of women using tears to get what they want, that obviously doesn't mean that women are being underhanded every time they cry. Just like men aren't being thugs every time they use force.
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I like how this topic is going way past my original question, but no one will answer me in my D&D topic

;_;
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tennisdude818 posted...

Yeah I would fight a guy who attacked a family member.

After the fact?

Remember, this isn't "I'll stop them while they're attacking the family member" this is "I'll track them down later to fight them."

Just want to make sure I understand your stance.
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CyricZ posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Yeah I would fight a guy who attacked a family member.

After the fact?

Remember, this isn't "I'll stop them while they're attacking the family member" this is "I'll track them down later to fight them."

Just want to make sure I understand your stance.

So if you're only referring to vigilante justice, I would agree that our legal system should discourage that. But those reckless acts don't arise from toxic gender roles, they arise from the gender role that says men should protect their family. Historically, that role has been a necessity.
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Asherlee10 posted...

I think there can be some toxic femininity, but it isn't nearly as impactful as toxic masculinity.

Growing up, I would occasionally get made fun of by girls for not liking dresses and dolls. As an adult, I don't really experience anything too serious, but some women get appalled that women drink beer or don't want to go to a salon. Things like that.

i think toxic femininity IS impactful. My gf is afraid of having sex before marriage because its not in alignment with what a "good girl" should do. she knows its BS, but it still bothers her enough and she has to work through it to get herself to do things.

she also feels guilty sometimes for being a career-first person, although she's within her rights to want that.

tennisdude818 posted...

So if you're only referring to vigilante justice, I would agree that our legal system should discourage that. But those reckless acts don't arise from toxic gender roles, they arise from the gender role that says men should protect their family. Historically, that role has been a necessity.

So there you go. Here's the scenario:

1) Gender role: A man should protect his family.

2) Member of family is attacked.

3) Man has failed to protect his family.

4) Vigilante justice.

While #1 on its own can be considered relatively benign, when #3 and #4 happen is where toxic masculinity factors in. At #3 is the man dealing with his perception that he has failed in his manly duty to protect his family, and the need to correct that. That leads to #4, and the man feels justified with this violent action both to satisfy his own feeling of inadequacy, and the knowledge that if he does do this there will be a percentage of the population that will consider him a hero for having done so.

Here's your example of the support for vigilante justice:
https://www.change.org/p/donald-trump-petition-to-pardon-the-dad-that-killed-his-daughter-s-rapist

That's toxic masculinity. Or at least one example of it.
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Fam_Fam posted...

i think toxic femininity IS impactful. My gf is afraid of having sex before marriage because its not in alignment with what a "good girl" should do. she knows its BS, but it still bothers her enough and she has to work through it to get herself to do things.

she also feels guilty sometimes for being a career-first person, although she's within her rights to want that.

I don't think anyone's suggesting toxic femininity can't be impactful, and it should be addressed as an aspect of mental health, but it's more about internal struggles, and less about external harmful action. Or to put it another way, I don't think toxic femininity ever led to another person's death. Comparatively, toxic masculinity is more impactful.
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I think people are ignoring the fact that 'toxic femininity" is essentially the bedrock cause for feminism...

Really strange to bring it up like it's some double standard.
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COVxy posted...

I think people are ignoring the fact that 'toxic femininity" is essentially the bedrock cause for feminism...

Really strange to bring it up like it's some double standard.

Elaborate.
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The23rdMagus posted...

COVxy posted...

I think people are ignoring the fact that 'toxic femininity" is essentially the bedrock cause for feminism...

Really strange to bring it up like it's some double standard.

Elaborate.

Feminism started as a movement fighting against harmful gender roles like expected housewife and what not. This is what the famous burning of the bras was about.
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COVxy posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

COVxy posted...

I think people are ignoring the fact that 'toxic femininity" is essentially the bedrock cause for feminism...

Really strange to bring it up like it's some double standard.

Elaborate.

Feminism started as a movement fighting against harmful gender roles like expected housewife and what not. This is what the famous burning of the bras was about.

Ah, I see. I wasn't following for a moment.
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Yes it's just about the negative ways that expected behaviors can be damaging to men and those around them
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