Current Events > A solution to the problem of long workdays, unequal power, corruption: Communism

(+) Yeah! (+)

Paragon21XX posted...

PiOverlord posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

Obligatory

I mean, all of those places did not have proper safeguards, were unorganized, and were based on reactionary movements so the leaders they put in charge had no business being there.

20th time is the charm? As if. Sometimes the best thing to do is call the whole thing a bust and fix the problems in the current system instead of trying to salvage something that's fundamentally flawed at its core.

Capitalism is fundamentally broken.
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I didn't read any of this except the OP, but this is just idealistic fantasy that only works if you assume 100% of people are inherently good people. Reality is, people are selfish and greedy, and will cheat and take advantage of others for their own gain, or there will eventually be perceived unfairness somewhere that makes people bitter (why do we care so much about THIS person's welfare and not as much as my own?). There's a reason almost all good things are eventually ruined by a few bad apples.

communism might work if it's decentralized, otherwise it'll just turn into some ugly form of authoritarian capitalism as they attempt to be recognized by their neighbors

PiOverlord posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

PiOverlord posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

Obligatory

I mean, all of those places did not have proper safeguards, were unorganized, and were based on reactionary movements so the leaders they put in charge had no business being there.

20th time is the charm? As if. Sometimes the best thing to do is call the whole thing a bust and fix the problems in the current system instead of trying to salvage something that's fundamentally flawed at its core.

Capitalism is fundamentally broken.

No it isn't. It's not perfect, but it has done far more good than bad overall, something no communist society can claim. Capitalism works for the most part because it acknowledges an individual's propensity to be selfish even when it is detrimental to do so, not deny the possibility entirely like communism does, especially in an economy limited by scarcity. You are just asking for another Holodomor unless human nature and individuality is finally included in the equation.
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PiOverlord posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

Obligatory

I mean, all of those places did not have proper safeguards, were unorganized, and were based on reactionary movements so the leaders they put in charge had no business being there.

Because they were human, and humans are selfish.

It has never worked and never will because it requires simultaneously a strong centralized government but selfless individuals to operate it.
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Capitalism creates the need to be selfish.
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QueenCarly posted...

Capitalism creates the need to be selfish.

Scarcity creates the need to be selfish.
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QueenCarly posted...

Capitalism creates the need to be selfish.

A functional set of chromosomes creates the need to be selfish.

Cut this transcendental utopian bullshit. We know communism doesn't work because it requires humans to behave and think rationally and selflessly. You're about as likely to get a cat to master underwater basket weaving.

As long as one person is more clever and has a stronger desire for success than another, there will be an impetus to possess more.
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Paragon21XX posted...

QueenCarly posted...

Capitalism creates the need to be selfish.

Scarcity creates the need to be selfish.

Which in 2018 most scarcity is artificial.
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Calwings posted...

As someone whose father and grandparents suffered through and managed to escape Fidel Castro's communist dictatorship in Cuba, I (and my entire family) would like to ever so kindly tell TC to fuck off. Communism doesn't work, and it almost never happens without becoming a dictatorship and the great majority of people being screwed over.

I'm glad your aristocratic family got their slave plantations seized by Castro, it is unfortunate they managed to escape justice though.

Arcvalons posted...

Calwings posted...

As someone whose father and grandparents suffered through and managed to escape Fidel Castro's communist dictatorship in Cuba, I (and my entire family) would like to ever so kindly tell TC to fuck off. Communism doesn't work, and it almost never happens without becoming a dictatorship and the great majority of people being screwed over.

I'm glad your aristocratic family got their slave plantations seized by Castro, it is unfortunate they managed to escape justice though.

^^^
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Yikes. This topic may not go in a good direction from here.

Look, Stalinism was bad, but I do not want that, real communism can work, even with the greed of humanity.

When the government takes the means of production, and this government is A.I, with its most basic instincts (programming) to take care of the general welfare of the people, then we can have a much more efficient, and beneficial communist government. This A.I cannot be corrupted by greed because that just will not be a part of its nature.

As for jobs like doctors, and the likes, complex machinery can take over many of the jobs that we require now, and thus we will not have to worry about a lack of available people because they see no benefit. We will get to prosper from the free-time, and pursue our own interests.

Our freedoms will stay intact, but we will create a better prison system that properly punishes the serious criminals, and rehabilitates the ones that can be reintroduced back into society. Luckily, crime will be down anyways, as people will no longer have to worry about receiving a good education, where their next meal will come from (which will not be some small bowl of rice, or a loaf of bread, but will be a satisfactory, nutritious meal), if they can afford their medication, or where they will sleep. We can put more money towards properties and roads, and people will have a much higher standard of living than we could have.

We live in a Gilded Age, where sure, we make a lot of money per person compared to most others, we have the largest economy (although soon China will pass us up, but who cares because Capitalism is not a game that is required to win to indicate who is the best country), and we have so many millionaires, but this comes at the expense of creating a larger divide in class. The reason poverty has gone down, and standards are going up is when we implement socialist ideals, but under this current administration, we will start to see the negatives go up.

Capitalism is a flawed structure, that benefits the fat cows on top, but as for us peasants, we are left the bread crumbs.
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DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

The problem with communism is that it doesn't take human behavior into account. What incentive would there be for someone to go to school for 10 years post-high school and become a doctor, just to have the same lifestyle as someone who's flipping burgers at McLenin's?

this right here.

PiOverlord posted...

DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

The problem with communism is that it doesn't take human behavior into account. What incentive would there be for someone to go to school for 10 years post-high school and become a doctor, just to have the same lifestyle as someone who's flipping burgers at McLenin's?

The desire to help, the desire to learn more about the human body, the desire to have a fulfilling career, the desire to feel important, the desire to master various skills, etc.

Flipping burgers is something that very few people actually would want to do as a career, even with the same benefits as it would only be a time-killer. The person doing it would have no self-fulfillment from such an activity, and people truly underestimate how much people care for things beyond money.

so what you are saying, and what most communists like to say is, that people will magically stop being selfish douchebags?

let me introduce you to people, since clearly you've never met any.

this is why capitalism works as it lets people be as greedy or as lazy as they want.

As I already stated, many of our jobs will be taken by machines anyways, so we will largely be free to do our own things.
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QueenCarly posted...

Which in 2018 most scarcity is artificial.

Until you make it not scarce where it's "artificially scarce" and that develops into actual scarcity

PiOverlord posted...

As I already stated, many of our jobs will be taken by machines anyways, so we will largely be free to do our own things.

AI is not near at that level. for fucks sake I still need help at self check out because those machines like to randomly spaz out or need overrides to buy bananas.

And if we ever get AI capable of running customer service desks, I am sure it will do the logical thing and commit suicide. So it take us illogical humans to still do many things.

Coffeebeanz posted...

QueenCarly posted...

Capitalism creates the need to be selfish.

A functional set of chromosomes creates the need to be selfish.

no it doesn't.

read "Mutual Aid" by Kropotkin. he was an evolutionary biologist.

Cut this transcendental utopian bullshit. We know communism doesn't work because it requires humans to behave and think rationally and selflessly. You're about as likely to get a cat to master underwater basket weaving.

communism has never been reached. socialism has failed due to outside intirference from the US

As long as one person is more clever and has a stronger desire for success than another, there will be an impetus to possess more.

someone "possessing more" than someone else is not incompatible with a communist society
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communism has never been reached. socialism has failed due to outside intirference from the US

Yes, it wasn't the inevitable collapse to corrupt authoritarianism.
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