Board 8 > English Literature Mafia Endgame Topic: The Cover Closes

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lopen posted...

dowolf posted...

So Han told dead town chat about this, while Ben was sitting on two guilty scans and not saying anything, and we were pretty much apoplectic. We 100% thought he was gonna die n3.

and then you were merciful for some reason.

Will stand by Ben misplaying that till the day I die. Probably doesn't change anything but maybe it does in that I don't make myself suspicious by going off on how that play made no sense for town cop I dunno

Misplayed is maybe too strong. I think he could've played it better.

Lopen posted...

Also I think between Voldemort vanilla, Dr Doom vanilla, Harry Potter vanilla, the setup was closer to balanced than it looked. Lot of traps. Also protection was weak and poisoner is strong. I think the problem was less that town had cop and more that scum book reader was of very dubious use

Yeah it took us awhile to figure that out. So, first we noticed only 5 scum in 21. Then we misunderstood Han's opening post. We thought flavor wasn't going to match at all, so we thought my role was kind of weak. We also thought poison was going to be weak because Han told us a doc save would prevent the poison. So we felt like we didn't have an unblockable kill and we were underpowered. But as the game progressed we did come to realize it was a lot more balanced than we first thought. Red was right on that the Voldemort/HP/LP was a flavor trap for town to get lost in and we definitely played that up.

I want to point out that Tom nailed all of us in one post D2. After Scare died, Tom said something like wow Scare died what if the scum team is Red, Death, Pez, Ulti, and Chris. Yeah Chris wasn't scum, but the rest of us were.

I'm fine with flavor traps but I do want to hear a satisfying overarching statement that explains it simply within the context of the game. Like if it's a flavor trap, in my mind there should me a way out of the trap that is concise and logical, beyond simply "don't meta flavor!"

On my own I'm not coming up with a way to say Voldemort should be town in this split. I guess there's a fandom who say Voldemort did nothing wrong?

I have had an amazing week so out of mercy I will not comment on anything unless directly pinged and asked.

However I was town mvp. Claiming that and walking away unless asked for comment.
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turbopuns3 posted...

I'm fine with flavor traps but I do want to hear a satisfying overarching statement that explains it simply within the context of the game. Like if it's a flavor trap, in my mind there should me a way out of the trap that is concise and logical, beyond simply "don't meta flavor!"

On my own I'm not coming up with a way to say Voldemort should be town in this split. I guess there's a fandom who say Voldemort did nothing wrong?

If it makes you feel better, i was kind of equally screwed because we weren't informed that scums own works were full safe claims. I had no way out of the flavor scan not knowing that and there was no way town lynches me without it unless multiple people claim to their own doom.

turbopuns3 posted...

I'm fine with flavor traps but I do want to hear a satisfying overarching statement that explains it simply within the context of the game. Like if it's a flavor trap, in my mind there should me a way out of the trap that is concise and logical, beyond simply "don't meta flavor!"

On my own I'm not coming up with a way to say Voldemort should be town in this split. I guess there's a fandom who say Voldemort did nothing wrong?

Dont meta flavor.

I helped.
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Flavor has been the bane of my existence since fucking batman.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I have had an amazing week so out of mercy I will not comment on anything unless directly pinged and asked.

However I was town mvp. Claiming that and walking away unless asked for comment.

That's the Chris we know and love. Why were you so convinced I was town?

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Dont meta flavor.

(I don't have a gyarados emoji)

turbopuns3 posted...

I'm fine with flavor traps but I do want to hear a satisfying overarching statement that explains it simply within the context of the game. Like if it's a flavor trap, in my mind there should me a way out of the trap that is concise and logical, beyond simply "don't meta flavor!"

On my own I'm not coming up with a way to say Voldemort should be town in this split. I guess there's a fandom who say Voldemort did nothing wrong?

Cam played the flavor pretty much correctly. However, nothing else he did made town like him.

Here's my way out, if Harry is only a vanilla then Voldemort should only be a vanilla because they're linked? To me the weird part was throwing in LP as town power. She's BG because she literally gave her life for Harry. So, her being in there really makes Voldemort seem like scum. Way more than HP imo.

Btw happy birthday @DoomTheGyarados And congrats! A video worth watching indeed.
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I mean I had Cam town literally from day 1 until the hour I voted him.

To my credit they were both town.

I want to be clear that I'm not upset or feeling like I got cheated by the setup or any of that. I'm just reflecting and making commentary on flavor meta in general.

Similar to how during day 2? I think it was? I commented in game about how I dislike day 1 killing roles on principal after seeing this. Even though scum won, that's beside the point.

It's just kinda lame to me if I'm scum day 1, with 16 town in the game...only ONE of them is onto me, and I'm dead for it. Yikes. Just not a good experience!

I realize it doesn't usually happen like that.

turbopuns3 posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Dont meta flavor.

(I don't have a gyarados emoji)

I didnt shoot him, did I?

Pez your interactions with buddies were very good. They successfully tricked me early on.
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@HanOfTheNekos amazing job with the flavor and with hosting. I would play in future games you host

turbopuns3 posted...

Similar to how during day 2? I think it was? I commented in game about how I dislike day 1 killing roles on principal after seeing this. Even though scum won, that's beside the point.

It's just kinda lame to me if I'm scum day 1, with 16 town in the game...only ONE of them is onto me, and I'm dead for it. Yikes. Just not a good experience!

I realize it doesn't usually happen like that.

Practically everything went wrong for us. And we still won. I think part of why we still won was it wasn't as imbalanced or as bad as it looked. Having 5 scum and 4 of them dead to town power actually made town rely on power too much. If we had had a 6th scum, does it play out as well? It actually might not have because there would've been more scum/scum interactions to read. And it changes what order we kill people in and maybe the scanners get lucky and grab the last guy and town isn't chasing ghosts two out of the last three days. Scum being under numbered perhaps favored us because town would go in circles.

Leafeon13N posted...

Also people got on ben for holding his scans but he played it fine. Scum scans are honestly not as valuable as multiple innocent scans on cop reveal.

Disagree with this because we had lynched two non godfather and there were 2 scum scans. Every innocent scan after that matters at lot less cause that godfather risk is now high, even assuming 6 scum and not 5
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DrPez posted...

Practically everything went wrong for us. And we still won. I think part of why we still won was it wasn't as imbalanced or as bad as it looked.

Yeah I'm not even talking about overall balance. Just the philosophy of the day 1 killing role itself is so rotten.

Like I'm recalling a time when I was mafia, played a perfectly fine day 1, knew there was exactly 1 town who would focus me no matter what, tried to shoot that player night 1, and our shot was directly roleblocked and that town was exactly cop who scanned me.

The case I lay out here is way different and just more unlucky circumstances, but point being, it feels really awful when you're just wiped out for such a tiny, tiny shred of a thing. That's how it goes sometimes! But that can be minimized.

turbopuns3 posted...

DrPez posted...

Practically everything went wrong for us. And we still won. I think part of why we still won was it wasn't as imbalanced or as bad as it looked.

Yeah I'm not even talking about overall balance. Just the philosophy of the day 1 killing role itself is so rotten.

Like I'm recalling a time when I was mafia, played a perfectly fine day 1, knew there was exactly 1 town who would focus me no matter what, tried to shoot that player night 1, and our shot was directly roleblocked and that town was exactly cop who scanned me.

The case I lay out here is way different and just more unlucky circumstances, but point being, it feels really awful when you're just wiped out for such a tiny, tiny shred of a thing. That's how it goes sometimes! But that can be minimized.

I don't like cop as a role I don't think. The information is too concrete. Yes I know godfather and miller exist, but I love trying to read the game and figure out why people are doing stuff. Cop has a random gut and scans you, whoops you dead. That's kind of what Ben's scan on Death was. He doesn't read Death well, so I'm just going to scan him and not bother getting a solid read. I think if I use cop I don't do godfather or miller, just have like a 80/20 probability of getting the right scan. Or I just use other scanners that aren't as likely to be damning or clearing.

I will run a low power game but it will have less than 25% scum.
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Lopen posted...

Disagree with this because we had lynched two non godfather and there were 2 scum scans. Every innocent scan after that matters at lot less cause that godfather risk is now high, even assuming 6 scum and not 5

Nope. You guys weren't on the right godfather track because you kept assuming 6 scum.

The process of elimination starts going heavily in your favor with more inno scans. Not to mention it gets town on the path to looking for godfather faster. Town not looking for godfather specifically worked hugely in our favor.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I will run a low power game but it will have less than 25% scum.

That's what I thought this game was. Especially when Ben came out and claimed 3 scans. I said it already, but my response to him was genuine. I thought he really was vanilla and didn't think he could lynch me without a scan. So he faked one. His 3 "scum" scans confirmed that to me. Until he revealed his other scan was on Death. That's when I realized he probably was cop.

I'm going to reiterate it is hugely in towns favor to have multiple innocent scans and then to lynch correctly through the unknown than it is to have raw scum scans.

I mean we were looking for Godfather, just certain people weren't that's why Lea and Cam were lynched.

Realistically though the paranoia was there either way. We argued to lynch SBell, and Ulti hadn't even been scanned by cop.

You'd need to have generated an inordinate amount of innocent scans to remove that.
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Leafeon13N posted...

I'm going to reiterate it is hugely in towns favor to have multiple innocent scans and then to lynch correctly through the unknown than it is to have raw scum scans.

Isn't it Chris who said that town's job is to town hunt and not scum hunt?

Lopen posted...

I mean we were looking for Godfather, just certain people weren't that's why Lea and Cam were lynched.

Realistically though the paranoia was there either way. We argued to lynch SBell, and Ulti hadn't even been scanned by cop.

You'd need to have generated an inordinate amount of innocent scans to remove that.

Had Ben scanned someone other than Tom though maybe that's different.

+1 or +2 town scans isn't going to make a huge difference

Honestly though the biggest gripe I had with Ben's play is why he did not just push Death without revealing the scan day 3. The argument was virtually identical to that of MZero.
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TLDR of Luis Spew:

Town: Camarija, Lea3Lea, DoomTheGyarados, Turbopuns, Lopen

Probably Town: Benjamin, Sultan, Scare, Hbthebattle

^ when you actually take notes night 1

^ when no one else takes notes or cares about notes day 2

Oh yeah.

Double town protection claiming to counter legit town claims.

As the youngins say..."big oof"

I get the flavor trap of 3 harry potters, but it was rather unfortunate that the flavor trap spilled into 2/3 our protection claiming thinking they needed to when they just...didn't

I guess it didn't matter much by that point since ben had his 2 guilty scans already

Lopen posted...

+1 or +2 town scans isn't going to make a huge difference

Honestly though the biggest gripe I had with Ben's play is why he did not just push Death without revealing the scan day 3. The argument was virtually identical to that of MZero.

I think he was fixated on me. I think he thought he could learn who another scum was by watching how I voted. But I think I did a good job of not giving away who scum was by my interactions with them.

I think my single greatest regret this game was convincing myself that since I couldn't be fully attentive, I should disregard my own reads at times and listen to others.

I never would have lynched Cam or Lopen if I'd stuck with my own intuition. I thought since I was mentally fatigued I shouldn't trust myself as much as others. Gah.

turbopuns3 posted...

I think my single greatest regret this game was convincing myself that since I couldn't be fully attentive, I should disregard my own reads at times and listen to others.

I never would have lynched Cam or Lopen if I'd stuck with my own intuition. I thought since I was mentally fatigued I shouldn't trust myself as much as others. Gah.

You are the reason i really wanted to no kill

So when's the next game I think I have the taste for this stuff back
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Lopen posted...

So when's the next game I think I have the taste for this stuff back

Ask @htaeD, he's next in line to host. If he passes it off, then Tom and I can host.

@lea I'm reading through the dead village chat and reminded of how much you made me laugh this game. Thanks!

Also i see dead town chat looking at our no kill.

Sbell was just too damn innocent, i think in any final 3 lopen or puns dont go after him and it sets up a 1v1 of ulti vs lopen or ulti vs puns. We dont want that, especially since at the end of the day, ulti is not good at being confrontational. Could he win, maybe, but i didn't like the odds.

With all 4 we know everyone will be paranoid of sbell since the situation allows him to be a bit further from front and center. We also know puns and lopen wont be all that trusting either.

So even if someone figures it out, they'd have had to have not dug themselves a hole.

Luckily, Lopen spent most of the day digging a big hole.

The final day was not played wisely by town, which would involve scrutinizing all players.

Then again, the same could be said for the final 4 game days.

The game basically reset after day 5 with nobody stepping up to lead effectively.

I mean there's no excuse to have a situation where that many days pass and nobody legitimately pressures a specific player. Ulti in this case. Everyone made the same mistake. Pretty sure no town who died after that point had a winning lynch list upon death.

Actually, did any town go out saying to lynch Ulti?

turbopuns3 posted...

Actually, did any town go out saying to lynch Ulti?

Ben scanned Ulti the night he died. I think Cam would've lynched Ulti before a lot of other players.

DrPez posted...

Ben scanned Ulti the night he died. I think Cam would've lynched Ulti before a lot of other players.

I'm saying, went out with Ulti on a list. Ben and Cam both died saying Sheep + Lopen

I want to say
yay we won

But it seemed inevitable.

Balance was all kinds of warped. Its less fun when scum is basically meant to win because of just one role and the others are all disposable.

I mean Bookreader was nearly pointless, and poisoner is not as good as Strongman or Assassin.
I really believe scum needs the latter
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

To balance the setup a little more, I should've made Cop Sherlock Holmes and maybe Chronomancer some sort of Doctor.

The Scum Book Reader could glean Bodyguard, Taunter (if taunted), and probably Mayor as well. Even Town Book Reader, if they consider that possibility.

Sam-I-Am was flavor cop immune, as was probably the Chronomancer. Make them easier to figure out and I think that helps adjust balance a little more.

Voldemort and Harry Potter were always Town Vanillas in the game, since its original inception. Also, back in the day, I had Bulbasaur with Instant Transmission as a flavor, but I replaced it in favor of Doom the Gyarados for more relevant memeage.

Bodyguard sure. Taunter we wouldnt even think exists since its so rare
Mayor? Thats an absolutely pointless role to try and find.
Still with this flavor its impossible for us to tell whether a character will even have a power.

Also giving scum and town the exact same role is just mean, he cant even fakeclaim his own power.
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DrPez posted...

Lopen posted...

So when's the next game I think I have the taste for this stuff back

Ask @htaeD, he's next in line to host. If he passes it off, then Tom and I can host.

Not ready yet honestly. Though it depends on how soon anyone else can go.
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Can we have one of those "X posts per player per day" games?

I would play one of those

Also general consensus among the scumteam was that the insane activity level became a detriment to the town. Doing a meaningful readback became impossible.

Good game scum
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I cant believe we got scum D1. Then scanned the remaining scum on N1/2 and lost. One of these days Id love to roll scum it just seems easier haha.
Well played Ulti.