Current Events > What if a girl wants an abortion but the guy don't?

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NinjaBreakfast 08/02/18 11:48:16 AM #101:	Punishment isn't the right word, agreed. But its framed as a negative consequence of the decision when in reality its nothing of the sort for those inclined to invoke it in the first place. --- https://imgur.com/nGZeEqw Do you really think you can beat me? <cite>NinjaBreakfast posted [p:906142471] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>Punishment isn't the right word, agreed. But its framed as a negative consequence of the decision when in reality its nothing of the sort for those inclined to invoke it in the first place.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Steve Nick 08/02/18 11:48:28 AM #102:	Key posted... Steve Nick posted... Key posted... NinjaBreakfast posted... Also, can you just say 'get an abortion' immediately and be able to extract yourself from child support obligations? What exactly is the enforcement of this going to look like Give a time period of like the first couple months of pregnancy where the guy can opt out of child support and all responsibility of the child. Have him also lose any custody and the ability to see the child without the mothers consent. Ok, so let me break down the pros and cons of your solution. Pros: Men have more equality and financial independence. Cons: Increased number of dead babies(the mother buckles and has an abortion) Increased number of children raised in poverty(the mother goes through with the birth and has no support) What's your preference? I'd still go with giving men the option to back out. I have no problem with abortion so increased dead babies doesnt bother me. And poverty isn't that bad I grew up in it, single mother and all. Anecdotal evidence aside if she isn't financially ready for the child and chooses to have it despite the father showing he wont support the child that's her choice and she'll have to live with it. Calling giving birth 'a choice' isn't really accurate. Having planned/protected sex is a choice, but once she's already pregnant, abortion vs no abortion probably isn't going to be decided by logical choice-making, but rather by emotion. --- This is my signature. <cite>Steve Nick posted [p:906142487] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Key posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Steve Nick posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Key posted...</cite> <quote><cite>NinjaBreakfast posted...</cite> <quote>Also, can you just say 'get an abortion' immediately and be able to extract yourself from child support obligations? What exactly is the enforcement of this going to look like</quote> Give a time period of like the first couple months of pregnancy where the guy can opt out of child support and all responsibility of the child. Have him also lose any custody and the ability to see the child without the mothers consent.</quote> Ok, so let me break down the pros and cons of your solution. Pros: Men have more equality and financial independence. Cons: Increased number of dead babies(the mother buckles and has an abortion) Increased number of children raised in poverty(the mother goes through with the birth and has no support) What's your preference?</quote> I'd still go with giving men the option to back out. I have no problem with abortion so increased dead babies doesnt bother me. And poverty isn't that bad I grew up in it, single mother and all. Anecdotal evidence aside if she isn't financially ready for the child and chooses to have it despite the father showing he wont support the child that's her choice and she'll have to live with it.</quote> Calling giving birth 'a choice' isn't really accurate. Having planned/protected sex is a choice, but once she's already pregnant, abortion vs no abortion probably isn't going to be decided by logical choice-making, but rather by emotion.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 08/02/18 11:49:54 AM #104:	Asherlee10 posted... Key posted... Asherlee10 posted... Kavatar posted... And what we have now is better than any alternative that has been suggested in this topic. I agree. Neither of you have explained how having a option for men to opt out of responsibility and custody if the kid is a problem. You've both said you dont like it and it's a problem but haven given a single reason as to why Steve Nicks post #84 sums it up well if you want the concise version. Not to sound rude, but I don't see those as being insurmountable obstacles. On the issue of "more dead babies," it's irrelevant. Abortion is morally permissible. The amount of abortions won't change that. And if we shift more of the financial burden to society as a whole, then we help reduce the impact of the father opting out. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906142560] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Key posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kavatar posted...</cite> <quote>And what we have now is better than any alternative that has been suggested in this topic. </quote> I agree.</quote> Neither of you have explained how having a option for men to opt out of responsibility and custody if the kid is a problem. You've both said you dont like it and it's a problem but haven given a single reason as to why</quote> Steve Nicks post #84 sums it up well if you want the concise version.</quote> Not to sound rude, but I don't see those as being insurmountable obstacles. On the issue of "more dead babies," it's irrelevant. Abortion is morally permissible. The amount of abortions won't change that. And if we shift more of the financial burden to society as a whole, then we help reduce the impact of the father opting out.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
RiKuToTheMiGhtY 08/02/18 11:51:07 AM #105:	She has all the rights for deciding if the baby is born or aborted, a dude can want to be a father but if she doesnt want the baby there is nothing illegal or wrong if she has an abortion. Same too if the guy does not want to be a father but she wants to keep the baby, that guy is stuck paying child support. Its pretty fucked up but no one is going to do anything about it. --- doa-plus.com - We Press Forward. . . By Pressing Back. <cite>RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted [p:906142618] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>She has all the rights for deciding if the baby is born or aborted, a dude can want to be a father but if she doesnt want the baby there is nothing illegal or wrong if she has an abortion. Same too if the guy does not want to be a father but she wants to keep the baby, that guy is stuck paying child support. Its pretty fucked up but no one is going to do anything about it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Key 08/02/18 11:51:18 AM #106:	Asherlee10 posted... Key posted... And poverty isn't that bad I grew up in it, single mother and all. hey it's true and I gave my reason for not having a problem with it outside of my own experience. If she chooses to have the child when shes not financially ready. then threats her choice but her living in poverty is no one fault but her own --- <:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;}]\\\\\\O=('-'Q) (>'-')> <('-'<) ^( '-' )^ v( '-' )v <('-'<) ^(_ _)^ (>'-')> ^(^-^) <cite>Key posted [p:906142627] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Key posted...</cite> <quote>And poverty isn't that bad I grew up in it, single mother and all. </quote> </quote> hey it's true and I gave my reason for not having a problem with it outside of my own experience. If she chooses to have the child when shes not financially ready. then threats her choice but her living in poverty is no one fault but her own</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Key 08/02/18 11:54:28 AM #107:	Steve Nick posted... Calling giving birth 'a choice' isn't really accurate. Having planned/protected sex is a choice, but once she's already pregnant, abortion vs no abortion probably isn't going to be decided by logical choice-making, but rather by emotion. an emotionally charged choice is still a choice. if she wants to keep the child because of a emotional hang up she has with abortion that's on her. it shouldn't be anyone else responsibility --- <:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;}]\\\\\\O=('-'Q) (>'-')> <('-'<) ^( '-' )^ v( '-' )v <('-'<) ^(_ _)^ (>'-')> ^(^-^) <cite>Key posted [p:906142791] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Steve Nick posted...</cite> <quote>Calling giving birth 'a choice' isn't really accurate. Having planned/protected sex is a choice, but once she's already pregnant, abortion vs no abortion probably isn't going to be decided by logical choice-making, but rather by emotion.</quote> an emotionally charged choice is still a choice. if she wants to keep the child because of a emotional hang up she has with abortion that's on her. it shouldn't be anyone else responsibility</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 08/02/18 11:55:12 AM #108:	Kavatar posted... So suck it up, men, and stop crying. It's still worth mentioning. It's an injustice. Men might ultimately have to suck it up, but I think it's wrong to stay silent when you see an injustice simply being accepted as an inevitable thing to suffer through. <cite>Cocytus posted [p:906142835] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kavatar posted...</cite> <quote>So suck it up, men, and stop crying.</quote> It's still worth mentioning. It's an injustice. Men might ultimately have to suck it up, but I think it's wrong to stay silent when you see an injustice simply being accepted as an inevitable thing to suffer through.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zeeak4444 08/02/18 11:55:29 AM #109:	Asherlee10 posted... Zeeak4444 posted... Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do. This is the bottom line. I don't think anyone thinks the current procedures are 100% great, but it's the best we have and the alternatives are worse. Agreed. The only thing I would argue needs to be revamped/refined is custodial rights. Those cases can be extremely controversial. It's a rough topic all around though so I'm happy and surprised to see how well CEs discussion has actually been in here. --- Typical gameFAQers are "Complainers that always complain about those who complain about real legitimate complaints."-Joker_X <cite>Zeeak4444 posted [p:906142853] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Zeeak4444 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do.</quote> This is the bottom line. I don't think anyone thinks the current procedures are 100% great, but it's the best we have and the alternatives are worse.</quote> Agreed. The only thing I would argue needs to be revamped/refined is custodial rights. Those cases can be extremely controversial. It's a rough topic all around though so I'm happy and surprised to see how well CEs discussion has actually been in here.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 08/02/18 11:58:13 AM #110:	Samurontai posted... Her body, her choice seems to be the only truly fair route when it comes to pregnancy. Why doesn't anyone ever say "his seed, his kid" in this scenario...? If a guy doesn't want to see his baby aborted, why is that something that should just go on being ignored? <cite>Cocytus posted [p:906142976] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Samurontai posted...</cite> <quote>Her body, her choice seems to be the only truly fair route when it comes to pregnancy. </quote> Why doesn't anyone ever say "his seed, his kid" in this scenario...? If a guy doesn't want to see his baby aborted, why is that something that should just go on being ignored?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 08/02/18 11:59:27 AM #113:	Zeeak4444 posted... Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do. In the context of abortion, sure. But if you allow to-be-parents a means to preemptively extricate themselves from parental responsibility, then you can at least prevent a lot of situations where someone feels completely trapped. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143039] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Zeeak4444 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do.</quote> In the context of abortion, sure. But if you allow to-be-parents a means to preemptively extricate themselves from parental responsibility, then you can at least prevent a lot of situations where someone feels completely trapped.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
eston 08/02/18 12:00:22 PM #114:	The idea of a man being able to opt out is based on false equivalency. People who hold this view tend to think of an abortion as opting out, but it is not. Abortions are kind of a big fucking deal. For a woman, she can either - carry the baby to term and go through labor - have an abortion For a man, he can - choose to be an active part of this child's life - pay a set amount of money every month Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence? --- http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i215/estonc/grizzly_bear_chairs_2.jpg https://imgur.com/8kjZU <cite>eston posted [p:906143080] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>The idea of a man being able to opt out is based on false equivalency. People who hold this view tend to think of an abortion as opting out, but it is not. Abortions are kind of a big fucking deal. For a woman, she can either - carry the baby to term and go through labor - have an abortion For a man, he can - choose to be an active part of this child's life - pay a set amount of money every month Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 08/02/18 12:00:58 PM #115:	GATTJT posted... I'm all for men being able to opt out of child support but only if they relinquish any and all rights to the child. That means they can't see them, claim them in anything, etc. That sounds fair to me. <cite>Cocytus posted [p:906143101] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>GATTJT posted...</cite> <quote>I'm all for men being able to opt out of child support but only if they relinquish any and all rights to the child. That means they can't see them, claim them in anything, etc.</quote> That sounds fair to me.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SuperMedz3 08/02/18 12:01:25 PM #116:	The woman has all the say while the man has no say. Thanks patriarchy --- Now playing Fallout 4 <cite>SuperMedz3 posted [p:906143121] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>The woman has all the say while the man has no say. Thanks patriarchy</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:02:21 PM #118:	Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... Asherlee10 posted... Key posted... Asherlee10 posted... Kavatar posted... And what we have now is better than any alternative that has been suggested in this topic. I agree. Neither of you have explained how having a option for men to opt out of responsibility and custody if the kid is a problem. You've both said you dont like it and it's a problem but haven given a single reason as to why Steve Nicks post #84 sums it up well if you want the concise version. Not to sound rude, but I don't see those as being insurmountable obstacles. On the issue of "more dead babies," it's irrelevant. Abortion is morally permissible. The amount of abortions won't change that. And if we shift more of the financial burden to society as a whole, then we help reduce the impact of the father opting out. Personally, it isn't an issue of abortion itself. I'm 100% pro-choice. But an increase of abortions will definitely put a strain on social programs and costs. We are no position for that. All the suggestions I've seen in this topic as alternatives to our current system basically just attempt to shift the responsibility from the father to the state. The finances still have to come from somewhere and it makes more sense that the 2 parties involved making the child end up footing the bill in most cases. I fully understand that this will never be a fair scenario, but it comes to this because the woman carries the baby to term or has an abortion. That gives precedence over everything else. The father, in turn, has to live with the decision. Again, it would be best if both parties make a decision together but that won't always happen. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the state to shoulder more responsibility for children. After all, children aren't just the children of their parents. They're also the future of the country. The state has a vested interested in these children. I also don't think that you solve problem by just focusing on the specific issue. If other things need to be improved or adjusted in order to make room for these specific improvements, I think it's worth it. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143169] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Key posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kavatar posted...</cite> <quote>And what we have now is better than any alternative that has been suggested in this topic. </quote> I agree.</quote> Neither of you have explained how having a option for men to opt out of responsibility and custody if the kid is a problem. You've both said you dont like it and it's a problem but haven given a single reason as to why</quote> Steve Nicks post #84 sums it up well if you want the concise version.</quote> Not to sound rude, but I don't see those as being insurmountable obstacles. On the issue of "more dead babies," it's irrelevant. Abortion is morally permissible. The amount of abortions won't change that. And if we shift more of the financial burden to society as a whole, then we help reduce the impact of the father opting out.</quote> Personally, it isn't an issue of abortion itself. I'm 100% pro-choice. But an increase of abortions will definitely put a strain on social programs and costs. We are no position for that. All the suggestions I've seen in this topic as alternatives to our current system basically just attempt to shift the responsibility from the father to the state. The finances still have to come from somewhere and it makes more sense that the 2 parties involved making the child end up footing the bill in most cases. I fully understand that this will never be a fair scenario, but it comes to this because the woman carries the baby to term or has an abortion. That gives precedence over everything else. The father, in turn, has to live with the decision. Again, it would be best if both parties make a decision together but that won't always happen.</quote> I think it's perfectly reasonable for the state to shoulder more responsibility for children. After all, children aren't just the children of their parents. They're also the future of the country. The state has a vested interested in these children. I also don't think that you solve problem by just focusing on the specific issue. If other things need to be improved or adjusted in order to make room for these specific improvements, I think it's worth it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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creativerealms 08/02/18 12:03:01 PM #120:	If they are married? The choice is both of theirs. --- No sig. <cite>creativerealms posted [p:906143211] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>If they are married? The choice is both of theirs.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:03:11 PM #121:	Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... Zeeak4444 posted... Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do. In the context of abortion, sure. But if you allow to-be-parents a means to preemptively extricate themselves from parental responsibility, then you can at least prevent a lot of situations where someone feels completely trapped. Unfortunately, the feeling of being 'trapped' is the consequence of these choices. And sometimes we provide means for people to extricate themselves from traps. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143219] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Zeeak4444 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do.</quote> In the context of abortion, sure. But if you allow to-be-parents a means to preemptively extricate themselves from parental responsibility, then you can at least prevent a lot of situations where someone feels completely trapped.</quote> Unfortunately, the feeling of being 'trapped' is the consequence of these choices.</quote> And sometimes we provide means for people to extricate themselves from traps.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Key 08/02/18 12:04:38 PM #124:	eston posted... Abortions are kind of a big fucking deal. only because of emotional hangups that mean nothing in reality. eston posted... For a man, he can - choose to be an active part of this child's life - pay a set amount of money every month both of these leave the man taking care of the kid in some way regardless if he wants or cares about the kid. eston posted... For a woman, she can either - carry the baby to term and go through labor - have an abortion where here the woman only has the child if she so choses. --- <:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;}]\\\\\\O=('-'Q) (>'-')> <('-'<) ^( '-' )^ v( '-' )v <('-'<) ^(_ _)^ (>'-')> ^(^-^) <cite>Key posted [p:906143296] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>Abortions are kind of a big fucking deal.</quote> only because of emotional hangups that mean nothing in reality. <cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>For a man, he can - choose to be an active part of this child's life - pay a set amount of money every month</quote> both of these leave the man taking care of the kid in some way regardless if he wants or cares about the kid. <cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>For a woman, she can either - carry the baby to term and go through labor - have an abortion</quote> where here the woman only has the child if she so choses.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:05:06 PM #125:	eston posted... Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence? Because if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I would rather that person have the option not to be involved. And so, I'm in favor of systems where, at least to some extent, such an option can be provided. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143325] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence?</quote> Because if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I would rather that person have the option not to be involved. And so, I'm in favor of systems where, at least to some extent, such an option can be provided.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:06:11 PM #126:	Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... Zeeak4444 posted... Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do. In the context of abortion, sure. But if you allow to-be-parents a means to preemptively extricate themselves from parental responsibility, then you can at least prevent a lot of situations where someone feels completely trapped. Unfortunately, the feeling of being 'trapped' is the consequence of these choices. And sometimes we provide means for people to extricate themselves from traps. Not in this case. I'm not at all convinced it isn't feasible. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143371] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Zeeak4444 posted...</cite> <quote>Like I said I don't think there's a better alternative but it's still a shitty situation. If you knock a girl up pray that shit works out and you're both on the same page. That's about all you can do.</quote> In the context of abortion, sure. But if you allow to-be-parents a means to preemptively extricate themselves from parental responsibility, then you can at least prevent a lot of situations where someone feels completely trapped.</quote> Unfortunately, the feeling of being 'trapped' is the consequence of these choices.</quote> And sometimes we provide means for people to extricate themselves from traps.</quote> Not in this case.</quote> I'm not at all convinced it isn't feasible.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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RiKuToTheMiGhtY 08/02/18 12:07:59 PM #129:	@Key They expect the man to pay one way or another, a woman just has to give birth which while painful is not as painful as a man getting fucked for 18 years financially. Why do you think some men are crazy enough to take jail time for killing thr baby over paying money out for 18 years ?? --- doa-plus.com - We Press Forward. . . By Pressing Back. <cite>RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted [p:906143467] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>@Key They expect the man to pay one way or another, a woman just has to give birth which while painful is not as painful as a man getting fucked for 18 years financially. Why do you think some men are crazy enough to take jail time for killing thr baby over paying money out for 18 years ??</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Zeeak4444 08/02/18 12:08:28 PM #131:	Key posted... eston posted... Abortions are kind of a big fucking deal. only because of emotional hangups that mean nothing in reality. eston posted... For a man, he can - choose to be an active part of this child's life - pay a set amount of money every month both of these leave the man taking care of the kid in some way regardless if he wants or cares about the kid. eston posted... For a woman, she can either - carry the baby to term and go through labor - have an abortion where here the woman only has the child if she so choses. If it's an emotional Hangup that means nothing it's only fair to say the money issue is an emotional hangup that means nothing. So everything's square. --- Typical gameFAQers are "Complainers that always complain about those who complain about real legitimate complaints."-Joker_X <cite>Zeeak4444 posted [p:906143486] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Key posted...</cite> <quote><cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>Abortions are kind of a big fucking deal.</quote> only because of emotional hangups that mean nothing in reality. <cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>For a man, he can - choose to be an active part of this child's life - pay a set amount of money every month</quote> both of these leave the man taking care of the kid in some way regardless if he wants or cares about the kid. <cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>For a woman, she can either - carry the baby to term and go through labor - have an abortion</quote> where here the woman only has the child if she so choses.</quote> If it's an emotional Hangup that means nothing it's only fair to say the money issue is an emotional hangup that means nothing. So everything's square.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:08:50 PM #132:	Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... I think it's perfectly reasonable for the state to shoulder more responsibility for children. After all, children aren't just the children of their parents. They're also the future of the country. The state has a vested interested in these children. I also don't think that you solve problem by just focusing on the specific issue. If other things need to be improved or adjusted in order to make room for these specific improvements, I think it's worth it. Shirking the responsibility of children you bring into this world causes a lot of problems in terms of social programs, upbringing, funding, etc. To speak bluntly, you don't get to impregnate women and then walk away scot-free. Asherlee10 posted... Because you don't get to take part in 'making a baby' and then decide you don't want to play house anymore and walk away scot-free. This is not a question of people shirking responsibility. This is a question of whether or not we can provide a system where those who are not ready to be parents have a means to extricate themselves from the situation. And I'm not convinced we can't create such a system. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143509] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote>I think it's perfectly reasonable for the state to shoulder more responsibility for children. After all, children aren't just the children of their parents. They're also the future of the country. The state has a vested interested in these children. I also don't think that you solve problem by just focusing on the specific issue. If other things need to be improved or adjusted in order to make room for these specific improvements, I think it's worth it.</quote> Shirking the responsibility of children you bring into this world causes a lot of problems in terms of social programs, upbringing, funding, etc. To speak bluntly, you don't get to impregnate women and then walk away scot-free.</quote> <cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote>Because you don't get to take part in 'making a baby' and then decide you don't want to play house anymore and walk away scot-free.</quote> This is not a question of people shirking responsibility. This is a question of whether or not we can provide a system where those who are not ready to be parents have a means to extricate themselves from the situation. And I'm not convinced we can't create such a system.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:10:12 PM #133:	Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... eston posted... Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence? Because if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I would rather that person have the option not to be involved. And so, I'm in favor of systems where, at least to some extent, such an option can be provided. You don't have to be a parent, but you still have to financially support a child you make. Only in a system that requires it. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143575] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence?</quote> Because if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I would rather that person have the option not to be involved. And so, I'm in favor of systems where, at least to some extent, such an option can be provided.</quote> You don't have to be a parent, but you still have to financially support a child you make.</quote> Only in a system that requires it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 08/02/18 12:12:10 PM #134:	Asherlee10 posted... Cocytus posted... Samurontai posted... Her body, her choice seems to be the only truly fair route when it comes to pregnancy. Why doesn't anyone ever say "his seed, his kid" in this scenario...? If a guy doesn't want to see his baby aborted, why is that something that should just go on being ignored? Because the father doesn't go through the pregnancy. Yet if not for him she wouldn't be pregnant. And you mean he doesn't physically go through the pregnancy by carrying the baby to term and giving birth to the baby. But I think it's a huge error to say that the man doesn't go through the pregnancy. What the hell is he around for then? He gets her pregnant then he goes through it too, maybe not physically, but he has a stake in the deal to say the least. <cite>Cocytus posted [p:906143669] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Cocytus posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Samurontai posted...</cite> <quote>Her body, her choice seems to be the only truly fair route when it comes to pregnancy. </quote> Why doesn't anyone ever say "his seed, his kid" in this scenario...? If a guy doesn't want to see his baby aborted, why is that something that should just go on being ignored?</quote> Because the father doesn't go through the pregnancy.</quote> Yet if not for him she wouldn't be pregnant. And you mean he doesn't physically go through the pregnancy by carrying the baby to term and giving birth to the baby. But I think it's a huge error to say that the man doesn't go through the pregnancy. What the hell is he around for then? He gets her pregnant then he goes through it too, maybe not physically, but he has a stake in the deal to say the least.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:13:14 PM #135:	Cocytus posted... Asherlee10 posted... Cocytus posted... Samurontai posted... Her body, her choice seems to be the only truly fair route when it comes to pregnancy. Why doesn't anyone ever say "his seed, his kid" in this scenario...? If a guy doesn't want to see his baby aborted, why is that something that should just go on being ignored? Because the father doesn't go through the pregnancy. Yet if not for him she wouldn't be pregnant. And you mean he doesn't physically go through the pregnancy by carrying the baby to term and giving birth to the baby. But I think it's a huge error to say that the man doesn't go through the pregnancy. What the hell is he around for then? He gets her pregnant then he goes through it too, maybe not physically, but he has a stake in the deal to say the least. The reason that the mother is allowed to get an abortion is the very fact that the fetus does not have a right to be inside the mother without her permission. The father has no role in the question of abortion. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906143709] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Cocytus posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Cocytus posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Samurontai posted...</cite> <quote>Her body, her choice seems to be the only truly fair route when it comes to pregnancy. </quote> Why doesn't anyone ever say "his seed, his kid" in this scenario...? If a guy doesn't want to see his baby aborted, why is that something that should just go on being ignored?</quote> Because the father doesn't go through the pregnancy.</quote> Yet if not for him she wouldn't be pregnant. And you mean he doesn't physically go through the pregnancy by carrying the baby to term and giving birth to the baby. But I think it's a huge error to say that the man doesn't go through the pregnancy. What the hell is he around for then? He gets her pregnant then he goes through it too, maybe not physically, but he has a stake in the deal to say the least.</quote> The reason that the mother is allowed to get an abortion is the very fact that the fetus does not have a right to be inside the mother without her permission. The father has no role in the question of abortion.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SuperMedz3 08/02/18 12:14:13 PM #136:	Should it be the choice of the life if it wants to live or die? --- Now playing Fallout 4 <cite>SuperMedz3 posted [p:906143751] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>Should it be the choice of the life if it wants to live or die?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dyinglegacy 08/02/18 12:14:58 PM #137:	Ideally, this scenario should never occure. People who don't want children should practice safe sex, and we should provide an easy an accessible means for that. Most unwanted pregnancies come about through carelessness. If the male uses a condom, and the female is on birth control, that mostly eradicates unwanted pregnancies. However, people don't think before they act. If you are sexually promiscuous (like to sleep around) or a sexual active (with one partner) individual, and you do not want a child, there is no reason that you should not be praciticing safe sex. Abortion, by definition, is not murder. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another human. Abortion is not illegal, so it's impossible for it to be murder. If it were illegal, then it would be murder, as the thing that's being terminated is undoubtably human, and it is being done premeditatedly. That is not to say that abortion isn't a morally gray area, especially depending on who you talk to. I personally feel that abortion is acceptable up to a certain point. If it's the first few weeks of detectability? Sure, why not? If it's 6 months in and you decide to abort? Fuck you, scum monster. I want no part of it. --- Voted worst user on CE 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 Current e-argument streak: 0 wins. 25402 losses. <cite>Dyinglegacy posted [p:906143791] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote>Ideally, this scenario should never occure. People who don't want children should practice safe sex, and we should provide an easy an accessible means for that. Most unwanted pregnancies come about through carelessness. If the male uses a condom, and the female is on birth control, that mostly eradicates unwanted pregnancies. However, people don't think before they act. If you are sexually promiscuous (like to sleep around) or a sexual active (with one partner) individual, and you do not want a child, there is no reason that you should not be praciticing safe sex. Abortion, by definition, is not murder. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another human. Abortion is not illegal, so it's impossible for it to be murder. If it were illegal, then it would be murder, as the thing that's being terminated is undoubtably human, and it is being done premeditatedly. That is not to say that abortion isn't a morally gray area, especially depending on who you talk to. I personally feel that abortion is acceptable up to a certain point. If it's the first few weeks of detectability? Sure, why not? If it's 6 months in and you decide to abort? Fuck you, scum monster. I want no part of it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NinjaBreakfast 08/02/18 12:15:46 PM #138:	RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted... @Key They expect the man to pay one way or another, a woman just has to give birth which while painful is not as painful as a man getting fucked for 18 years financially. Why do you think some men are crazy enough to take jail time for killing thr baby over paying money out for 18 years ?? --- https://imgur.com/nGZeEqw Do you really think you can beat me? <cite>NinjaBreakfast posted [p:906143833] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...</cite> <quote>@Key They expect the man to pay one way or another, a woman just has to give birth which while painful is not as painful as a man getting fucked for 18 years financially. Why do you think some men are crazy enough to take jail time for killing thr baby over paying money out for 18 years ??</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Key 08/02/18 12:19:13 PM #141:	Asherlee10 posted... Please don't downplay the emotional and physical impacts abortion has on someone. That is unreasonable. the physical impacts are temporary and minor. The emotional impacts mean nothing and vary from person to person. Asherlee10 posted... Of course it does, the father played a role in creating the child Doesnt matter he shouldn't be legally responsible for the child he never wanted to have. I'll admit he should never be able to force her to have a kid she doesnt want but I dont believe he should have to take care of a kid financially that he never wanted. Zeeak4444 posted... If it's an emotional Hangup that means nothing it's only fair to say the money issue is an emotional hangup that means nothing. So everything's square. It's a financial burden not a emotional hang up --- <:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;}]\\\\\\O=('-'Q) (>'-')> <('-'<) ^( '-' )^ v( '-' )v <('-'<) ^(_ _)^ (>'-')> ^(^-^) <cite>Key posted [p:906144000] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote>Please don't downplay the emotional and physical impacts abortion has on someone. That is unreasonable.</quote> the physical impacts are temporary and minor. The emotional impacts mean nothing and vary from person to person. <cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote> Of course it does, the father played a role in creating the child</quote> Doesnt matter he shouldn't be legally responsible for the child he never wanted to have. I'll admit he should never be able to force her to have a kid she doesnt want but I dont believe he should have to take care of a kid financially that he never wanted. <cite>Zeeak4444 posted...</cite> <quote>If it's an emotional Hangup that means nothing it's only fair to say the money issue is an emotional hangup that means nothing. So everything's square.</quote> It's a financial burden not a emotional hang up</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:20:17 PM #143:	Asherlee10 posted... I don't see how there could be a feasible system to accommodate that, because it is shirking responsibility, I'm sorry to say. If the father is not ready to be a parent, he has to learn to be ready or have a discussion with the mother. Whether or not the father is shirking responsibility has literally no bearing on whether or not it's feasible to create such a system. Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... Asherlee10 posted... Dragonblade01 posted... eston posted... Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence? Because if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I would rather that person have the option not to be involved. And so, I'm in favor of systems where, at least to some extent, such an option can be provided. You don't have to be a parent, but you still have to financially support a child you make. Only in a system that requires it. That's the system we have, I don't understand what you mean here. ...everything I've done in this topic has been talking about what a different system might look like. <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906144046] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote>I don't see how there could be a feasible system to accommodate that, because it is shirking responsibility, I'm sorry to say. If the father is not ready to be a parent, he has to learn to be ready or have a discussion with the mother.</quote> Whether or not the father is shirking responsibility has literally no bearing on whether or not it's feasible to create such a system. <cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>eston posted...</cite> <quote>Why does anyone think it would be okay to give men an option to simply walk away with zero consequence?</quote> Because if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I would rather that person have the option not to be involved. And so, I'm in favor of systems where, at least to some extent, such an option can be provided.</quote> You don't have to be a parent, but you still have to financially support a child you make.</quote> Only in a system that requires it.</quote> That's the system we have, I don't understand what you mean here.</quote> ...everything I've done in this topic has been talking about what a different system might look like.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Key 08/02/18 12:21:45 PM #145:	Dyinglegacy posted... I personally feel that abortion is acceptable up to a certain point. If it's the first few weeks of detectability? Sure, why not? If it's 6 months in and you decide to abort? Fuck you, scum monster. I want no part of it. I never understood why peoples stance on abortion changed in later points or pregnancy --- <:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;}]\\\\\\O=('-'Q) (>'-')> <('-'<) ^( '-' )^ v( '-' )v <('-'<) ^(_ _)^ (>'-')> ^(^-^) <cite>Key posted [p:906144126] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Dyinglegacy posted...</cite> <quote>I personally feel that abortion is acceptable up to a certain point. If it's the first few weeks of detectability? Sure, why not? If it's 6 months in and you decide to abort? Fuck you, scum monster. I want no part of it.</quote> I never understood why peoples stance on abortion changed in later points or pregnancy</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 08/02/18 12:23:40 PM #147:	Dragonblade01 posted... The father has no role in the question of abortion. You're basically saying that a father has no role in the baby he made with the mother. He does have a say in it. That's what the the whole OP is about, what recourse does a father have to save a baby he wants when the mother doesn't. If a man makes a baby, he does have at least some right to say that he wants the kid. That is, in part, the father's role in a potential abortion. He has a right to object. He has a right to try and save the baby he made. It's not ultimately his decision, but he does have a say in it at the very least. <cite>Cocytus posted [p:906144217] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote>The father has no role in the question of abortion.</quote> You're basically saying that a father has no role in the baby he made with the mother. He does have a say in it. That's what the the whole OP is about, what recourse does a father have to save a baby he wants when the mother doesn't. If a man makes a baby, he does have at least some right to say that he wants the kid. That is, in part, the father's role in a potential abortion. He has a right to object. He has a right to try and save the baby he made. It's not ultimately his decision, but he does have a say in it at the very least.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 08/02/18 12:25:25 PM #149:	Cocytus posted... Dragonblade01 posted... The father has no role in the question of abortion. You're basically saying that a father has no role in the baby he made with the mother. He does have a say in it. That's what the the whole OP is about, what recourse does a father have to save a baby he wants when the mother doesn't. If a man makes a baby, he does have at least some right to say that he wants the kid. That is, in part, the father's role in a potential abortion. He has a right to object. He has a right to try and save the baby he made. It's not ultimately his decision, but he does have a say in it at the very least. Incorrect. I'm saying that the father has no role in the question of abortion. Because the question of abortion is not "How did the baby get in the mother?" The question of abortion is "Does the mother permit the baby remain in her body?" <cite>Dragonblade01 posted [p:906144304] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Cocytus posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dragonblade01 posted...</cite> <quote>The father has no role in the question of abortion.</quote> You're basically saying that a father has no role in the baby he made with the mother. He does have a say in it. That's what the the whole OP is about, what recourse does a father have to save a baby he wants when the mother doesn't. If a man makes a baby, he does have at least some right to say that he wants the kid. That is, in part, the father's role in a potential abortion. He has a right to object. He has a right to try and save the baby he made. It's not ultimately his decision, but he does have a say in it at the very least.</quote> Incorrect. I'm saying that the father has no role in the question of abortion. Because the question of abortion is not "How did the baby get in the mother?" The question of abortion is "Does the mother permit the baby remain in her body?"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cocytus 08/02/18 12:25:51 PM #150:	Asherlee10 posted... The father doesn't go through the pregnancy and nor is he required to be a part of any of it. Then why do the courts make him pay for it? <cite>Cocytus posted [p:906144327] in What if a ... [t:76863887]...</cite> <quote><cite>Asherlee10 posted...</cite> <quote>The father doesn't go through the pregnancy and nor is he required to be a part of any of it.</quote> Then why do the courts make him pay for it?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > What if a girl wants an abortion but the guy don't? (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > What if a girl wants an abortion but the guy don't?