Current Events > Hardcore FE players that hate on Casual Mode are the worst.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Vodkarade posted...

You know, strategy, in a SRPG

So, again, what's the point if now we're saying you guys aren't good enough to strategize on the fly? Something that truly involves strategy.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Not my fault you haven't been able to grasp the things said to you in this topic.

Not my fault you don't understand what permadeath is.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Not my fault you haven't been able to grasp the things said to you in this topic.

Not my fault you don't understand what permadeath is.

You fail to understand what save files are.
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Tmaster148 posted...

All resetting is, is loading an earlier save. If you have a problem with people with resetting in a FE game it must also mean that you have a problem with people loading earlier saves in games.

Reloading and resetting are not the same thing no matter how much you may want them to be.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Reloading and resetting are not the same thing no matter how much you may want them to be.

It is and here's why.

When you reset a fire emblem game, it brings you back to the start menu where you then can pick the save file you want to load.
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Tmaster148 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Reloading and resetting are not the same thing no matter how much you may want them to be.

It is and here's why.

When you reset a fire emblem game, it brings you back to the start menu where you then can pick the save file you want to load.

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/96506/what-does-it-mean-to-savescum
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Distant_Rainbow posted...

It's a bad way to design a game. It's like, if in a Mario game, you get to unlock a secret level if you empty your inventory field and then jump into a pit on purpose to Game Over five times, repeat once per each world for one level each. What kind of drugs were they on when they thought of that, seriously

Because you're fucking supposed to win, not die. If you do die, however, it changes how you have to play the rest of the game. In Mario 3D land and world of you keep jumping off the edge, you get a permanent invincibility item. That's not because they WANT you to repeatedly suicide, but if you die a lot they give you a little extra to help you through it.

Fire Emblem penalizes you further instead of rewarding you, making the rest of the game harder.

By resetting every time a unit dies you're not playing a game fundamentally different from casual. It's just casual again + extra time wasted on resets.

Permanent invincibility items =/= Extra levels. I have nothing against Super Guides in NSMB games or Super Mario Galaxy 2 or whatnot, or Super Kong Mode in DKR, etc. You need help, sure, maybe the game should give you that help then. Better accessibility by easing beginners into the gameplay's great. Just don't leave features that stay permanently unlocked once they appear, let the player be able to still unlock them as long as they don't take said permanent invincibility items. Give the player the choice. Choices are fun.

The problem is when the game demands you to throw all your items and Game Over five times specifically on one specific level before you beat it for the very first time in that file, otherwise you miss out on irreplaceable bonus levels or other such unique content that can't be accessed otherwise. You're supposed to win in the game, like you say. Here, the game's telling you to lose, and not even directly, either. Counterintuitive as shit. Not cool, game. Not cool.

By the way, why are you spouting your 'casual' stuff to me? I don't give a damn about Classic vs. Casual in Fire Emblem, you go play whatever floats your boat. I'm just bashing Shadow Dragon 'cause it deserves that.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Reloading and resetting are not the same thing no matter how much you may want them to be.

It is and here's why.

When you reset a fire emblem game, it brings you back to the start menu where you then can pick the save file you want to load.

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/96506/what-does-it-mean-to-savescum

Which is a pretty valid way to play. For a casual player you sure act like some elitist.
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Tmaster148 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Reloading and resetting are not the same thing no matter how much you may want them to be.

It is and here's why.

When you reset a fire emblem game, it brings you back to the start menu where you then can pick the save file you want to load.

Therefore bypassing what the mode is trying to do so for the fourth time what's the point.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Reloading and resetting are not the same thing no matter how much you may want them to be.

It is and here's why.

When you reset a fire emblem game, it brings you back to the start menu where you then can pick the save file you want to load.

Therefore bypassing what the mode is trying to do so for the fourth time what's the point.

Not at all. Just because players choose to reload their save when a character dies does not change the fact permadeath exists. Many players do play ironman runs where they don't reload their saves when characters die.

Just because you can't understand the concept that the player can decide on their own free will to reload a save when an unfavorable event occurs is no one's problem but your own.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Which is a pretty valid way to play.

It's cheating

Tmaster148 posted...

For a casual player you sure act like some elitist.

I don't play casual. I just am not a wuss and if a party member dies I live with it.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Which is a pretty valid way to play.

For cowards yeah.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Which is a pretty valid way to play.

It's cheating

Tmaster148 posted...

For a casual player you sure act like some elitist.

I don't play casual. I just am not a wuss and if a party member dies I live with it.

I guess if you lost power while playing a game, you would be cheating to reload the game at the last save point. Since you think loading up a save is cheating.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Just because players choose to reload their save when a character dies does not change the fact permadeath exists.

dave_is_slick posted...

Therefore bypassing what the mode is trying to do

Just accept that you cheat.
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It's cute you guys think loading up a save file is cheating.
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Tmaster148 posted...

I guess if you lost power while playing a game, you would be cheating to reload the game at the last save point. Since you think loading up a save is cheating.

Now you're getting desperate.
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You can savescum in Casual mode by simply reloading your save after any turn during battle. So if you have a bad turn you can try again and again until it works out.

You can't do this in Classic because your save gets deleted once it's loaded. If you want to try again you're likely going to have to do the entire level again which is a significantly bigger commitment.

The design of the saves is on purpose. Having to go through an entire level in one run is a challenge in itself. You can't retry a turn on the fly if you find out the hard way it doesn't work.
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Darmik posted...

You can't do this in Classic because your save gets deleted once it's loaded. If you want to try again you're likely going to have to do the entire level again which is a significantly bigger commitment.

You forgot an important part about Classic's mode bookmarks. Once you save a bookmark it brings you to the main menu. So you can't just save in the middle of battle in Classic mode, do an action, reload on failure like you can do in Casual.
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Distant_Rainbow posted...

By the way, why are you spouting your 'casual' stuff to me? I don't give a damn about Classic vs. Casual in Fire Emblem, you go play whatever floats your boat. I'm just bashing Shadow Dragon 'cause it deserves that.

I'm countering your suggestion that is bad design. Good design is something that causes you to make real choices. Shadow Dragon does it well. Once it's removed, then letting people die is nothing more than a failure state.

You should look at Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together for similar situations. Your characters can die permanently but you also have to use them to unlock other characters and there's a reputation / charisma system to consider as well that causes bad things if you repeatedly use the same characters.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Darmik posted...

You can't do this in Classic because your save gets deleted once it's loaded. If you want to try again you're likely going to have to do the entire level again which is a significantly bigger commitment.

You forgot an important part about Classic's mode bookmarks. Once you save a bookmark it brings you to the main menu. So you can't just save in the middle of battle in Classic mode, do an action, reload on failure like you can do in Casual.

Oh yeah exactly. Which goes to show that the way the game handles saves and reloads is part of the design.

The game forces you to start the level again if a story character dies. It's up to you if you want to start again if a side character dies. I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that Fire Emblem is a game where you're supposed to continue forward regardless of what happens.
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Tmaster148 posted...

loading up a save is cheating.

Savescumming is cheating, not any loading imaginable.
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Darmik posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Darmik posted...

You can't do this in Classic because your save gets deleted once it's loaded. If you want to try again you're likely going to have to do the entire level again which is a significantly bigger commitment.

You forgot an important part about Classic's mode bookmarks. Once you save a bookmark it brings you to the main menu. So you can't just save in the middle of battle in Classic mode, do an action, reload on failure like you can do in Casual.

Oh yeah exactly. Which goes to show that the way the game handles saves and reloads is part of the design.

The game forces you to start the level again if a story character dies. It's up to you if you want to start again if a side character dies. I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that Fire Emblem is a game where you're supposed to continue forward regardless of what happens.

It's because the people arguing this are just casual scrubs who want to feel better about their decision to play casual mode.

Either that or they clearly don't understand the basics of how save files work.
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Both Classic and Casual modes are dumb

Just bringing back a limited use revive item and Classic would be fine, and deaths in Casual need at least some penalty beyond missing out on potential EXP gains for the rest of the chapter

Kuudere_Loli posted...

Just bringing back a limited use revive item and Classic would be fine, and deaths in Casual need at least some penalty beyond missing out on potential EXP gains for the rest of the chapter

There's an S rank staff with 1 use that let's you revive the last unit who died on the map. In Fates at least, which only the Maid/Butler class can use. Exists only in CQ or Rev routes.

It's a super late game staff largely meant to exist incase you fuck up on the later levels where losing an invested unit is far more damaging than in the earlier chapters.

Echoes had revival shrines which gave you up to 9 uses in total.
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Tmaster148 posted...

It's because the people arguing this are just casual scrubs who want to feel better about their decision to play casual mode.

Oh hey, turns out you are exactly the kind of person TC was talking about!
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dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

It's because the people arguing this are just casual scrubs who want to feel better about their decision to play casual mode.

Oh hey, turns you are exactly the kind of person TC was talking about!

I don't hate on casual players. I hate casual players who act like playing casual is just the same as playing classic.
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Tmaster148 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

It's because the people arguing this are just casual scrubs who want to feel better about their decision to play casual mode.

Oh hey, turns you are exactly the kind of person TC was talking about!

I don't hate on casual players. I hate casual players who act like playing casual is just the same as playing classic.

Resetting every time a unit dies is playing casual
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Tyranthraxus posted...

I'm countering your suggestion that is bad design. Good design is something that causes you to make real choices. Shadow Dragon does it well. Once it's removed, then letting people die is nothing more than a failure state.

You should look at Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together for similar situations. Your characters can die permanently but you also have to use them to unlock other characters and there's a reputation / charisma system to consider as well that causes bad things if you repeatedly use the same characters.

Except that there's no real choice here considering the 'choice' isn't even evident in the first place. Nobody in the game is telling you to sacrifice everyone except five or six favorites to get good stuff. On the contrary, the game goes on and on and on about permadeath and that you should make sure to keep everyone alive through character dialogue, then it goes and makes an about-turn like that? As I said, counterintuitive as shit. That's horrible design. If the game spends so much time drilling it into your head that dead characters are a failure state, well, then it should actually keep its end of the bargain and leave them as a failure state, just like all other games did.

It's not like the unlocked content are purely stuff to help people on if they're having trouble with the game, either. They're brand-new content exclusive to the remake, some quite challenging even. Great reward, except it's wasted on bumbling beginners just trying to make their way through the game through their characters' blood who won't properly appreciate it, and ironically completely locked away from series veterans who are playing through the game well enough to not incur casualties even without resorting to save-scumming, assuming no guides. I state again, horrible design.

As for the second paragraph, I don't need to. I played Fire Emblem: Thracia 776, which is an entry in the very same series which does the very same thing you're praising with its possible replacement characters with permadeath and exclusive bonuses for originals and replacements, and penalizing using the same characters over and over with a Stamina system. That's a good way to implement what you're talking about, instead of the brain-dead lazy mess Shadow Dragon tried.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

It's because the people arguing this are just casual scrubs who want to feel better about their decision to play casual mode.

Oh hey, turns you are exactly the kind of person TC was talking about!

I don't hate on casual players. I hate casual players who act like playing casual is just the same as playing classic.

Resetting every time a unit dies is playing casual

It is not. Though I know you'll never be able to figure that out.
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Tmaster148 posted...

I don't hate on casual players. I hate casual players who act like playing casual is just the same as playing classic.

It is if you go out of your way to keep everyone alive, the main draw of casual.
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So if the main lord dies (at least in FE7 and FE8), it's a game over and you are forced to restart the chapter.

Does that mean that intentionally getting your main lord killed is save scumming?
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dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

I don't hate on casual players. I hate casual players who act like playing casual is just the same as playing classic.

It is if you go out of your way to keep everyone alive, the main draw of casual.

The main draw of casual is to not have to think hard when playing because minor mistakes don't mean anything when units you invest into can't die.

Classic is for people who want to the challenge of having to plan out well or be forced to either do the entire map over or continue on with one less unit.

The problem is you guys are conflating the end of the game with the journey.
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Anteaterking posted...

So if the main lord dies (at least in FE7 and FE8), it's a game over and you are forced to restart the chapter.

Does that mean that intentionally getting your main lord killed is save scumming?

I could see it being a case of it. The only reason you'd do that is to avoid consequences.
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Tmaster148 posted...

The main draw of casual is to not have to think hard when playing

No.
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dave_is_slick posted...

It is if you go out of your way to keep everyone alive, the main draw of casual.

But you have to actually accomplish that.

Like if you restart a level in *insert game* because you didn't get a gold medal, you still have to GET the gold medal, which you and Tyranthraxus are shoving under the rug. Casual is a mode where they give you a gold medal no matter what happens.
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Distant_Rainbow posted...

and penalizing using the same characters over and over with a Stamina system.

The stamina system isn't the same penalty as Ogre Battle has. It's complete different paradigm in penalties that affects class changes. Who you can recruit and what areas you can access. You need to use some characters to fight others in order to recruit them however if you overuse those characters your reputation and charisma tank meaning you miss out on secret areas and can't upgrade to high class units. But if you underuse the units they run a very real risk of dying when you're trying to recruit whoever you're fighting.

Again, it's not bad design. It's good design that was removed to appeal to a casual crowd of modern gamers.

Your character just dies forever was a staple of all PC rpgs up until the 2000s.
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Tmaster148 posted...

Classic is for people who want to the challenge of having to plan out well or be forced to either do the entire map over

You realize classic doesn't give you to do that, right? You can reset in casual too.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

The main draw of casual is to not have to think hard when playing

No.

It is. That's why it is a casual mode. You get the best outcome without them having to work as hard for it.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Anteaterking posted...

So if the main lord dies (at least in FE7 and FE8), it's a game over and you are forced to restart the chapter.

Does that mean that intentionally getting your main lord killed is save scumming?

I could see it being a case of it. The only reason you'd do that is to avoid consequences.

Err what if the Lord just died in general? You'd have to restart the level right? There's no choice at all. Why is that different?

If Classic is the same as Casual if you reload saves why would anyone play Casual then?
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Classic is for people who want to the challenge of having to plan out well or be forced to either do the entire map over

You realize classic doesn't give you to do that, right? You can reset in casual too.

You can reset in Casual after your turn. You can't do that in Classic.

Because the save system is designed to be different for each difficulty.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

Classic is for people who want to the challenge of having to plan out well or be forced to either do the entire map over

You realize classic doesn't give you to do that, right? You can reset in casual too.

The main reason to reset in casual is to save scum better level ups since you can save in battle.
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I have no problem if people want to play on casual. It makes the game more accessible, and draws more fans to the series. They still have classic mode, so you can play on that if you want your permadeath.
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Darmik posted...

Err what if the Lord just died in general? You'd have to restart the level right? There's no choice at all. Why is that different?

Anteaterking posted...

Does that mean that intentionally getting your main lord killed is save scumming?

I'll let you figure that out.
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The 3DS games were trash and not because of the baby mode.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

Err what if the Lord just died in general? You'd have to restart the level right? There's no choice at all. Why is that different?

Anteaterking posted...

Does that mean that intentionally getting your main lord killed is save scumming?

I'll let you figure that out.

It doesn't need to be intentional though.

If the game was all about permadeath with no second chances you'd need to restart the game completely if a main character died.
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Ultimately at the end of the day Casual mode was necessary. I get how more rewarding it is to play the game in classic mode but I couldn't see myself going through that headache. Maybe it's because I don't see FE that different from most regular JRPGs where a death isn't the end of that character

Anteaterking posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

It is if you go out of your way to keep everyone alive, the main draw of casual.

But you have to actually accomplish that.

Like if you restart a level in *insert game* because you didn't get a gold medal, you still have to GET the gold medal, which you and Tyranthraxus are shoving under the rug. Casual is a mode where they give you a gold medal no matter what happens.

You don't have to get the gold medal, though. You're choosing to replay unlimited amounts of tries to get the gold medal. You can continue on without the gold medal. If you're picking a mode in which failing to get a gold medal means that medal is lost forever and then bypassing that restriction by loading repeatedly then you're just lying to yourself about what mode you're really playing.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

You don't have to get the gold medal, though. You're choosing to replay unlimited amounts of tries to get the gold medal. You can continue on without the gold medal. If you're picking a mode in which failing to get a gold medal means that medal is lost forever and then bypassing that restriction by loading repeatedly then you're just lying to yourself about what mode you're really playing.

The games already has the capability of making it so that you literally have no choice but to push forward. Why don't they use it?
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Anteaterking posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

It is if you go out of your way to keep everyone alive, the main draw of casual.

But you have to actually accomplish that.

Like if you restart a level in *insert game* because you didn't get a gold medal, you still have to GET the gold medal, which you and Tyranthraxus are shoving under the rug. Casual is a mode where they give you a gold medal no matter what happens.

You don't have to get the gold medal, though. You're choosing to replay unlimited amounts of tries to get the gold medal. You can continue on without the gold medal. If you're picking a mode in which failing to get a gold medal means that medal is lost forever and then bypassing that restriction by loading repeatedly then you're just lying to yourself about what mode you're really playing.

It's not bypassing it because you need to play through the entire stage again to get the gold medal. Which is a challenge on its own and can't be bypassed by abusing saves.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Anteaterking posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

It is if you go out of your way to keep everyone alive, the main draw of casual.

But you have to actually accomplish that.

Like if you restart a level in *insert game* because you didn't get a gold medal, you still have to GET the gold medal, which you and Tyranthraxus are shoving under the rug. Casual is a mode where they give you a gold medal no matter what happens.

You don't have to get the gold medal, though. You're choosing to replay unlimited amounts of tries to get the gold medal. You can continue on without the gold medal. If you're picking a mode in which failing to get a gold medal means that medal is lost forever and then bypassing that restriction by loading repeatedly then you're just lying to yourself about what mode you're really playing.

Not everyone cares only about the ending. People aren't resetting in classic because they only want the best end. They want to earn that best end by playing the mode with the most restrictions.
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