Poll of the Day > MAGA Alert II: Trump declares Mass Shootings as a 'Mental Illness'...

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-calls-mass-shootings-a-mental-illness-problem-224000748.html

Do you agree with him? (Poll Question)

But... That's not what he said? You don't even have to read the article, even the text in the link points out that's not what he meant.
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Mental illness: another problem he'll do jack shit about.
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No. Mental illness can contribute, but this is a societal problem with numerous facets. Mass shootings would be more common in other countries if this was a mental health issue specifically. Edit: And yeah, he doesn't care about addressing untreated mental illness in the USA, so this is just an attempt to avoid engaging with more important contributing factors.

I'm going to be generous here and say that not only was that not what he said, but he also said other things you didn't mention.
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We have done much more than most administrations but perhaps more has to be done. But this is also a mental illness problem. If you look at both of these cases, this is mental illness. These are people that are very, very seriously mentally ill.

Mass shootings, themselves, are not "mental illnesses". Mass shootings are a crime - a crime brought on by allowing individuals with mental illnesses access to guns. These issues wouldn't be as big of a problem as they are, or even as frequent, if extensive background and psychological exams were a requirement to owning and using guns, in addition to continuing to own guns.

Unfortunately, we have the NRA and gun advocates that say otherwise, because "muh guns!"

It's about time he said it.
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Gaawa_chan posted...

Mass shootings would be more common in other countries if this was a mental health issue specifically.

Other countries have universal health care, unlike the US where mental health services are expensive, scarce, and not covered by many insurance providers. That makes a pretty huge difference.
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Lirishae posted...

Gaawa_chan posted...

Mass shootings would be more common in other countries if this was a mental health issue specifically.

Other countries have universal health care, unlike the US where mental health services are expensive, scarce, and not covered by many insurance providers. That makes a pretty huge difference.

That's true. I'm not saying that it's not a contributing factor to several of these shootings, but certainly not the primary one at all.
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Its a violent crime usually committed by someone with a mental illness

of course mentally ill people are gonna have a much harder time killing dozens of people in a crowded area without access to firearms

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He's said this before. He still hasn't done anything to improve the availability of mental health services. This is a cop-out to appeal to the rifle-humping parts of his fanbase. Nothing more.
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Lirishae posted...

Gaawa_chan posted...

Mass shootings would be more common in other countries if this was a mental health issue specifically.

Other countries have universal health care, unlike the US where mental health services are expensive, scarce, and not covered by many insurance providers. That makes a pretty huge difference.

The kind of care needed wouldn't be through an insurance agency, it would have to be something closer to an involuntary commitment. Most of the people who carry out these attacks are hardly the kind of people who would turn themselves in for counseling (well, unless somebody has a plan for restructuring society so that anybody who recognizes that they want to hurt others feel compelled to seek counseling)

adjl posted...

He's said this before. He still hasn't done anything to improve the availability of mental health services. This is a cop-out to appeal to the rifle-humping parts of his fanbase. Nothing more.

It seems like every time a president talks about mental health services, nothing happens.
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Aaantlion posted...

It seems like every time a president talks about mental health services, nothing happens.

Part of it is because most of them dont do anything about one of the underlying issues that is the stigma most people have towards anyone that suffers from a mental illness

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adjl posted...

This is a cop-out to appeal to the rifle-humping parts of his fanbase. Nothing more.

How so? Or am I just weird for thinking the gun culture of the US, to be a probable part of the mental health issues?
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It's not a mental illness. It's people who feel the same hate as Trump does. Who feel so passionately about their hate and political beliefs that they plan and carry out these terrorist attacks to try achieving their goals of starting a race war.

Aaantlion posted...

The kind of care needed wouldn't be through an insurance agency, it would have to be something closer to an involuntary commitment. Most of the people who carry out these attacks are hardly the kind of people who would turn themselves in for counseling (well, unless somebody has a plan for restructuring society so that anybody who recognizes that they want to hurt others feel compelled to seek counseling)

Proper mental health services include support and counselling for children who show signs of mental illness growing up. These things never come out of nowhere. There are always warning signs and potential points for intervention long before actual incidents occur. Toss in mandatory mental health screening before people are allowed to purchase guns and a legal onus on gun manufacturers to ensure that screening is followed, and you've got fewer mentally ill people with guns.

Nichtcrawler X posted...

adjl posted...

This is a cop-out to appeal to the rifle-humping parts of his fanbase. Nothing more.

How so? Or am I just weird for thinking the gun culture of the US, to be a probable part of the mental health issues?

Any time something like this happens, there's a push for gun control measures that could prevent similar incidents from happening in the future. The gun nuts don't like that. This is Trump publicly taking the position that he doesn't think guns are the problem, implying that he won't pursue such measures. The gun nuts do like that. Ergo, this is Trump pandering to the gun nuts. Pretty much everything Trump does is an effort to make some group or other like him better. It's just who he is.
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If it's primarily a mental health issue, why aren't the mentally unwell in other countries also committing mass killings at similar rates?
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darkknight109 posted...

If it's primarily a mental health issue, why aren't the mentally unwell in other countries also committing mass killings at similar rates?

It's because there is a difference between insane killing and goal driven killing.

darkknight109 posted...

If it's primarily a mental health issue, why aren't the mentally unwell in other countries also committing mass killings at similar rates?

It's not just a mental health issue, but mental health is definitely part of it. In countries with universal health care, there's greater access to counseling and other mental health services. I think the lack of affordable care in the US plays a role in its unique problem with gun violence, though it's hardly the only factor.
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Lirishae posted...

darkknight109 posted...

If it's primarily a mental health issue, why aren't the mentally unwell in other countries also committing mass killings at similar rates?

It's not just a mental health issue, but mental health is definitely part of it. In countries with universal health care, there's greater access to counseling and other mental health services. I think the lack of affordable care in the US plays a role in its unique problem with gun violence, though it's hardly the only factor.

Mental health care is incredibly difficult for most people in the USA to justify financially even with insurance. I had to stop seeing a therapist for my PTSD because even when I did have insurance, they would not cover the only therapist I had access to. Over a hundred dollars an hour.. she cut me off mid-processing a traumatic event and it screwed me up pretty badly for a while because it felt like I was stuck in what happened for days on end. I work minimum wage in Idaho and was supposed to see her once a week. Under a M4All system, that would never happen to anyone, because every medical establishment would be covered save for stuff like non-reconstructive plastic surgery.
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Gaawa_chan posted...

Mental health care is incredibly difficult for most people in the USA to justify financially even with insurance. I had to stop seeing a therapist for my PTSD because even when I did have insurance, they would not cover the only therapist I had access to. Over a hundred dollars an hour.. she cut me off mid-processing a traumatic event and it screwed me up pretty badly for a while because it felt like I was stuck in what happened for days on end. I work minimum wage in Idaho and was supposed to see her once a week. Under a M4All system, that would never happen to anyone, because every medical establishment would be covered save for stuff like non-reconstructive plastic surgery.

That is truly awful. My heart really goes out to you :/ A family member of mine went through something pretty similar, so I know firsthand how things like this can wreck you. I'm so sorry you had to go through this.
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mass shooting is a mental illness... I suffer from mass shooting and am on medication to treat my mass shooting.

....
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Lirishae posted...

That is truly awful. My heart really goes out to you :/ A family member of mine went through something pretty similar, so I know firsthand how things like this can wreck you. I'm so sorry you had to go through this.

Thanks, Liri. You've a tender heart. Take care of it.
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Yeah so about that healthcare
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BlackScythe0 posted...

It's not a mental illness. It's people who feel the same hate as Trump does. Who feel so passionately about their hate and political beliefs that they plan and carry out these terrorist attacks to try achieving their goals of starting a race war.

This, partly anyway. Not only race war. But the situation in the States isn't really about mental illness. If you look at the worldwide statistics it's very clear that those of us who do have definable mental illnesses are overwhelmingly most often the targets of violence rather than the perpetrators. It's also evident that far too many of the general public have trouble differentiating between, to put it simply, "bad" and "mad" which are not one and the same.

For the record/background, I have bipolar disorder with psychotic episodes - which is to say, auditory hallucinations - as well as obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). I'm also autistic. And not once, as an adult, have I ever assaulted or hurt anybody other than myself in any situation other than self-defence. I am not unusual. Think on it.
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I think it's more a case of not caring anymore to be secretive...

The rise in public acts of violence directly correlates with a decrease in private repeat acts of violence... IE: Serial Killers.

It's not the violence that changed, but the modus.
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What a fucking idiot!
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Lokarin posted...

I think it's more a case of not caring anymore to be secretive...

The rise in public acts of violence directly correlates with a decrease in private repeat acts of violence... IE: Serial Killers.

It's not the violence that changed, but the modus.

I dont think there were any years in the US where by August there were over 250 serial killers discovered

the violence has indeed changed

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Mental illness that unfortunately nobody will do anything to prevent in the future except argue over gun control.
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I'm getting a bit tired of people using mental illness as an excuse for sitting on their backsides, especially #45. My husband works with people that treat the mentally ill and disabled; most of them are more of a danger to themselves than to anyone else. #45 isn't about to have any of his enablers introduce legislation to stop gun violence or make sure that everyone that needs treatment for mental illness gets it; all he and his enablers care about is lining their pockets while the "little people" die for nothing.

Lirishae posted...

darkknight109 posted...

If it's primarily a mental health issue, why aren't the mentally unwell in other countries also committing mass killings at similar rates?

It's not just a mental health issue, but mental health is definitely part of it. In countries with universal health care, there's greater access to counseling and other mental health services. I think the lack of affordable care in the US plays a role in its unique problem with gun violence, though it's hardly the only factor.

I live in one of those countries with universal health care and I think you vastly overstate exactly how good the mental health programs are (and I say that as someone with a relative that has fairly severe bipolar disorder and a friend who was so traumatized by his military service in the 1990s (Rwanda, Kosovo, and Bosnia, if memory serves), he drove his SUV into the front of a military base in Edmonton and begged the first person he saw to kill him).

The mental health system here is better than the US, but there's still lots of holes. We don't catch everyone and even the ones we do get to don't always get sufficient treatment. People still slip through the cracks, even with universal healthcare.

Yet we don't have the US's issue of mass gun violence. Not even close (well, no country is close to the US in that regard), in spite of the fact we have murderous crazies here too (some of them have made themselves known in years gone by).

I also - and, again, this is me as a relative of a mentally unwell individual talking - find the whole "mental health" red herring to be a bit insulting, because most of the mentally unwell people I've crossed paths with aren't a danger to anyone except maybe themselves. Moreover, I'm of the opinion that most mass shooters - and the overwhelming majority of people who use guns for your garden-variety homicides, which represents the far more serious, if less sensational, threat - are not mentally unwell. These people are perfectly lucid and sane, able to form cogent thoughts and express strings of logic. That logic is vile and hate-filled, but logic it remains. These are, by and large, not paranoid schizophrenics lost in the throngs of a psychotic break or PTSD-sufferers who can't take the strain anymore - they're just regular people who decided that today they were going to try and kill as many people as they could for whatever justification they felt came up.

Mental health does occasionally show up in mass shootings, but it's quite visible when it does. The Aurora theatre shooter springs immediately to mind. But, particularly over the last few years, the majority of mass shooters appear to mostly be anti-immigrant right-wing fanatics (with a handful of religious - mostly Islamic - extremists sprinkled in). We like to comfort ourselves by insisting that no sane person could undertake that sort of action, but violent political extremism isn't mental illness, it's just evil.
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darkknight109 posted...

The mental health system here is better than the US, but there's still lots of holes. We don't catch everyone and even the ones we do get to don't always get sufficient treatment. People still slip through the cracks, even with universal healthcare.

Yep. Rural areas especially. When I was living in a small town I had to drive nearly two hours to a different city for psych appointments involving diagnosis and follow up. What if I didn't drive or couldn't get the time off? What if I needed appointments more than once every three months? It was a hassle that cost me a lot of time and money to deal with.

Better in the cities, but Canada has a lot more to do for mental health care.

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Trialia posted...

If you look at the worldwide statistics it's very clear that those of us who do have definable mental illnesses are overwhelmingly most often the targets of violence rather than the perpetrators. It's also evident that far too many of the general public have trouble differentiating between, to put it simply, "bad" and "mad" which are not one and the same.

darkknight109 posted...

We like to comfort ourselves by insisting that no sane person could undertake that sort of action, but violent political extremism isn't mental illness, it's just evil.

I think that sums up how I feel about it, right here.

I really do think there's a common misconception going, because honestly the thought that someone isn't mentally ill and yet is capable of doing such things is a hard pill to swallow.

Also this trend of again blaming violent video games. Played them growing up, was bullied too since kindergarten, and mentally ill. Guess what I never did? Guess what I never even thought about doing?

As someone who (LEGALLY) self medicates though we really do need better care more available. But this is just about scapegoating the mentally ill, not actually providing help. Same ol' song and dance.

darkknight109 posted...

We like to comfort ourselves by insisting that no sane person could undertake that sort of action, but violent political extremism isn't mental illness, it's just evil.

While I agree regulations are necessary, I think that's a little brash. In their paranoid minds, they usually think they're doing a good deed.

I generally don't really agree with the concept of evil tbh. It's mostly just a concept to envelope "things that are bad without reason", and it grows more narrow over time.
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Yellow posted...

darkknight109 posted...

We like to comfort ourselves by insisting that no sane person could undertake that sort of action, but violent political extremism isn't mental illness, it's just evil.

While I agree regulations are necessary, I think that's a little brash. In their paranoid minds, they usually think they're doing a good deed.

I generally don't really agree with the concept of evil tbh. It's mostly just a concept to envelope "things that are bad without reason", and it grows more narrow over time.

Some do, but that means nothing. You can be evil and still think you are doing good in the world (eugenics, for instance)

And who said evil doesn't have reason behind it? Of course it does. That's what seperates it from insanity.
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Why are people playing the blame game. The kid is a scumbag plain and simple it has nothing to do with his mental state or beliefs hes just a scumbag.

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Phantom_Nook posted...

Mental illness: another problem he'll do jack shit about.

You mean another problem no politician will do jackshit about.

I'm impressed the Trump hate boners have lasted this long. You're supposed to go see a doctor if your erection lasts this long.

I can understand why people don't like him, but your post isn't based in any sort of useful thought.
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ArvTheGreat posted...

Why are people playing the blame game. The kid is a scumbag plain and simple it has nothing to do with his mental state or beliefs hes just a scumbag.

His beliefs were that Mexicans are invading America. Exactly what Trump has been screaming for years.

But you're probably right that there's no connection.
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I declare that following Donald Trump is a sign of mental illness.
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If mental illness is the reason behind all these shootings, why did Donald Trump repeal the legislation passed by obama to make it more difficult for the mentally ill to buy guns? Oh yeah.....Obama.
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darkknight109 posted...

The mental health system here is better than the US, but there's still lots of holes. We don't catch everyone and even the ones we do get to don't always get sufficient treatment. People still slip through the cracks, even with universal healthcare.

I never indicated I believed the system was perfect. But my relatives in the UK are constantly gobsmacked by all the services they take for granted compared to here in the USA. It does make a difference.

darkknight109 posted...

find the whole "mental health" red herring to be a bit insulting

What's insulting, in my opinion, is bad-faith attempts by Republicans to use mental illness to deflect. Even then, they have no solutions on the issue. That's not what I'm doing, and I mean no insult to the millions of innocent mental health patients in this country.

darkknight109 posted...

Mental health does occasionally show up in mass shootings

We're pretty well on the same page, then. I never indicated I believed mental health was the only factor, or that universal healthcare was THE solution. What I believe is that gun control alone will not solve the unique problem the US has with gun violence. Gun control is a worthy goal, but it only treats the symptoms. The root causes of gun violence include cultural factors, mental health factors, economic factors and more. We have to address these issues as well, and I believe universal healthcare is an overlooked part of that solution. That's the point I was trying to make.
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dvdjedi posted...

If mental illness is the reason behind all these shootings, why did Donald Trump repeal the legislation passed by obama to make it more difficult for the mentally ill to buy guns? Oh yeah.....Obama.

...for starters, because it literally did nothing to address the problem. Considering that the legislation targeted people receiving social security checks for mental illness-related disabilities, I'm not sure that it would have prevented even ONE prior mass shooting and it's even more glaring when you consider it was passed in reaction to Sandy Hook yet wouldn't have stopped Adam Lamza from getting his hands on a gun. The only thing it did was stigmatize the mentally ill who haven't historically posed a risk.
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Mental illness is such a broad term

Id say at least half of the population has some level of what could be described mental illness whether they know it or not

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