Current Events > USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women

(+) Yeah! (+)

This is the correct choice, its just not fair

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This is the correct decision honestly

Yeah, this is one of those grey areas, since they still have the physical capabilities as men, so it's not fair at all to the women.
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This is better for women overall
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good, though it's only a small step forward. this needs to be something that's mandated across all physical sports

darkprince45 posted...

This is the correct choice, its just not fair

Not fair to who? The different divisions were made for the BIOLOGICAL differences between men and women.
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totally agree

transitioning to a female does not make an entire life of male biology suddenly disappear
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HessianPeel posted...

This is the correct decision honestly

I am sure feminists and people who praised the fight like a girl and do sports like a girl TV ad will defend the power lifters right to compete while trans.

Right? Right? *crickets*

meh
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Squall28 posted...

Not fair to who? The different divisions were made for the BIOLOGICAL differences between men and women.

I know Im agreeing with you

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didn't know the powerlifting community had so many nazis
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AlephZero posted...

didn't know the powerlifting community had so many nazis

I don't think that's a really fair comment, to be honest.

I don't even know if this is the right choice either, but looking at it it's not fair for someone to spend 20 years developing male strength gains and then to compete in the women's game because they spent 1-2 years with low T. The numbers some of these trans women lifters are making are unreal, a biological woman would not be able to get anywhere close in 100 years.

Having trans women competing against biological women is basically like allowing steroid users in with people not allowed to take steroids. It's just never going to create a fair system.
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finally some common sense rather than catering to the insane sjws

AlephZero posted...

didn't know the powerlifting community had so many nazis

Wtf nazis have to do with this

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Fair, next
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It's a wise and just decision.
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DifferentialEquation posted...

It's a wise and just decision.

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*puts mop on head*
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Here's an actually informative post on this which breaks down the stats, from someone within the federation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/

I'm going to weigh in on this as I'm one of the guys in Canada who helps run this federation.

When we found out about this, the 100%RAW executive circled the wagons and spent almost 2 full days trying to figure out how to handle the situation. A lot of thought was put into the decision and when the dust settled, 100%RAW will not include Mary's records in the female division, but in an entirely new division for transgender athletes. We didn't think it was fair to the biological women in our federation for Mary to compete as a peer, but we also didn't want to exclude people like Mary from enjoying the sport of powerlifting. This was the least worst option we had at our disposal at the time.

Now some facts. (And this is not to belittle Mary in any way) But when we found out about this, I did some number crunching to see if pure math could help demonstrate if this was just a baseless belief that transgender women had an advantage in female sport or if there was any merit to it. A lot of the numbers used in the male calculations come from Mary's Instagram feed as I was not able to figure out what name she used when she was male, and thus could not track down any meet results from that time.

As a male, Mary posted the following numbers pre HRT on her Instagram account

Squat - 408
Bench - 298

Deadlift 507
Total 1213
Bodyweight - 217

9 months after starting HRT. These numbers were what she got at the meet in question

Squat - 314
Bench - 233

Deadlift 424
Total 971
Bodyweight - 179.3

Now that's about a 20% drop in all her lifts after going on HRT, and about a 20% drop in bodyweight. That's to be expected as the body adapts to the new hormone levels. In powerlifting, we use the Wilks coefficient to determine the best lifter across all weight classes. It takes your total, and modifies it based on a mathematical formula to allow you to compare yourself against everyone else. Men and women use different formulas as their physiology is different.

Mary's Wilks score using the male data was 337. After 9 months of HRT, when Mary competed in the female division her score jumped up to 399. That's a 62 point jump (a 20% increase) in her abilities compared to her peers in less than a year. So in nine months, on HRT which reduces testosterone, muscle mass etc, Mary had gains the likes of which are only seen in brand new lifters who are still learning how to powerlift.

(Cont)
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darkprince45 posted...

AlephZero posted...

didn't know the powerlifting community had so many nazis

Wtf nazis have to do with this

I think this is making a joke about the "everyone I disagree with is a nazi" mentality
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When I compared Mary's results to the database in Open Powerlifting, a website dedicated to recording statistics for all powerlifting federations around the world, here's what I got.

In the 40-44 age group, Mary's male ranking was at the 38th percentile. So better than average, but still middle of the pack. Using her numbers as a female, she moved into the 6th percentile. So top 10% in all of women's drug tested powerlifting in that age group. If all things were equal in the HRT process, we should have seen Mary's results put her in the 38th percentile of female lifters, but that clearly did not happen.

Once again, I have to stress that neither I, or my federation wants to ban lifters like Mary from competing. In fact one of our core beliefs is that if you can lift a barbell, and you aren't taking PED's, then you have a place with us. But it's very clear based on the numbers provided that Mary received a performance boost from transitioning from a male to a female lifter compared to her peer group. That's not at all fair to the rest of the lifters in that division.

So going forward, we need to keep looking at how to handle this so that neither the transgender lifter, nor the rest of the division is put at a disadvantage when a male athlete transitions into a female athlete. Everyone has a right to be who they are. It's a freedom not many people get to have in this world and we're lucky to have it.
But that freedom should not come at the expense of others, so we feel that ongoing study is needed to try and narrow the performance gap we currently see in situations like this.

100%RAW has a constant mission to bring powerlifting to as many people as possible, but we also need to respect the rights of everyone and assure that fair play is followed as best we can.
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pogo_rabid posted...

darkprince45 posted...

AlephZero posted...

didn't know the powerlifting community had so many nazis

Wtf nazis have to do with this

I think this is making a joke about the "everyone I disagree with is a nazi" mentality

They literally call Jewish people like Ben Shapiro Nazis.
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im just here for the inevitable negi meltdown about this, dont mind me.

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Squall28 posted...

pogo_rabid posted...

darkprince45 posted...

AlephZero posted...

didn't know the powerlifting community had so many nazis

Wtf nazis have to do with this

I think this is making a joke about the "everyone I disagree with is a nazi" mentality

They literally call Jewish people like Ben Shapiro Nazis.

I'm jewish and people here have called me a nazi if I don't tow the party line.
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pinky0926 posted...

When I compared Mary's results to the database in Open Powerlifting, a website dedicated to recording statistics for all powerlifting federations around the world, here's what I got.

In the 40-44 age group, Mary's male ranking was at the 38th percentile. So better than average, but still middle of the pack. Using her numbers as a female, she moved into the 6th percentile. So top 10% in all of women's drug tested powerlifting in that age group. If all things were equal in the HRT process, we should have seen Mary's results put her in the 38th percentile of female lifters, but that clearly did not happen.

Once again, I have to stress that neither I, or my federation wants to ban lifters like Mary from competing. In fact one of our core beliefs is that if you can lift a barbell, and you aren't taking PED's, then you have a place with us. But it's very clear based on the numbers provided that Mary received a performance boost from transitioning from a male to a female lifter compared to her peer group. That's not at all fair to the rest of the lifters in that division.

So going forward, we need to keep looking at how to handle this so that neither the transgender lifter, nor the rest of the division is put at a disadvantage when a male athlete transitions into a female athlete. Everyone has a right to be who they are. It's a freedom not many people get to have in this world and we're lucky to have it.
But that freedom should not come at the expense of others, so we feel that ongoing study is needed to try and narrow the performance gap we currently see in situations like this.

100%RAW has a constant mission to bring powerlifting to as many people as possible, but we also need to respect the rights of everyone and assure that fair play is followed as best we can.

but wait, @gunplagirl told me trans women have no physical advantages over biological women. how can this be??

I appreciate that someone took the time to start answering a question that nobody seemed capable or willing to answer. I would've tried myself, but I had no idea how to even go about looking for what I needed.

The only fair and correct thing is math. Just fucking answer it with math. Do what u/adamaxusprice did with a good sample size of trans athletes, and then let's see the fucking results.
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Why does TC make topics about trans people at least once a week?
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Also I didnt know there was such a devoted powerlifting enthusiast community on CE!
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I understand that this would be upsetting but also how it is fair.
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Orchestrion posted...

Also I didnt know there was such a devoted powerlifting enthusiast community on CE!

This obviously has wider political implications to society and sport in general, so it's relevant to everyone I think.

How we manage transgender athletes in sport is important. Clearly putting people into whatever gender division they identify as has consequences.
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EliteC posted...

HessianPeel posted...

This is the correct decision honestly

I am sure feminists and people who praised the fight like a girl and do sports like a girl TV ad will defend the power lifters right to compete while trans.

Right? Right? *crickets*

Uh no, actually it's currently a feminist talking point to DENY transwomen entry to compete against cisgender women in professional sports leagues due to presumed physical advantages.

And it's not just the TERFs arguing the point...
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Absolutely right and no one should argue... From a competitive standpoint how can you feel that it's ur right to compete in a group where you have a significant advantage. Itd be like it lebron James said he's actually trans and joined the WNBA.

but i thought women being physically weaker than men was just a patriarchy hierarchical myth?


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Orchestrion posted...

Also I didnt know there was such a devoted powerlifting enthusiast community on CE!

Oh wow.

It's about time. Shouldn't of ever been an issue to begin with.
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I almost get where they are coming from with this... but at the end of the day, some athletes are gonna have a physiological advantage in their sport no matter what gender they are or were. It feels weird to me that this is the line in the sand they draw for fairness in the sport.


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MrToothHasYou posted...

I almost get where they are coming from with this... but at the end of the day, some athletes are gonna have a physiological advantage in their sport no matter what gender they are or were. It feels weird to me that this is the line in the sand they draw for fairness in the sport.

I don't think it's totally random. A lifetime of testosterone is basically like a perfect steroids course. And they draw a line in the sand for that too.

As above stats shows, if the HRT process was fair then her numbers would align with female lifters in her weight class or close to it, and her wilks score would stay consistent. But somehow her abilities shot up 9% in nine months, which is fucking unreal tbh.

If you suddenly develop a 9% performance increase in 9 months in any elite level sport, that's going to raise eyebrows.

To put that into a different context, imagine if someone equalled Usain Bolt's 100m time in 2019 at 9.58 seconds, and then in 2020 they ran it in 8.7. It's a crude ass example but it at least shows how absurd a 9% jump in ability is (all other things being equal).
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Orchestrion posted...

Also I didnt know there was such a devoted powerlifting enthusiast community on CE!

Uh duh? Sounds like youre upset

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Can't say I have any arguments against this and transgender people in sports in general.
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Orchestrion posted...

Why does TC make topics about trans people at least once a week?

Dude you're back! @Orchestrion
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pinky0926 posted...

an entirely new division for transgender athletes

exactly what i've been saying; create a new division.
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Some things are best left on the back burner until the rest of the meal catches up
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Up

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Solar_Crimson posted...

Yeah, this is one of those grey areas, since they still have the physical capabilities as men, so it's not fair at all to the women.

LMAO WHAT? It's actually not a gray-area at all. It's cut-and-dry.

Fair, next. I'm very pleased with their decision, but I don't understand why it took so fucking long.
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why is this news?
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RdVEHfJqAvUPIbk posted...

why is this news?

TERF wars, mostly.