Current Events > How do we fix capitalism?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Things have clearly gotten out of control. There's an exodus of jobs into countries with lower wages, automation is taking over many low skill positions, people continue to borrow like crazy despite what happened in 2008, and real wages are stagnant.

This really doesn't seem sustainable, but what can we do?
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Ban guns
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Universal Basic Income.
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Abolish the Federal Reserve.
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Abolish the IRS and return to the gold standard
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Automation is a long way from meaningfully taking away jobs. People borrowing like crazy and living beyond their means has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with how we don't teach basic personal finance to children in school. Wages are "stagnant" because of inflation and also because the labor market is saturated.

Pretty much anyone can have a very comfortable life if they make a median wage in most states, especially if their significant other makes a median wage and they can use both incomes to live off of.

To fix these things you need more education of basic personal finance and personal responsibility. More investment into rebuilding infrastructure (since these jobs tend to pay well). More investment into renewables (since these tend to employ a lot of people). More investment into research. Smarter regulations/tariffs.

Ultimately things are far better than the mainstream media suggests with its virtually non-stop negativity and exaggeration. Unless you royally fucked up by having kids out of wedlock and not graduating high school, pretty much anyone in America can have a comfortable and nice life.
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Well... with more capitalism.
Ban business licenses, as a concept. Gut various regulations that only really serve to drive smaller players out of the market. Stop subsiding monoliths.

MarqueeSeries posted...

Things have clearly gotten out of control. There's an exodus of jobs into countries with lower wages, automation is taking over many low skill positions, people continue to borrow like crazy despite what happened in 2008, and real wages are stagnant.

This really doesn't seem sustainable, but what can we do?

The problems you're describing are literally due to government interference in the marketplace.

As in, literally not capitalism.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Well... with more capitalism.
Ban business licenses, as a concept. Gut various regulations that only really serve to drive smaller players out of the market. Stop subsiding monoliths.

Yeah. An example is...why is it so hard to produce safe insulin alternatives or for new players to sell cheaper insulin? Could it have anything to do with how slow and monolithic the FDA practices are for allowing new generics to market? etc.
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By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.
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And btw the answer is not "we need muh Marxism" just in case anyone is wondering
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Yeah. An example is...why is it so hard to produce safe insulin alternatives or for new players to sell cheaper insulin?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Novolin-ReliOn-Insulin-N/167672445

theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

And how do you propose getting away from it if the entire government is beholden to some giant players who can do whatever they want?
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Questionmarktarius posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Yeah. An example is...why is it so hard to produce safe insulin alternatives or for new players to sell cheaper insulin?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Novolin-ReliOn-Insulin-N/167672445

But I was told that insulin is upwards of $1200 per dose now.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

And btw the answer is not "we need muh Marxism" just in case anyone is wondering

Viva La Revolucion
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theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

"Getting away from capitalism" caused every single problem people have with American crony-capitalism. Going further away isn't going to fix those problems. It hasn't fixed it in Europe or South America or Asia or Canada, so why would it fix it here?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

And how do you propose getting away from it if the entire government is beholden to some giant players who can do whatever they want?

I have no answer. Get rid of gov't and you'll just end up with super predatory corporations eating entire industries alive and environmental destruction. Keeping gov't the way it is and you get the same thing but slower.

Blow the whole thing up. Kill yourself and everyone around you. I don't know.
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End the welfare state, take away welfare from most people except those with real disabilities that prevent them from working, or people who have a medical condition that prevents them from working.

Single moms have to get a legit job, and lazy assholes have to work instead of wasting tax payer money.
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It's not capitalism anymore, it's oligarchy. There is no competition because the vast majority of companies are owned by a few small conglomerates. You want to fix capitalism? Create stronger laws against monopolies and centralized ownership.

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

theAteam posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

And how do you propose getting away from it if the entire government is beholden to some giant players who can do whatever they want?

I have no answer. Get rid of gov't and you'll just end up with super predatory corporations eating entire industries alive and environmental destruction. Keeping gov't the way it is and you get the same thing but slower.

Blow the whole thing up. Kill yourself and everyone around you. I don't know.

Dude what the fuck you're like two steps away from being a goddam terrorist. <_< The solution is to leverage antitrust laws so that we can break up monopolies, like we've done in the past, and to prioritize information, education, and individual rights. Because that way everything in society improves.

There's a reason why we've progressed this far as a species. It wasn't because of terrorism or blowing shit up or moving away from capitalism. It was because of accepting and defending the values from the Enlightenment and the Renaissance and etc. Individuality, liberty, science, reason, free trade, markets, etc.
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theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

Basically this. Only real hope is a revolution. Luckily there's a YouTube song we all know and love in my playlist for that inevitable revolution.
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Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.
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UBI.
Regulation.
More tax brackets.
Break up anything "too big to fail"
and stop allowing monopolies, mergers, the gobbling up for IP, etc etc etc.
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Less government.
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gunplagirl posted...

theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

Basically this. Only real hope is a revolution. Luckily there's a YouTube song we all know and love in my playlist for that inevitable revolution.

@andel
@Rimmer_Dall
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

theAteam posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

And how do you propose getting away from it if the entire government is beholden to some giant players who can do whatever they want?

I have no answer. Get rid of gov't and you'll just end up with super predatory corporations eating entire industries alive and environmental destruction. Keeping gov't the way it is and you get the same thing but slower.

Blow the whole thing up. Kill yourself and everyone around you. I don't know.

Dude what the fuck you're like two steps away from being a goddam terrorist. <_< The solution is to leverage antitrust laws so that we can break up monopolies, like we've done in the past, and to prioritize information, education, and individual rights. Because that way everything in society improves.

There's a reason why we've progressed this far as a species. It wasn't because of terrorism or blowing shit up or moving away from capitalism. It was because of accepting and defending the values from the Enlightenment and the Renaissance and etc. Individuality, liberty, science, reason, free trade, markets, etc.

I agree with all those things but how are you going to wrestle control out of the hands of those that are currently in power and stifling all of those values?

Also the kill yourself thing was me repeating something from a podcast it wasn't meant to be literal.
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theAteam posted...

but how are you going to wrestle control out of the hands of those that are currently in power

Voting.
Running for election yourself.
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theAteam posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

theAteam posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

theAteam posted...

By getting away from capitalism.

All the shit you've seen over the last 30-40 years is inherent in the system. Capitalism rewards the most efficient economic actions, regardless to societal effect. The only way away from that is to incentivize more socially beneficial outcomes through legislation. The problem with that is private industry owns the government so all the legislation benefits whoever has the most money, i.e. those that can most efficiently exploit the developing world.

And how do you propose getting away from it if the entire government is beholden to some giant players who can do whatever they want?

I have no answer. Get rid of gov't and you'll just end up with super predatory corporations eating entire industries alive and environmental destruction. Keeping gov't the way it is and you get the same thing but slower.

Blow the whole thing up. Kill yourself and everyone around you. I don't know.

Dude what the fuck you're like two steps away from being a goddam terrorist. <_< The solution is to leverage antitrust laws so that we can break up monopolies, like we've done in the past, and to prioritize information, education, and individual rights. Because that way everything in society improves.

There's a reason why we've progressed this far as a species. It wasn't because of terrorism or blowing shit up or moving away from capitalism. It was because of accepting and defending the values from the Enlightenment and the Renaissance and etc. Individuality, liberty, science, reason, free trade, markets, etc.

I agree with all those things but how are you going to wrestle control out of the hands of those that are currently in power and stifling all of those values?

Also the kill yourself thing was me repeating something from a podcast it wasn't meant to be literal.

Uh you realize this problem used to be way worse, right? Back when American steel was big. Or when there was just one or two giant telecom companies. You know, back when these huge monolithic entities were broken up via antitrust laws? We've done it before and emerged for the better afterwards, and can do it again when Google, Amazon, etc, become too big for their britches.

And we have the fucking internet and are communicating with each other across thousands of miles. Education and reasonable discussion can be had 24/7. We just need the will to preserve individual rights over collective rights and we'll be okay.
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darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Those people are either delusional or naive, to be honest.
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darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Defend companies like Tesla that do most of their work in the states, then. Rather than paint a target on their back whenever there are accidents or they aren't perfect.

And make it more competitive for American companies to produce in America. Don't shaft them with massive corporate taxes that are designed to fuel a welfare state.
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CloneTheHero posted...

oxymoron?

theres nothing to fix lmao. we live in the most peaceful thriving society the earth has ever seen.

True, but unfortunately not everyone has read The Better Angels of Our Nature or Enlightenment Now. Hence why they frame it as "fix" instead of "improve upon" or w/e.
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anyone who says Universal Basic Income will solve the problems with society should read this

https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/universal-basic-income-is-a-neoliberal-plot-to-make-you-poorer/
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CloneTheHero posted...

theres nothing to fix lmao. we live in the most peaceful thriving society the earth has ever seen.

Meanwhile
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/07/world/climate-change-new-ipcc-report-wxc/index.html

Big failing of this topic that the climate has yet to be mentioned.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Defend companies like Tesla that do most of their work in the states, then. Rather than paint a target on their back whenever there are accidents or they aren't perfect.

And make it more competitive for American companies to produce in America. Don't shaft them with massive corporate taxes that are designed to fuel a welfare state.

Tesla is the perfect example of non-capitalism. Had they been supported by capitalism, they'd have failed years ago.

They literally only exist due to President Obama gifting them billions of dollars.
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Antifar posted...

CloneTheHero posted...

theres nothing to fix lmao. we live in the most peaceful thriving society the earth has ever seen.

Meanwhile
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/07/world/climate-change-new-ipcc-report-wxc/index.html

Big failing of this topic that the climate has yet to be mentioned.

And that is not capitalism's fault, considering how various Marxist experiments in the Soviet Union, China, Venezuela, the eastern bloc of Europe, Iran, etc, all were using fossil fuels all the same. It's an accident of history that humans stumbled upon fossil fuels as a cheap reliable fuel source. It's not any economic model's fault for that.

(Spoiler alert: We'll actually fix climate change within the next 15 years and then you'll have to find a different way to peddle your desire for humanity to deindustrialize and go back to an agricultural way of life.)
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Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Because those are Communist and Socialist nations, and there is no way to pay them.

Like, those nations are what the people who want to "fix" capitalism will turn us into.
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darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Defend companies like Tesla that do most of their work in the states, then. Rather than paint a target on their back whenever there are accidents or they aren't perfect.

And make it more competitive for American companies to produce in America. Don't shaft them with massive corporate taxes that are designed to fuel a welfare state.

Tesla is the perfect example of non-capitalism. Had they been supported by capitalism, they'd have failed years ago.

They literally only exist due to President Obama gifting them billions of dollars.

I'm not even sure what he is asking anymore. I never said all companies are evil, nor that all companies do it. I simply pointed out that the majority of major corporations rely on importing their goods and services from places with no worker's rights. But I guess Proudclad gonna proudclad.

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Defend companies like Tesla that do most of their work in the states, then. Rather than paint a target on their back whenever there are accidents or they aren't perfect.

And make it more competitive for American companies to produce in America. Don't shaft them with massive corporate taxes that are designed to fuel a welfare state.

Tesla is the perfect example of non-capitalism. Had they been supported by capitalism, they'd have failed years ago.

They literally only exist due to President Obama gifting them billions of dollars.

It's new technology that is far superior to gas-powered cars but required bootstrapping of funds in order to become tenable. It's perfectly fine for a government to invest in loaning money or granting money for laudable research initiatives.

Tesla paid their loan back with interest and extra on top to be nice, and their cars are in really high demand. So clearly consumers want what they're producing, and we're all better for it as a result.

That is why every other car manufacturer has committed to producing electric vehicles (some major ones even saying they will produce just electric vehicles within the next few years).
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darkjedilink posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Because those are Communist and Socialist nations, and there is no way to pay them.

Like, those nations are what the people who want to "fix" capitalism will turn us into.

South Korea is a communist nation? Well, thanks for clearing that up. I now know you are just trolling.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Defend companies like Tesla that do most of their work in the states, then. Rather than paint a target on their back whenever there are accidents or they aren't perfect.

And make it more competitive for American companies to produce in America. Don't shaft them with massive corporate taxes that are designed to fuel a welfare state.

Tesla is the perfect example of non-capitalism. Had they been supported by capitalism, they'd have failed years ago.

They literally only exist due to President Obama gifting them billions of dollars.

It's new technology that is far superior to gas-powered cars but required bootstrapping of funds in order to become tenable. It's perfectly fine for a government to invest in loaning money or granting money for laudable research initiatives.

Tesla paid their loan back with interest and extra on top to be nice, and their cars are in really high demand. So clearly consumers want what they're producing, and we're all better for it as a result.

That is why every other car manufacturer has committed to producing electric vehicles (some major ones even saying they will produce just electric vehicles within the next few years).

Sounds like you want Socialism or Communism.
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Dash_Harber posted...

I simply pointed out that the majority of major corporations rely on importing their goods and services from places with no worker's rights.

It is not the case that the majority of major corporations rely on importing goods/services from places with "no worker's rights"
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

stuff

Uh you realize this problem used to be way worse, right? Back when American steel was big. Or when there was just one or two giant telecom companies. You know, back when these huge monolithic entities were broken up via antitrust laws? We've done it before and emerged for the better afterwards, and can do it again when Google, Amazon, etc, become too big for their britches.

I think we're a lot worse than we were back in the early 19th century. There were monopolies but we didn't have global economy back then like we do now. The effects of breaking up Amazon would be so widespread that many would be opposed to doing it.

And also the gov't wasn't so beholden to them back then. The one thing I actually support Trump on is when he talks about going after Amazon but he never actually does anything, it's all talk. These companies now own the government. They wipe their asses with antitrust laws. We need another TR.

And we have the fucking internet and are communicating with each other across thousands of miles. Education and reasonable discussion can be had 24/7. We just need the will to preserve individual rights over collective rights and we'll be okay.

They're trying their damnest to get rid of the free Internet, which they also own.
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Essentially, smart implementation of humanitarian policies to curb the fact that capitalism is, at its core, an amoral system where whoever are capable are given the chance to profit.

But, of course, the key word is "smart." There's a difficult balance to maintain between adding supplementary morals to an amoral system without undermining the benefits gained from said system in the first place. Of course, there will always be some sacrifice to capitalism's efficiency as a result, but I think our biggest problem is the policies are either wrong or incomplete: Policies meant to deal with humanitarian needs, but instead don't meet those needs yet still add inefficiency to the system.

If we stopped focusing on the quite frankly bizarre capitalism vs communism debate and focused more on what humanitarian policies might best compliment a capitalist system, all parties involved would be able to reap the benefits.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

darkjedilink posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

That also doesn't change the problem that someone in the world has to be exploited in our modern world for it to function, though.

People don't need to be exploited for the modern world to function. That's a really reductive and dishonest take on how the world works. Some mineral suppliers abusing children via child labor so they can sell those minerals to some smartphone companies doesn't mean that's the only way smartphones are built or can be built, for example.

The people who think that literally think a rich person who owns a company and pays his employees well and treats them fairly is "exploiting" his workers because they don't own the company.

Actually, I didn't say the modern world can't exist, I said our current system relies on it. I also wasn't talking about people working for a company, I was talking about how many companies import materials and services from sweat shops from places like Korea and China where people work like 18 hour days in what is basically slave labor.

Defend companies like Tesla that do most of their work in the states, then. Rather than paint a target on their back whenever there are accidents or they aren't perfect.

And make it more competitive for American companies to produce in America. Don't shaft them with massive corporate taxes that are designed to fuel a welfare state.

Tesla is the perfect example of non-capitalism. Had they been supported by capitalism, they'd have failed years ago.

They literally only exist due to President Obama gifting them billions of dollars.

It's new technology that is far superior to gas-powered cars but required bootstrapping of funds in order to become tenable. It's perfectly fine for a government to invest in loaning money or granting money for laudable research initiatives.

Tesla paid their loan back with interest and extra on top to be nice, and their cars are in really high demand. So clearly consumers want what they're producing, and we're all better for it as a result.

That is why every other car manufacturer has committed to producing electric vehicles (some major ones even saying they will produce just electric vehicles within the next few years).

Subsidies aren't loans, and if their cars are in such high demand, why does Tesla have so many warehouses full of completed cars, sitting for months?

Your love affair with Tesla is proof positive that we don't live in a capitalist society - government intrusion is literally the only reason they exist.
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theAteam posted...

The effects of breaking up Amazon would be so widespread that many would be opposed to doing it.

Nah. Break up their web services department and their online store department. The store can be a customer of the web services department but not part of the same company. That in itself would be huge. Amazon being split into a cloud services provider and an online retail platform makes sense and those are distinct enough concepts that it wouldn't rattle too much of the economy.

theAteam posted...

And also the gov't wasn't so beholden to them back then. The one thing I actually support Trump on is when he talks about going after Amazon but he never actually does anything, it's all talk. These companies now own the government. They wipe their asses with antitrust laws. We need another TR.

I think the government was probably more beholden to them back then because information traveled much more slowly than it does now and people didn't have access to as much news. Not to mention that there was less competition.

Even if Amazon and Google don't get broken up, I'd be surprised if they're still around and as powerful as they are now in 30 years. Facebook's already begun going down the drain.

theAteam posted...

They're trying their damnest to get rid of the free Internet, which they also own.

Spoiler alert - it's actually governments that are the big threat to the internet, because governments are the only ones who can institute complete censorship.
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darkjedilink posted...

Subsidies aren't loans, and if their cars are in such high demand, why does Tesla have so many warehouses full of completed cars, sitting for months?

Your love affair with Tesla is proof positive that we don't live in a capitalist society - government intrusion is literally the only reason they exist.

Tesla benefited from a loan that they paid back with interest and extra. Subsidies to make the new technology more affordable is fair, because bootstrapping funds are fair when they're used intelligently.

If no one wanted Tesla's cars, they wouldn't exist regardless of the subsidies.
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