Board 8 > Telltale Games is shutting down

(+) Yeah! (+)

First world of the first world, then. I'm just not buying the sob story that these employees are relocating to live paycheck to paycheck in terrible working conditions. The conditions are probably deep into the top half of jobs in the US and even low end jobs in that field should have a good amount of breathing room to not need to live paycheck to paycheck unless they're living paycheck to paycheck in a 3 bedroom condos without any roommates. I've had programming jobs and yeah sometimes you need to work a good amount of overtime but I'd still call it a more pleasant type of overtime than a lot of other fields would throw you into.

And really any way you slice it they chose to be in that job for some reason, and when one of the first complaints is "I depend on the health insurance that comes with my job" when a ton of jobs even good ones don't give you that it strains credibility.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

Also telling someone who has a passion for games and WANTS to be in the industry despite various workplace problems "no shut up just get another job in a different career" is like....just brushing shit under the carpet I feel.

An actual problem solving method would be working towards change and improvements in the industry, and maybe considering unions and stuff.

Right, and I really take her tweet as saying We were willing to put up with shit like crunch for a paycheck to do what we loved, but who the hell are you to ask that we do that on our own for free?
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Lopen posted...

First world of the first world, then. I'm just not buying the sob story that these employees are relocating to live paycheck to paycheck in terrible working conditions. The conditions are probably deep into the top half of jobs in the US and even low end jobs in that field should have a good amount of breathing room to not need to live paycheck to paycheck unless they're living paycheck to paycheck in a 3 bedroom condos without any roommates. I've had programming jobs and yeah sometimes you need to work a good amount of overtime but I'd still call it a more pleasant type of overtime than a lot of other fields would throw you into.

And really any way you slice it they chose to be in that job for some reason, and when one of the first complaints is "I depend on the health insurance that comes with my job" when a ton of jobs even good ones don't give you that it strains credibility.

In this particular instance, I think the better part of valor is to recognize that a setback is a setback and job loss is job loss.
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"you shouldnt complain about having someone cut off your arms because there are people with no arms or legs"
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Lopen posted...

I'm just not buying the sob story that these employees are relocating to live paycheck to paycheck in terrible working conditions. The conditions are probably deep into the top half of jobs in the US and even low end jobs in that field should have a good amount of breathing room to not need to live paycheck to paycheck unless they're living paycheck to paycheck in a 3 bedroom condos without any roommates.

Thank you for Lopensplaining

Lopen posted...

And really any way you slice it they chose to be in that job for some reason, and when one of the first complaints is "I depend on the health insurance that comes with my job" when a ton of jobs even good ones don't give you that it strains credibility.

WTF is this take? Suck it up and deal with not being able to afford health care like the rest of us? Wow
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopensplaining

Okay, this is a great term. I legit cracked up.
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yea that's not too shabby
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I'm not saying it doesn't suck that they lost their jobs to some extent (though I agree with Weaku that a company that isn't profitable not staying in business is something I can only be so upset about).

I just think her attitude comes off as that of an entitled person almost as much as the gamer that asks them to finish it up for free does.

Like forget cut off arms. Her job is probably like a stubbed toe that she chose to inflict upon herself. At some point in life you need to own what you're doing. You chose to take a less profitable path because of your passion, lack of ambition, lack of skill, or whatever else, but to some extent when you're at that rung of the employment totem pole it's always on you.
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She shouldn't be penalized for bad management thought. You choose to work at a company that doesn't disclose its financials necessarily. There was an appearance of stability, and she shouldn't have to suffer your judgment because she chose to work at a studio that seemed like a good fit in a field she liked. Essentially, your argument becomes "no one should ever do something they care about if they can claim a better position in a less interesting field", and suddenly Marvel Studios is the only production company in business.
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Lopen posted...

The conditions are probably

Lopen posted...

Her job is probably

Lopen posted...

and even low end jobs in that field should

Like look at all these assumptions based on ??? but spoken with the confidence of someone who obviously knows better
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The company finances aren't why she shouldn't settle on the job. She can't know those (though I find in most jobs you should have at least an idea if you're not oblivious). That's only why the firings are warranted.

"Living paycheck to paycheck" while enduring "terrible working conditions" is why she shouldn't settle on the job, if it's true (it's probably not).
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I've endured terrible working conditions because I had a passion for the job and cared about the people it impacted before.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

There was an appearance of stability, and she shouldn't have to suffer your judgment because she chose to work at a studio that seemed like a good fit in a field she liked.

Like seriously, two weeks ago what were the signs that TTG was a sinking ship and people should be preparing for layoffs?
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Lopen posted...

probably

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Imagine unironically engaging Lopen in thoughtful discussion
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Lopen posted...

She can't know those (though I find in most jobs you should have at least an idea if you're not oblivious).

Theyre in the middle of an episodic season of a popular game series

They had two more seasons of content for other series already in production

They had a deal with Netflix for content

They were still hiring on new people

Truly a company in obvious dire straits
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Jakyl25 posted...

Like look at all these assumptions based on ??? but spoken with the confidence of someone who obviously knows better

I'm from the field. I've browsed many many job listings in the field. I have worked many jobs in the field. I'm not talking out of my ass, here, but you can believe these people are working for scraps in salt mines if it makes you feel better, though.
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Lopen posted...

I have worked many jobs in the field

In the video game industry?
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I do agree that you can't blame her for not seeing what is coming or the terrible situation she is in.

I think the thing that irked Lopen (and me to an extent) is that she is acting like it was a job with terrible conditions, which she brought upon herself.

Yes, I'm sure she has passion for the game industry, but so do I but I also have enough self respect to not work in it (I imagine it's different if your in a startup or small company but that poses different kinds of risk). I simply chose good pay and working conditions and she chose bad ones for something she loves. It's not the wrong decision necessarily, but it is one she made so complaining about those conditions is kind of annoying.

(And to people talking about unionizing, this is honestly supply and demand. If there was better conditions, a lot of those people wouldn't have a job in that field because their would be more competition. A lot of people want to be video game devs but realize that they are so enticing they can afford to treat you like shit)
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Colegreen_c12 posted...

(And to people talking about unionizing, this is honestly supply and demand. If there was better conditions, a lot of those people wouldn't have a job in that field because their would be more competition.

Thats better than the current situation.
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Jakyl25 posted...

In the video game industry?

No, video game industry jobs would be only jobs I have applied for/looked into as they have a lot of overlap with my skillset (none of the pay offers in any of those jobs came remotely close to sniffing paycheck to paycheck level pay even considering cost of living) but I never actually worked at one. I have worked as a software engineer in a few places, and as such know pretty well the extent of "poor working conditions" possible in such a job. The extent is you can have stupid long hours, maybe unpaid holidays or holidays you have to come into work for if you're really slumming it and maybe have a jackass pressuring you to get something done. Whatever.

I've also worked in IT and yeah Walmart type stuff, both are way worse for poor working conditions when they want to hit you with the high stress stuff imo. I also know people that work in a variety of other fields and the stories they tell me seem worse than the worst possible things in a programming job.

But yeah I dunno, I'm only probably sure these people are talking out their ass because I am but one man and can only work in so many jobs over the course of my life.
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Lopen posted...

none of the pay offers in any of those jobs came remotely close to sniffing paycheck to paycheck level pay even considering cost of living

Was any of this in San Francisco?

EDIT: With a family?
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Some looking around there, yeah. I have a friend who lives in that area so I looked into a bit.

Mostly Washington with a bit of Florida and New Mexico though.

Keep in mind in heavily urban areas like San Francisco your cost of living can vary wildly depending on how willing to commute you are and what living standards you're willing to tolerate. So one person's "I must live paycheck to paycheck woe is me" could be another person's life of luxury.
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I think the only man who has more knowledge and first hand experience about literally every subject that comes up on this board than Lopen is Ulti

Better step it up
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Lopen posted...

Keep in mind in heavily urban areas like San Francisco your cost of living can vary wildly depending on how willing to commute you are and what living standards you're willing to tolerate. So one person's "I must live paycheck to paycheck woe is me" could be another person's life of luxury.

This is all a fantastic indictment of the system in general, so thank you.

Dont you think YOU deserved better at your jobs?
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Lopen sucks now. Sad to say, but he was better as a mercs admin.
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StealThisSheen posted...

I think the only man who has more knowledge and first hand experience about literally every subject that comes up on this board than Lopen is Ulti

Bit of a sampling bias as I don't tend to enter most of these conversations and lurk a lot when I don't have any experience with the topic matter

And no I don't think the software engineering industry is particularly hard up for needing better working conditions. You work hard sure but most jobs work hard in their own way I think and I'd rather be doing it than other jobs I've worked at (and most of my friend's professions that aren't government office jobs) for sure. I think people will instinctively say their field is the toughest thing ever cause life is hard.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

Also telling someone who has a passion for games and WANTS to be in the industry despite various workplace problems "no shut up just get another job in a different career" is like....just brushing shit under the carpet I feel.

An actual problem solving method would be working towards change and improvements in the industry, and maybe considering unions and stuff.

We as a society feel comfortable doing this every day for all sorts of people in all sorts of situations.

You just kinda sorta care about the people in this one is all.
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Lopen posted...

And really any way you slice it they chose to be in that job for some reason, and when one of the first complaints is "I depend on the health insurance that comes with my job" when a ton of jobs even good ones don't give you that it strains credibility.

What's that mean? Really, everyone should have health care, regardless of their job. It's not entitled to say you need it because the government doesn't provide it for you, even though it should.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

Really, everyone should have health care, regardless of their job

I agree with that

I'm just saying a lot of jobs don't even give you free healthcare to begin with. When you're speaking in those terms as one of your lead ins your tales of your so called miserable job lose a bit of oomph for me.

I just think she's acting like her job is the worst thing in the world, while it's a job she chose to work, realistically speaking from things she herself said had some perks even ignoring the elephant in the room of her assessment of what they're being paid as likely being closer to nonsense to most people than not, and is a job that isn't even profitable to the company (so speaking in realistic terms of the value of your work you were overpaid if anything), so I feel like she comes off as a bit entitled.

I'm not saying she deserved to be fired necessarily (the main blunders are probably with management), but at what point do you take any sort of accountability for choices you've made and stop always being a victim, you know? That's my beef.
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Incidentally, she was talking about people lower down the pole than her when she was talking about the paycheck to paycheck part, if you didn't notice.
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She said she's miserable and still chooses to work there which is the important part of why I think she comes off as entitled. I don't know how all the parts come together there but yeah.

Paycheck to paycheck stuff was more just an aside that I just think is a bald faced lie to make them seem more sympathetic, or an unwitting lie based on perversion of what paycheck to paycheck living actually means. (If you live paycheck to paycheck and have low hanging expenses you can cut but don't, then that's a gamble you choose to make)
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Nanis23 posted...

Well, they are still professionals with years of experience so there must be something we are missing, I can't imagine they did mistakes everyone can realize it's a mistake besides them

No, management does exactly this very often

They also often realize it's a mistake but still do it
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Lopen posted...

I'm just saying there must have been a reason people are choosing to work there instead of Walmart, which puts them in likely a better working condition than Walmart in some ways or another, which is itself better working conditions than probably half of jobs out there.

I just think if you're in that position and whining about your work conditions while at the same time being part of a company that is losing money hand over fist it comes off as a bit entitled to me.

Like it'd be different if they were on the bottom rung of the employment totem pole, or they were working for a company that is bringing in huge profits and shouldn't ever need to fire them, but there are options out there

Colegreen_c12 posted...

I wonder if people realize that most people in the game industry actually have a skillset that works in non-game industry jobs that pay better and treat you better

Or what this guy said

Another world-class dumbass post.

Of course all game developers could just stop making games and do something else. But that doesn't help the game industry at all. They can protect themselves as individuals, but all those solutions destroy the industry that they want to build and be a part of.

Improving the game industry means having game industry jobs that are fair and are managed with economics that make sense. The goal is that we can still make games, but without the insane risks and abuse. Forcing all the talent away from games is the dumbest non-solution ever. If you want to talk about an entitled position, try being a fan of games and asking for more games to be made while also encouraging all game developers to quit making games.
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We have enough games. Every future game proposal should be brought to the general public ballot boxes as a referendum on its right to exist
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure if everybody just left any job that ever made them feel miserable and just "did something else," we'd have pretty much no industry.

Sure, all the steel workers could stop working in steel and go take an easier job at Walmart, but, uh...
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StealThisSheen posted...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if everybody just left any job that ever made them feel miserable and just "did something else," we'd have pretty much no industry.

This is basically the concept of the labor union, you know that right?
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Well, right.

The point is that's why such things exist. Just going "Either suck it up or do something else, it's your fault" is a bit silly.
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Plenty of people in the game industry enjoy their work, though, or at least give the impression that they do.

My point wasn't "Walmart is an easier job" it's "Walmart isn't an easier job" when you consider all factors such as fulfillment, pay, work schedule, etc otherwise more people would go do it.

I mean if it needs a union, sure, whatever, I don't really buy it, but you don't really need to play a martyr while one is being established either. But sure, if you're complaining and actually putting the work in to help unionize to deal with it, I guess that's not entitlement. Wonder if she is active for that cause?
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You can only make the same game with the same choices so many times.
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Good

Riddance
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Wait, they didn't get any severance??

They can go burn in hell
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You can't pay severance if you're insolvent
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ZenOfThunder posted...

wow
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Wonder what happened after New Frontier
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Aecioo posted...

Good

Riddance

how dare you
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Nanis23 posted...

Wonder what happened after New Frontier

Probably not been out long enough to be in a big sale
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Jakyl25 posted...

Nanis23 posted...

Wonder what happened after New Frontier

Probably not been out long enough to be in a big sale

This combined with dying interest.

The earlier games, particularly the first two TWDs and Wolf, were probably on sale like all the time.
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It is interesting to see though that the actual licensed properties apparently meant nothing in terms of sales. It was entirely the TTG brand that sold/didnt sell.
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