Current Events > unpopular opinon: story is just as important as gameplay

(+) Yeah! (+)

not for all games mind, obviously tetris doesn't need a plot and it would be depressing survival horror if it had one

but look at something likes papers please which is a great game but is literally just checking paperwork. take away the context and it's the worst game ever devised by man

meanwhile look at something like assasins creed origins, a game so boring with such a bad story that despite having great gameplay you don't actually care to liberate everything and fulfill the checklists. i never even finished the main plot

it's not 1992 anymore, games that are just "see that thing that is not you? go shoot it" aren't as good as games that actually provoke an emotional response on some level
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my problem with stories in games is that 90% of the time they are poorly implemented. usually i find that the story doesnt acknowledge the gameplay, if that makes sense, which often ruins a lot of the experience for me.

Bad: the Uncharted games - in gameplay you are gunning down hundreds, if not thousands of enemies, you're lining up shots to shoot enemies in the head and execute them, etc. then in the cutscenes you have this PG-13 happy go lucky hero who is portrayed as a nice guy and not a psycho killer

Good: Dark Souls - your character's frequent deaths and respawns are explained through the story, and as you explore and see enemies or meet characters part of the plot is revealed to you organically. the action on screen matches the tone of the game, you couldnt have a dark souls story without the gameplay
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I've always valued stories in games. I probably cared more as a kid, though, since a lot of game's stories are kind of stupid.
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D
Great story doesnt mean anything if you game feels terrible to play meanwhile a game that has really good gameplay can still be fun with a bad story.
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Romulox28 posted...

Bad: the Uncharted games - in gameplay you are gunning down hundreds, if not thousands of enemies, you're lining up shots to shoot enemies in the head and execute them, etc. then in the cutscenes you have this PG-13 thriller with a happy go lucky guy who is funny and charming, not an absolute psychopath that has murdered hundreds of people with guns and fists over the course of an adventure

it is pretty hilarious how many video game "protaganists" are just psychotically brutal murderers who not only kill thousands of people in cold blood but also make witty funny dialogue as they do it

ever played tomb raider legend?

they sort of tried to address this in the most hilarious way possible. when you first meet the first bad guy you overhearing him go "boy i so love killing people! the boss told me i could get to brutally kill people today but i'm disappointed because i haven't kileld anyone yet! i'll torture the next guy really badly because god i just love killing so much! hope it's a baby or an old lady!"

i mean i'm exaggerating but even so it's such a funny/lazy way of going "see! lara isn't a bad person! these hundreds of hardworking men just doing their jobs with wives and children at home are all sadistic murderers! lara is doing the world a favor as she quips while blowing their brains out!"

Rikiaz posted...

D
Great story doesnt mean anything if you game feels terrible to play meanwhile a game that has really good gameplay can still be fun with a bad story.

papers please disproves that
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If the game is story based, the story needs to be good.
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Rikiaz posted...

D
Great story doesnt mean anything if you game feels terrible to play meanwhile a game that has really good gameplay can still be fun with a bad story.

I agree. Video games are interactive (though more and more are turning into interactive movies with cutscene after cutscene) and that is the primary purpose and intent. Story is just something to hold together going from one level/board to the next. Post Combat Evolved, Halo is a perfect example of a weak, unhinged story wrapped around some solid game play being super popular.
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slmcknett posted...

If the game is story based, the story needs to be good.

slmcknett posted...

If the game is story based, the story needs to be good.

well yeah
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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

something like assasins creed origins, a game so boring with such a bad story that despite having great gameplay you don't actually care to liberate everything and fulfill the checklists. i never even finished the main plot

I think you're very much in the minority with this opinion
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Papers Please has good gameplay, though. It's actually fun. If it was boring or poorly implemented, the story wouldn't keep me going cause I would have uninstalled.
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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

assasins creed origins, a game so boring with such a bad story

And you lost me.
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The issue is defining these terms in the context of them being part of the final 'videogame,' but what a videogame is and should provide is very ambiguous.

A game might be adequately fun and intuitive to play, but if the story presented as motivation is incompetent enough, it can easily hamper a person's investment in continuing (an example imo being several eye-rolling or 'what the fuck' story lines in Octopath Traveler, or a game that continuously undercuts your triumphs with boss fights where the boss wins in the cutscene or gets away yet again.)

On the other hand, theres a ton of mediocre games out there with average and middling stories that can only try to compare to a $1 novel, but theres plenty of people who will say "I play games for the story." And I think in these cases the storyline is just competently enough presented for the players to feel motivated to continue. Most 'story-heavy' games would never win any prizes compared to traditional story telling media.
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It'd be unfortunate for me to think this as I believe the vast majority of games have shit stories.

Nah. While a good story is a huge plus, quality gameplay is far and away my number one thing for enjoying a game.
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C
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k8ybug posted...

It'd be unfortunate for me to think this as I believe the vast majority of games have shit stories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
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Story matters, but better gameplay should never be sacrificed for a better story.
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thanosibe posted...

Rikiaz posted...

D
Great story doesnt mean anything if you game feels terrible to play meanwhile a game that has really good gameplay can still be fun with a bad story.

I agree. Video games are interactive (though more and more are turning into interactive movies with cutscene after cutscene) and that is the primary purpose and intent. Story is just something to hold together going from one level/board to the next. Post Combat Evolved, Halo is a perfect example of a weak, unhinged story wrapped around some solid game play being super popular.

I love the story of Halo though. I wouldn't say weak story. It's simple but it is a good story. At least tell Halo 3. After it sucked hardcore.
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I've been getting increasingly into older games and it's interesting to see how games had to tell stories with limited hardware.

Like you couldn't have tons of explosions or set pieces and tons of exposition. It forced a more hands-off approach.

Like comparing Final Fantasy 11 and Final Fantasy 14 is night and day. The later you're constantly felated with praise and cutscenes, explosions and exposition that it's entirely too much compared to the storytelling with 11 that remembers that it's supposed to be an MMO.

I'm definitely starting to believe in show not tell and less is more.
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In turn based jrpgs I feel story is just as important as gameplay. Even if the gameplay is mediocre a good story can make it good imo. And that is true to a slightly lesser extent with other genres.

Even if gameplay is amazing though I generally still want a story even if its super simple or cliche. I just like having a reason why my character is doing what they are doing.
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Lower your standards.

We didn't need a story on sub-molecular level to enjoy a game.

But it doesn't hurt either.
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I'm in favor of an "organic" story like previously mentioned. The gameplay comes first and the story needs to tie in with it, but in a way with tact.

I feel like Halo (except 5 and Reach) has done stories correctly. It acknowledges the gameplay comes first, and has enough story to give context to what you're doing. You can see these massive landmarks in the distance or in the sky throughout each level and you're constantly given a sense of grounding and reference. The actual plot is relatively simple so it doesn't become the main focus and divert your attention from the task at hand, like trying to read a book and shoot a gun at the same time, but it still has substance.

Wow, Paper, Please is super fun, imo, even endless mode is great. With no story.
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depends on the game, i guess
you don't need story for genres like shooting or actions
but adventure games with story-driven will be amazing

Disagree. Because no matter how good the story is, if playing through it is an absolute clusterfuck the game is just not enjoyable.
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I like when stories are told through gameplay

Like Bioshock for example. That's how it should be done. Games like Uncharted are how you shouldn't do it
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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

but look at something likes papers please which is a great game but is literally just checking paperwork. take away the context and it's the worst game ever devised by man

It's a puzzle game. Like I don't know what you're expecting.

The gameplay is good for it's genre. It makes a terrible action adventure game because it isn't one.
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Story definitely is important to my experience playing. Online fighting games and arena shooters without a story modes I can't stand playing more than 5 minutes without getting bored of the repetition, while something like Borderlands 2 for some reason, even if it's not the best story in the world or anything, I can end up doing similarly repetitive actions and somehow enjoy myself.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

but look at something likes papers please which is a great game but is literally just checking paperwork. take away the context and it's the worst game ever devised by man

It's a puzzle game. Like I don't know what you're expecting.

The gameplay is good for it's genre. It makes a terrible action adventure game because it isn't one.

take the context away from papers please and it sucks

Conflict posted...

Depends on the type of game

I feel like modern JRPGs need a worthwhile story

the unskippable cutscenes and redundant dialouge kill a lot of jrpgs for me

im sure a lot of them are great but they are like 110 hours and 70 of those hours are needless padding
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So should I get Papers, Please? Im interested now that Ive briefly taken a look at it, because of its premise. Not really a fan of puzzle games though.

e: also Id be playing on phone, would that make the gameplay less fun?
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Shablagoo posted...

So should I get Papers, Please? Im interested now that Ive briefly taken a look at it, because of its premise. Not really a fan of puzzle games though.

yes

its cheap and you might love it

e: also Id be playing on phone, would that make the gameplay less fun?

that hardly matters
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Rikiaz posted...

D
Great story doesnt mean anything if you game feels terrible to play meanwhile a game that has really good gameplay can still be fun with a bad story.

Same opinion here.
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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

Shablagoo posted...

So should I get Papers, Please? Im interested now that Ive briefly taken a look at it, because of its premise. Not really a fan of puzzle games though.

yes

its cheap and you might love it

e: also Id be playing on phone, would that make the gameplay less fun?

that hardly matters

Ok sweet, thanks!
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I don't really care for stories in games these days. I have movies, books, etc if I want that. I just want something actually fun to play.
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smoke_break posted...

I don't really care for stories in games these days. I have movies, books, etc if I want that. I just want something actually fun to play.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

but look at something likes papers please which is a great game but is literally just checking paperwork. take away the context and it's the worst game ever devised by man

It's a puzzle game. Like I don't know what you're expecting.

The gameplay is good for it's genre. It makes a terrible action adventure game because it isn't one.

Thank you! This. I don't like puzzle games, absolutely hate papers please despite the great concept. Similar story with portal.
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Guide posted...

Papers Please has good gameplay, though. It's actually fun. If it was boring or poorly implemented, the story wouldn't keep me going cause I would have uninstalled.

That dev also went on to make The Return of the Obra Dinn (all by himself!!!) so hes kind of a master of nuanced gameplay and immersive storytelling.
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This is a subject that Im passionate about. Id love to give a detailed post of my thoughts on this topic, but were so far down already that almost no one would see it.

Ic3Bullet posted...

This is a subject that Im passionate about. Id love to give a detailed post of my thoughts on this topic, but were so far down already that almost no one would see it.

You should post it dude this topic could go for another 450 posts lol

My friends and I are actually starting up a new thing tonight where we beat an old arcade game and watch a movie that's thematically similar. E.g., beat golden ace, watch Conan the barbarian.

Arcade games aren't known for their story, but most 4 player games are late 80s - 90s beat em ups and some developers did put a lot of thought into the presentation and aesthetics to differentiate themselves.

Anyway, the movies and the games are all gonna be cheesy and hacky if you judge them based on the narratives, but I'm still going to have fun
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Balrog0 posted...

You should post it dude this topic could go for another 450 posts

Id love to. And maybe I will if I have time. But i gotta listen to my audiobook While I do some work around my apartment, then read up some more in my Dungeons and Dragons manuals before I take a nap prior to working overnight shift.

These things I listed in Bold Are a priority to me since I maybe want a career in game development, where I want to make games with a good balance of story/gameplay. I can be writing DnD campaigns for my friends in my spare time while im hopefully perusing an education (coding of some sort?) that will aid in my career goals. Maybe by then I will have applied enough mental energy in the near future towards these goals to drop a badass game on yall bitch asses in the near future!

And audiobooks are spectacular for indulging in stories and getting life stuff done at the same time!

Guns_of_Verdun posted...

meanwhile look at something like assasins creed origins, a game so boring with such a bad story that despite having great gameplay

Oh man, this was kinda the opposite of my feelings towards it.
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@Ic3Bullet
Just throwing my voice in the ring as well. Id certainly read whatever you write up.

@Balrog0
Thats an interesting idea you and your friends had, and indeed strangely relevant here lol
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Romulox28 posted...

Bad: the Uncharted games - in gameplay you are gunning down hundreds, if not thousands of enemies, you're lining up shots to shoot enemies in the head and execute them, etc. then in the cutscenes you have this PG-13 happy go lucky hero who is portrayed as a nice guy and not a psycho killer

This is why I like games like dishonored that will change the story dpending on how many people you kill. Being a mass murderer in that game doesn't give you a bad ending, but it lets you know that did terrible things to reach your goal.
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I dunno how you can describe the high kills endings in Dishonored as not "bad endings"
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Doe posted...

I dunno how you can describe the high kills endings in Dishonored as not "bad endings"

i think he means you still save the day

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For platformers, little to no story is needed. A brief beginning and ending can be good.

For Metroidvanias, a story can enhance the experience, but going overboard can be disruptive. Then again, I consider Arkham Asylum to be a sort of 3D Metroidvania, and I find the story engaging.

Soulsborne - similar to Metroidvanias. I love how these games tell their whole story through exploration.

In open world games and RPGs it works better if the story is seamless. This is one reason I prefer Skyrim over Witcher 3. There are no cutscenes, so even if the story isn't as well written as Witcher, it still felt more like my personal experience because the game didn't have to literally stop for me to understand what was going on. Basically, don't interrupt me. Let me experience the story at my own pace by initiating dialogue whenever I want, or let me eavesdrop on dialogue as a I walk by. And it's a BIG plus if I can make choices that affect the story in some way, to which Witcher 3 obviously gets the nod over Skyrim.

But for action games that contain cutscenes, I think the first 3 Metal Gear Solid games nailed it perfectly. Gameplay is intense and engaging. Usually when a cutscene comes up, it's a sigh of relief because you're ready for a break at that point and it almost feels like a reward. It helps that the stories were well-written, too. By the time the cutscene is over, you're ready for more action! Perfect balance. Splinter Cell, on the other hand, benefits almost nothing from cutscenes in my opinion. I would have preferred to just be told what my objectives are at the beginning of each level.

I like games like Portal, DOOM and Bioshock, where the story just kind of happens to you while you play. It takes a brilliant writer to orchestrate this style of story.

Then you have games like The Last of Us that are basically long movies with spurts of rail-cart gameplay in between. That's fine. It's what the game is intended to be.

Finally there are telltale games and CYOAs. Clearly the focus should be almost entirely on the story in cases such as these.

Well it depends on the game but the way I see it, it's more about following through on the commitment.

A game is a game first and foremost. A series of meaningful decisions leading to an uncertain outcome. If you want your story to be "aliens are descending from the sky and it's your job to shoot them down", that's perfectly fine. But you better follow through on aliens descending from the sky so the player can shoot them down. Fortunately, that's pretty easy. A story like this is fine because it establishes why you should care about the decisions you make in the game. It provides a context to guide the player's fantasy. The perceived stakes make it more rewarding when you win compared to something like Breakout. In this way, yes, a story, in whatever extent that it's present, becomes an important part of the game.

A natural effect is if you screw it up and have plot holes and bad characters, you're screwing up the game. You get these complex plots and stories with themes and whatnot and that's awesome but it's also easier to screw it up. When you've used the story to make the player want to accomplish the objectives, and the story sucks, the player naturally doesn't want to accomplish the objectives. It doesn't matter at that point how well it works mechanically because the player doesn't want to play in the first place.

This is something some games do wonderfully and others do terribly. Some games seem to have no clue what the purpose of the story is. A great example is Resonance of Fate. Now, I didn't hate the game by any means, but the majority of the missions were straight-up "go do X because some doofus hired you to do it" and when doing X is stupid and hard and takes hours because everything takes forever to kill it makes you feel like "screw it I have thirty million in the bank anyway said doofus can hire someone else." Fortunately, along the way the game does have the saving grace of great character development, or else I dunno if I would have even finished it. And I really even considered gameplay pretty fun (until it started getting old after like 60 hours). Of course, the point of it all does eventually become clear but getting to that point is tedious and dumb.
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pretty good posts, fellas
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