Current Events > being on the left is hard

(+) Yeah! (+)

Doing good is never easy.
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averagejoel posted...

yeah I have sonicfan on ignore

ah I gotcha
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Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

TC got a degree in jazz trumpet. He probably shouldn't be lecturing people on good decisions.

nothin' wrong with that if it worked out for him, the idea that people on the left actually do research is sort of silly though, seems pretty clear to me that 'both sides' get by with a lot of just-so reasoning and a generous helping of moralizing as a substitute for reason and research but that's jmo

Uh huh. It should be stated that radicals seem most susceptible to act on identity politics and feels. Social democrats are reasonable. Communists are LOL.
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Balrog0 posted...

50Blessings posted...

Orange Man Bad tho

this doesn't seem to be a feeling held by the truly far left, well I mean, not to any special degree

I mean, he is bad. I don't think he's much worse, if at all worse, than say... the rest of the US' presidents in the past 50 years
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yeah thats what I mean
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HydraSlayer82 posted...

Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

TC got a degree in jazz trumpet. He probably shouldn't be lecturing people on good decisions.

nothin' wrong with that if it worked out for him, the idea that people on the left actually do research is sort of silly though, seems pretty clear to me that 'both sides' get by with a lot of just-so reasoning and a generous helping of moralizing as a substitute for reason and research but that's jmo

Uh huh. It should be stated that radicals act on identity politics and feels. Social democrats are reasonable. Communists are LOL.

social democracy is unsustainable, and it's only worked out for sweden et. al. because they were already wealthy. their social programs are slowly crumbling too

also a significant portion (maybe the majority) of the left hates identity politics
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averagejoel posted...

HydraSlayer82 posted...

Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

TC got a degree in jazz trumpet. He probably shouldn't be lecturing people on good decisions.

nothin' wrong with that if it worked out for him, the idea that people on the left actually do research is sort of silly though, seems pretty clear to me that 'both sides' get by with a lot of just-so reasoning and a generous helping of moralizing as a substitute for reason and research but that's jmo

Uh huh. It should be stated that radicals act on identity politics and feels. Social democrats are reasonable. Communists are LOL.

social democracy is unsustainable, and it's only worked out for sweden et. al. because they were already wealthy. their social programs are slowly crumbling too

also a significant portion (maybe the majority) of the left hates identity politics

I hope so. IMO the only identity politics worth a shit are common humanity identity politics. Everything else serves to divide.
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averagejoel posted...

Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

TC got a degree in jazz trumpet. He probably shouldn't be lecturing people on good decisions.

nothin' wrong with that if it worked out for him, the idea that people on the left actually do research is sort of silly though, seems pretty clear to me that 'both sides' get by with a lot of just-so reasoning and a generous helping of moralizing as a substitute for reason and research but that's jmo

I'm not sure where I lectured anyone on good decisions. feel free to enlighten me though

Not that he can see it, but TC's entire "literal communism" gimmick is based on the presumption that doing so is good for everyone, thus "good decisions." I wasn't implying he was advocating for personal decisions, although if I'm being blunt, I'm not shocked that someone who actively chose to pursue one of the least economically viable degrees in existence would turn around and then argue that we need to live in a society where everyone else pays for his lifestyle, as if he wouldn't be plowing fields but instead given a healthy stipend to play jazz trumpet for society.
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averagejoel posted...

you have to like, actually research stuff

right wingers can just say shit

Aren't you the guy who advocates child murder for Communism?
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s0nicfan posted...

averagejoel posted...

Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

TC got a degree in jazz trumpet. He probably shouldn't be lecturing people on good decisions.

nothin' wrong with that if it worked out for him, the idea that people on the left actually do research is sort of silly though, seems pretty clear to me that 'both sides' get by with a lot of just-so reasoning and a generous helping of moralizing as a substitute for reason and research but that's jmo

I'm not sure where I lectured anyone on good decisions. feel free to enlighten me though

Not that he can see it, but TC's entire "literal communism" gimmick is based on the presumption that doing so is good for everyone, thus "good decisions." I wasn't implying he was advocating for personal decisions, although if I'm being blunt, I'm not shocked that someone who actively chose to pursue one of the least economically viable degrees in existence would turn around and then argue that we need to live in a society where everyone else pays for his lifestyle, as if he wouldn't be plowing fields but instead given a healthy stipend to play jazz trumpet for society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrxkiZbXS9Q" data-time="
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wow sonicfan really thinks he has a good grasp of my politics doesn't he
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averagejoel posted...

wow sonicfan really thinks he has a good grasp of my politics doesn't he

Let's say tomorrow society turned into exactly what you envision. What do you spend the rest of your life doing in it? What's your career?
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In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.
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averagejoel posted...

Zerocide posted...

averagejoel posted...

Zerocide posted...

What if you're a no-winger?

then you're on the right

That's weird, I get told I'm a left winger when I ask the same thing to the right.

centrists are just spineless conservatives

Lol no theyre not
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The left does research? Are you pulling our legs?
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sonicfan has it occurred to you that there might be a purpose to higher education aside from making a lot of money
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Godnorgosh posted...

Also, there would be less work to do and less time spent at work overall, for two major reasons. First, because jobs that don't contribute anything of use to society except assist in the accumulation of capital wouldn't exist. Second, because when there's no work to do, you can go home instead of sitting in an office for a specified amount of time (because you're contributing to production, not selling your time).

using whatever kind of likert-style scale you like, how much of this perspective is based on evidence and research and how much of it is based on what sounds about right based on your ideological preferences?
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averagejoel posted...

sonicfan has it occurred to you that there might be a purpose to higher education aside from making a lot of money

You're advocating for an inherently selfless society for selfish reasons. When given the opportunity to learn something that could directly benefit your community in tangible ways, you intentionally (or otherwise) chose something you personally wanted to do instead. It's not about taking a degree that makes the most money. It's about being the change you want in others, or in your case being selfish and then trying to convince others to sacrifice when you didn't.
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At this point, centrism is like atheism. It's used by people who don't know what it means more often than by people who do.

s0nicfan posted...

You're advocating for an inherently selfless society for selfish reasons. When given the opportunity to learn something that could directly benefit your community in tangible ways, you intentionally (or otherwise) chose something you personally wanted to do instead. It's not about taking a degree that makes the most money. It's about being the change you want in others, or in your case being selfish and then trying to convince others to sacrifice when you didn't.

just because you personally do not enjoy jazz does not mean it doesnt have cultural value

i think its funny that u talk about directly benefiting the community, as if someone getting a finance degree and working at a hedge fund or w/e is somehow providing value to people outside of the industry
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Romulox28 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

You're advocating for an inherently selfless society for selfish reasons. When given the opportunity to learn something that could directly benefit your community in tangible ways, you intentionally (or otherwise) chose something you personally wanted to do instead. It's not about taking a degree that makes the most money. It's about being the change you want in others, or in your case being selfish and then trying to convince others to sacrifice when you didn't.

just because you personally do not enjoy jazz does not mean it doesnt have cultural value

i think its funny that u talk about directly benefiting the community, as if someone getting a finance degree and working at a hedge fund or w/e is somehow providing value to people outside of the industry

he's also just making stuff up about my politics
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averagejoel posted...

Romulox28 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

You're advocating for an inherently selfless society for selfish reasons. When given the opportunity to learn something that could directly benefit your community in tangible ways, you intentionally (or otherwise) chose something you personally wanted to do instead. It's not about taking a degree that makes the most money. It's about being the change you want in others, or in your case being selfish and then trying to convince others to sacrifice when you didn't.

just because you personally do not enjoy jazz does not mean it doesnt have cultural value

i think its funny that u talk about directly benefiting the community, as if someone getting a finance degree and working at a hedge fund or w/e is somehow providing value to people outside of the industry

he's also just making stuff up about my politics

Then stop dodging my questions. I'll ask again:
s0nicfan posted...

Let's say tomorrow society turned into exactly what you envision. What do you spend the rest of your life doing in it? What's your career?

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also, while I do make some money from playing and writing music, my main source of incosme is teaching. so unless you want to argue that teachers don't benefit the community you're being inconsistent
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I mean I think it is a fair, though open-ended, question how exactly music fits into production, seems more like a leisure activity than a productive one to me but then anything someone consumes is arguably worth producing but of course that is a very circular stance because it would justify the current consumerist culture we have as easily as it could justify music-making as a productive social function under communism or w/e
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averagejoel posted...

also, while I do make some money from playing and writing music, my main source of incosme is teaching. so unless you want to argue that teachers don't benefit the community you're being inconsistent

well I mean it is the same question of what counts as a productive function*, idk lots of teachers probably are pointless and unuseful in our current system but then plenty of other jobs are too
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Balrog0 posted...

averagejoel posted...

also, while I do make some money from playing and writing music, my main source of incosme is teaching. so unless you want to argue that teachers don't benefit the community you're being inconsistent

well I mean it is the same question of what counts as a productive product, idk lots of teachers probably are pointless and unuseful in our current system but then plenty of other jobs are too

I think teaching is one profession that is inherently useful regardless of the system
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This topic title is such a bad take.

The Left: "We are on the right side of history! We are compassionate! We love everyone. We tolerate everyone's lifestyle choices! We have love in our hearts!"

Also the left: "It's hard being a lefty"

Huh?
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averagejoel posted...

I think teaching is one profession that is inherently useful regardless of the system

I agree with joel to a point. It depends on the subject. Basic education has been critical to the growth of societies, but if he's teaching something like "the history of greek fashion" or something it's questionable to what degree the output is worth the cost.

And good for you on teaching. I'll rescind what I said about not contributing to your community. I'd still like to hear whether the society you envision is one that just happens to let you pursue your hobby as a career that also covers all your expenses, or whether you think you'd have to perform other production-related tasks alongside music, but that's for you to decide if you want to answer.
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Caution999 posted...

This topic title is such a bad take.

The Left: "We are on the right side of history! We are compassionate! We love everyone. We tolerate everyone's lifestyle choices! We have love in our hearts!"

Also the left: "It's hard being a lefty"

Huh?

Yes, I had an edgy opinion before the facts came out.

Congrats, me, I'm like 95% of the userbase here.
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well I meant more like there's a lot of capacity wasted on unproductive teaching but Im not sure what productive teaching looks like or how we would measure it and that sort of thing since the targeted consumers really aren't the ones choosing it. my assumption is that children would have a lot more personal freedoms in a communist utopia than they currently have so it would be an interesting thing to plan
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

Caution999 posted...

This topic title is such a bad take.

The Left: "We are on the right side of history! We are compassionate! We love everyone. We tolerate everyone's lifestyle choices! We have love in our hearts!"

Also the left: "It's hard being a lefty"

Huh?

I snorted
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Ya the centrists and sjws just let the right walk all over you and the Democrat party considers actual leftist policies as far left.
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Balrog0 posted...

well I meant more like there's a lot of capacity wasted on unproductive teaching but Im not sure what productive teaching looks like or how we would measure it and that sort of thing since the targeted consumers really aren't the ones choosing it. my assumption is that children would have a lot more personal freedoms in a communist utopia than they currently have so it would be an interesting thing to plan

Joel has also repeatedly asserted that my presumption that he supports communism is "making stuff up about his politics" so I guess it also depends on what his politics are.

But yea, productivity is a factor of need I'd say. Teaching is productive unless there's a massive food shortage and society desperately needs more farmers, at which point the definition of productive changes drastically. The issue is that historically these societies have become so fundamentally destitute that anything other than producing food is basically a path towards mass starvation, which IIRC Joel would blame on capitalist intervention because said societies are completely non self-sustaining and so when other nations back out of trade they collapse under, ironically, their own inability to produce.
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Balrog0 posted...

well I meant more like there's a lot of capacity wasted on unproductive teaching but Im not sure what productive teaching looks like or how we would measure it and that sort of thing since the targeted consumers really aren't the ones choosing it. my assumption is that children would have a lot more personal freedoms in a communist utopia than they currently have so it would be an interesting thing to plan

You mean, the children that lived?
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darkjedilink posted...

Balrog0 posted...

well I meant more like there's a lot of capacity wasted on unproductive teaching but Im not sure what productive teaching looks like or how we would measure it and that sort of thing since the targeted consumers really aren't the ones choosing it. my assumption is that children would have a lot more personal freedoms in a communist utopia than they currently have so it would be an interesting thing to plan

You mean, the children that lived?

wasn't infant and maternal health one of the things cuba improved on better than we did?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2630353/
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Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Balrog0 posted...

well I meant more like there's a lot of capacity wasted on unproductive teaching but Im not sure what productive teaching looks like or how we would measure it and that sort of thing since the targeted consumers really aren't the ones choosing it. my assumption is that children would have a lot more personal freedoms in a communist utopia than they currently have so it would be an interesting thing to plan

You mean, the children that lived?

wasn't infant and maternal health one of the things cuba improved on better than we did?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2630353/

Well, sure - if you ignore the children Che Guevara murdered.

Which was the point I was making.
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averagejoel posted...

Zerocide posted...

averagejoel posted...

Zerocide posted...

What if you're a no-winger?

then you're on the right

That's weird, I get told I'm a left winger when I ask the same thing to the right.

centrists are just spineless conservatives

Tc claims he can't just make shit up

Then he proceeds to make shit up proving it is easy being lib
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darkjedilink posted...

Well, sure - if you ignore the children Che Guevara murdered.

Which was the point I was making.

oh I dunno that the USA wants to get in a fight over whose murdered fewer babies
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I really love the idea of sonicfan thinking he's making some brilliant argument in here. has he posted again?
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Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Well, sure - if you ignore the children Che Guevara murdered.

Which was the point I was making.

oh I dunno that the USA wants to get in a fight over whose murdered fewer babies

There's literally no way to argue that Communism hasn't killed more.
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averagejoel posted...

I really love the idea of sonicfan thinking he's making some brilliant argument in here. has he posted again?

i think he is trying to argue now that in a communist utopia you would be forced to give up teaching and become a farmer lol
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darkjedilink posted...

Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Well, sure - if you ignore the children Che Guevara murdered.

Which was the point I was making.

oh I dunno that the USA wants to get in a fight over whose murdered fewer babies

There's literally no way to argue that Communism hasn't killed more.

I'm sure you think that's true
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Romulox28 posted...

averagejoel posted...

I really love the idea of sonicfan thinking he's making some brilliant argument in here. has he posted again?

i think he is trying to argue now that in a communist utopia you would be forced to give up teaching and become a farmer lol

I mean, if there was a major food shortage that required people to do that, yeah that's probably what would happen - not from coercion, mind you, but from necessity. but if that were the case we'd have bigger things to worry about anyway
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Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Well, sure - if you ignore the children Che Guevara murdered.

Which was the point I was making.

oh I dunno that the USA wants to get in a fight over whose murdered fewer babies

There's literally no way to argue that Communism hasn't killed more.

I'm sure you think that's true

Because it is.
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youre a teacher? how is that? Was thinking of going into teaching
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whats the total count for both? what are you counting as deaths by communism vs deaths by the USA?

the highs I've seem from communist mass killings are in the range of 100 million, not just kids but everyone you can attribute to communism in the 20th century

I'm sure you could easily tabulate a similar level of deaths attributable to the united states

of course this is all based on you moving the goal posts from 'cuba' to 'all communist regimes ever' for reasons of making your argument seem more plausible and stronger than it actually is
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