Current Events > Cuba axes "Communist" from constitution, recognizes private property

(+) Yeah! (+)

Godnorgosh posted...

@Kazi1212

The point here is that what you are calling reasons to reject the possibility of communism are not good reasons. They are reasons to reject the possibility of communism given, say, the material conditions present in 20th-century Soviet Russia, similar to the fact that the development of capitalism would have been impossible too early in the development of feudalism.

Recognizing this fact doesn't commit you to communism, but it does commit you to historicizing the present rather than naturalizing it, and interpreting current events accordingly.

@Godnorgosh

I think the difference between us is I think the degree of pragmatism of an idea is the basis through which I decide whether its something worth committing too or are even possible. Like I said, communism seemed a far more reasonable ideology to maintain in the 20th century, that bar has dropped significantly. Im not saying communism cant ever happen, Im just saying its highley unlikely given the number of things that has to go right in the historical process for that to come to fruition. And as we have seen in the past 3 decades, history has done more to make communism less of a possibility than it was before, as you yourself have hinted at.
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Nope, it's only "outlined" in post hoc Marxist interpretations of Marx's writings. No different than post hoc interpretations of Genesis or Revelations when science revealed the truth and none of those prophesied things happened.

The Marxists in the 40s, 50s, and beyond certainly disagreed with you and were stalwart in their implementation efforts. They were optimistic and thankfully for us they declared victory prematurely, so we have evidence that the Marxist thought leaders and subject matter experts knew they were implementing it as intended.

Conservatives will still call them Communist.
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i am betrayed
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I've read most of Marx's stuff. It's mostly horse shit. It's cute that your stock deflection when someone points out it's garbage writing is "you've never read it" lmao

Marxism is a delusion. At best it is flat earthism, and at worst it is as murderous as Nazism.

silentwing26x posted...

I've read most of Marx's stuff. It's mostly horse shit. It's cute that your stock deflection when someone points out it's garbage writing is "you've never read it" lmao

Marxism is a delusion. At best it is flat earthism, and at worst it is as murderous as Nazism.

generally speaking not many political ideologies are horse shit unless you're prepared to dismiss any alternative as wrong in order to propagate the standard you prefer

just because capitalism is the mainstream doesn't mean it works, it means it won. do you think this country is "working" right now?

marxism cannot survive, but it is interesting. in the same perspective stoicism is rather interesting and sometimes helpful, but it is not applicable to our standard of life in the western world as it was not created with it in mind.
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CommunismFTW posted...

just because capitalism is the mainstream doesn't mean it works, it means it won. do you think this country is "working" right now?

It absolutely is working. That doesn't mean we can't improve things, but to say it's not working would be to ignore 150+ years of evidence. I recommend two books: 1) Enlightenment Now and 2) The Better Angels of Our Nature. Both by Steven Pinker and stuffed to the brim with high quality sources. There's so many objective measurements used to show that life is better than ever and still improving, in America and abroad.

silentwing26x posted...

It absolutely is working. That doesn't mean we can't improve things, but to say it's not working would be to ignore 150+ years of evidence. I recommend two books: 1) Enlightenment Now and 2) The Better Angels of Our Nature. Both by Steven Pinker and stuffed to the brim with high quality sources. There's so many objective measurements used to show that life is better than ever and still improving, in America and abroad.

the point you missed was that the trajectory we're on cannot be labeled as working if there are so many negatives and disparities in balance and numbers; the social model is not sustainable during booming population and migration due to changing weather or availability of work, nor is it sustainable for the environment itself due to which the absurd quality of life people have come to accept as the norm, when it would be dreamed of in godly visions three hundred years ago

i would be content owning a farm, a few animals, eating comfortably off my own work and not being even remotely close to another human being. to most people, life is unacceptable unless through phone, game, and disassociation through social media. it is this unbalance that will ultimately not work.
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silentwing26x posted...

I've read most of Marx's stuff.

I seriously doubt you've read Das Kapital.
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CommunismFTW posted...

silentwing26x posted...

It absolutely is working. That doesn't mean we can't improve things, but to say it's not working would be to ignore 150+ years of evidence. I recommend two books: 1) Enlightenment Now and 2) The Better Angels of Our Nature. Both by Steven Pinker and stuffed to the brim with high quality sources. There's so many objective measurements used to show that life is better than ever and still improving, in America and abroad.

the point you missed was that the trajectory we're on cannot be labeled as working if there are so many negatives and disparities in balance and numbers; the social model is not sustainable during booming population and migration due to changing weather or availability of work, nor is it sustainable for the environment itself due to which the absurd quality of life people have come to accept as the norm, when it would be dreamed of in godly visions three hundred years ago

i would be content owning a farm, a few animals, eating comfortably off my own work and not being even remotely close to another human being. to most people, life is unacceptable unless through phone, game, and disassociation through social media. it is this unbalance that will ultimately not work.

those books address all of these points you made, in detail. the tl;dr is that you're incredibly wrong.

here's an example: because of progress in agriculture, we were able to increase crop yield and simultaneously reduce the amount of land needed. for example, if farming didn't advance the way it has advanced, in order to produce as much food as we do now we'd have needed a land mass the size of all of Russia + America. but we were able to drastically increase yield and also reduce the amount of land needed to produce more yield. and that'll continue.

the same is true for so many other things we rely on. we've gotten better at producing everything. another example in the books is how we were once upon a time at risk of running out of some precious metals used to produce the old style of televisions. but because of market pressures, we eventually figured out a better way to make televisions using metals that are abundant throughout the whole planet.

you should read those books. you should also read Disparities and Discrimination by Thomas Sowell. the tl;dr is that disparities can occur naturally, meaning that they aren't necessarily an indication of something being broken or not working.

Kineth posted...

silentwing26x posted...

I've read most of Marx's stuff.

I seriously doubt you've read Das Kapital.

I don't care what you doubt or don't doubt. Marx's writing, including Das Kapital, is easily available on the internet. Even if I didn't read it, I could easily just go read it tomorrow morning with some coffee because of how available it is. So it's silly to try to shame me with some paranoia about how I didn't read it when I could literally read it right now if I had never done so already.

I read that bullshit a long time ago though.

I seriously doubt you could read 700 pages of hard economic theory over your morning coffee.
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silentwing26x posted...

those books address all of these points you made, in detail. the tl;dr is that you're incredibly wrong.

here's an example: because of progress in agriculture, we were able to increase crop yield and simultaneously reduce the amount of land needed. for example, if farming didn't advance the way it has advanced, in order to produce as much food as we do now we'd have needed a land mass the size of all of Russia + America. but we were able to drastically increase yield and also reduce the amount of land needed to produce more yield. and that'll continue.

the same is true for so many other things we rely on. we've gotten better at producing everything. another example in the books is how we were once upon a time at risk of running out of some precious metals used to produce the old style of televisions. but because of market pressures, we eventually figured out a better way to make televisions using metals that are abundant throughout the whole planet.

you should read those books. you should also read Disparities and Discrimination by Thomas Sowell. the tl;dr is that disparities can occur naturally, meaning that they aren't necessarily an indication of something being broken or not working.

i'll definitely add them to my list, and i appreciate the different perspective you're adopting. it is more hopeful than mine, and perhaps the levity itself can help to drive improvements to avoid impending disaster in various sectors of both the country and world. i have difficulties in seeing the realism of having our current course be altered in such a way, that the ever incredible technologies that we are using to harness the world will eventually shift courses from financial profit, to world and human life itself
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Surprising decision. Hope the best for them.

Unironic communists, Trump as leader of the free world, and the rise of the flat earthers. Truly the meme generation
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Kineth posted...

I seriously doubt you could read 700 pages of hard economic theory over your morning coffee.

I devour books and I'm on PTO, so I would definitely massacre a shit ton of literature on a good morning with some good coffee.

CommunismFTW posted...

silentwing26x posted...

those books address all of these points you made, in detail. the tl;dr is that you're incredibly wrong.

here's an example: because of progress in agriculture, we were able to increase crop yield and simultaneously reduce the amount of land needed. for example, if farming didn't advance the way it has advanced, in order to produce as much food as we do now we'd have needed a land mass the size of all of Russia + America. but we were able to drastically increase yield and also reduce the amount of land needed to produce more yield. and that'll continue.

the same is true for so many other things we rely on. we've gotten better at producing everything. another example in the books is how we were once upon a time at risk of running out of some precious metals used to produce the old style of televisions. but because of market pressures, we eventually figured out a better way to make televisions using metals that are abundant throughout the whole planet.

you should read those books. you should also read Disparities and Discrimination by Thomas Sowell. the tl;dr is that disparities can occur naturally, meaning that they aren't necessarily an indication of something being broken or not working.

i'll definitely add them to my list, and i appreciate the different perspective you're adopting. it is more hopeful than mine, and perhaps the levity itself can help to drive improvements to avoid impending disaster in various sectors of both the country and world. i have difficulties in seeing the realism of having our current course be altered in such a way, that the ever incredible technologies that we are using to harness the world will eventually shift courses from financial profit, to world and human life itself

I'm incredibly optimistic. Unbridled optimism is my modus operandi. I think you're really going to enjoy the books and I'm even willing to pay for your copy of Enlightenment Now if you'll add it to the top of your reading list.

Here's also a really optimistic talk on climate change from the man himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVfgkFaswn4" data-time="

Dragonblade01 posted...

Surprising decision. Hope the best for them.

They're already seeing the benefits of private property and the private sector. I give them another 10 years before they go the full length of abandoning the "socialist" moniker and graduating to "social democracy"

KobeSystem posted...

Unironic communists, Trump as leader of the free world, and the rise of the flat earthers. Truly the meme generation

Don't forget the anti-vaccers

Communism sucks, glad they are finally getting rid of it.

Liberals have one less fantasy island now
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silentwing26x posted...

I'm incredibly optimistic. Unbridled optimism is my modus operandi. I think you're really going to enjoy the books and I'm even willing to pay for your copy of Enlightenment Now if you'll add it to the top of your reading list.

Here's also a really optimistic talk on climate change from the man himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVfgkFaswn4" data-time="

i genuinely will buy it, i'll even shoot you a pm of it when it gets here in the next few weeks. i'm just not comfortable sharing all my information and address for shipping on ce, i've had that backfire on me before

i will watch it tonight!
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As an aside to those in favor of transitioning to a communist system: Even supposing that communism could work in a different environment (which I imagine it could), the very act of acknowledging that it can't work in the current environment is tantamount to acknowledging that it shouldn't be attempted in the current environment.

So why support its implementation?

Dragonblade01 posted...

As an aside to those in favor of transitioning to a communist system: Even supposing that communism could work in a different environment (which I imagine it could), the very act of acknowledging that it can't work in the current environment is tantamount to acknowledging that it shouldn't be attempted in the current environment.

So why support its implementation?

Literally just because they hate people who are successful and want an excuse to be violent.

silentwing26x posted...

Don't forget the anti-vaccers

I remember when memes were funny :(
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Also communism only has a chance of working in either a hivemind society or when everything is automated and capitalism wont really work anymore but we are far from that imo
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KobeSystem posted...

Also communism only has a chance of working in either a hivemind society or when everything is automated and capitalism wont really work anymore but we are far from that imo

Except it won't even be capitalism or communism when everything is automated. It'll be something entirely different because there won't be a singular means of production and there won't be a profit motive anymore.

silentwing26x posted...

KobeSystem posted...

Also communism only has a chance of working in either a hivemind society or when everything is automated and capitalism wont really work anymore but we are far from that imo

Except it won't even be capitalism or communism when everything is automated. It'll be something entirely different because there won't be a singular means of production and there won't be a profit motive anymore.

You're right I have a bad habit of conflating socialist ideals with communist ideals at times.

Damn i wish we had a longer lifespan :(
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KobeSystem posted...

Damn i wish we had a longer lifespan :(

https://metro.co.uk/2015/04/14/the-first-immortals-have-already-been-born-cambridge-scientist-claims-5149788/

KobeSystem posted...

Also communism only has a chance of working in either a hivemind society or when everything is automated and capitalism wont really work anymore but we are far from that imo

Communism can work with a steady supply of enough resources and a culture which encourages collectivism even down to the economic level (which is essentially the lack of private ownership).

Unfortunately, such a steady supply of resources is hard to come by. And such a culture becomes exponentially harder to maintain in an increasingly global capitalist society. Communist societies cannot effectively engage with capitalist societies. Furthermore, the history of governments prior to capitalism reinforced the idea of centralized authority figures, which bled into both forms of economic policy. Unfortunately again for communism, only one was able to meld with it very well during transition. Or perhaps you could say communism melded too well with classic authoritarian governments.

Honestly, I think that anything to replace capitalism will have to be something completely new. After all, the critical change will likely be a sharp decrease in human relevance to the system.

Did another Juan Carlos just happen?