Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 249: Phase 1 of a scheduled topic series

(+) Yeah! (+)

MoogleKupo141 posted...

that was a lot of words about stuff without actually saying where the part about Epstein being a cia person comes from

edit:

ok its based on something Acosta said about why they didnt prosecute him harder the first time he was in court. The thing I read speculated that he was maybe involved with a foreign intelligence agency rather than one here.

this dumb website doesnt work right anymore so I cant paste the link to the article I read

Ghislaine being spotted in LA reading a 20 year old book about the CIA, then dropping off the map completely with no uproar, despite being a person of interest/implicated in maybe one of the biggest criminal regimes of all time is pretty suspicious and is hard to be squared with this being no big deal.

Were to assume this guy flew heads of state, politicians, and royalty on his private jet all around the world, and just because they were friends?

Thats a hard ask.


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SmartMuffin posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

deep state

lmao

dude, denying that the deep state exists is so 2016

all the hip modern #resistance types celebrate the deep state

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1197537086250860545

I always took "deep state" to just mean career DC bureaucrats who rely on certain policy status quos for permanent employment. It's not really a Mr. Robot-esque illuminati conspiracy.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I always took "deep state" to just mean career DC bureaucrats who rely on a certain policy status quos for permanent employment. It's not really a Mr. Robot-esque illuminati conspiracy.

The people who advanced that term into public use (like Muffin) absolutely mean it in the conspiracy theory sense

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Much like the public schools, the media, etc. the issue isn't that there's necessarily some sort of organized conspiracy. It's that the actual result isn't any different than if there were.

They all think alike. They all know that Trump is bad and must be opposed. They all know that foreign intervention is good. They don't have to meet in a shadowy room and discuss what to do about this. They all just do what they "know is right" and you get a coup naturally. No official "conspiracy" required.
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Where is the leftist QAnon equivalent? The deep state and Epstein stuff is great but I think the left is still losing the conspiracy arms race.

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Believing Morales rigged the Bolivian election is literally a conspiracy theory, but its not fancy enough for people like LotM to earn the label, I guess.

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Lmao

There are serious allegations of rigging against a guy who has a history of trying to extend his power past constitutional limits and I don't think that his supposed win should have been accepted no questions asked so I'm a conspiracy theorist. Right.

At least Muffin has now used "coup" in this topic an even more ridiculous way than you did!

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No, there was ONE group claiming a discrepancy in the quick vote, that was never verified in the final votes.

A discrepancy that hasnt been corroborated by literally anyone else.

On the other hand, other groups like the Center for Economic and Policy Research took the exact same data and concluded it followed with the trends of a valid election.

So youre choosing to believe the actual conspiracy that Morales rigged the vote.

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If a couple different groups have different interpretations of the same data that doesn't make the interpretation you like less a fucking conspiracy theory. I'm not claiming that he rigged the election with 100% certainty; I'm saying there is reasonable doubt that his claimed win was legitimate. And we'll probably never know now that new elections are being held.

Given some of the things you've posted about other stuff (even in this topic about e.g. Epstein) you really shouldn't be calling anyone else a conspiracy theorist.

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

deep state

lmao

dude, denying that the deep state exists is so 2016

all the hip modern #resistance types celebrate the deep state

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1197537086250860545

I always took "deep state" to just mean career DC bureaucrats who rely on certain policy status quos for permanent employment. It's not really a Mr. Robot-esque illuminati conspiracy.

We already have a term for that. The Establishment.

Deep State specifically means, like, The Patriots from Metal Gear
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LordoftheMorons posted...

If a couple different groups have different interpretations of the same data that doesn't make the interpretation you like less a fucking conspiracy theory.

Likewise, it doesn't make the interpretation that you like more some kind of fact to be touted against reason, but here we are.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Where is the leftist QAnon equivalent? The deep state and Epstein stuff is great but I think the left is still losing the conspiracy arms race.

Anti-vaxx started on the left
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Iraq being a "war for oil" is still a left-wing conspiracy that the media seems to authenticate as real
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Yeah thats not fair. It was also to line the pocketbooks of defense contractors!
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Iraq being a "war for oil" is still a left-wing conspiracy that the media seems to authenticate as real

Well if there weren't any WMDs and if Bin Laden was in a different country...
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HashtagSEP posted...

Likewise, it doesn't make the interpretation that you like more some kind of fact to be touted against reason, but here we are.

My claim is only that serious doubts were raised about the validity of Morales win that cannot be dismissed out of hand. Tonys position appears to be that these doubts are completely ridiculous and/or have been definitively debunked (which is false).

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Yeah there's "Deep State" being used to refer to career public servants in various agencies like Vindman, Hill, etc. When "centrists"/people more in the mainstream call them that it generally comes off as a mocking reappropriation of the term - knowing how Trump and the alt-right use it. I don't know if I agree that "the Establishment" refers to exactly the same thing - but in concept they're very similar.

And then there's the way that Trump and conspiracy theorists use it - as a shadow government that wields the real power behind the scenes (except not really if they're all pointed out this easily.) Or when it's actually in power directly. I don't know, it gets retcons a lot. Often it involves people in the above version but it attributes way more power and authority to them then they actually have.
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Also Trump says the war was bad so thats the official Republican stance now. Fall in line Seph
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Iraq being a "war for oil" is still a left-wing conspiracy that the media seems to authenticate as real

Well if there weren't any WMDs and if Bin Laden was in a different country...

If you want to dismiss the war as wrong, Occam's razor would have it that the Bush Administration was just mistaken in their assessment of the situation. Anything further relies on back-door conspiracy theories about the military industrial complex that are no more ridiculous than a "deep state" concept.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

My claim is only that serious doubts were raised about the validity of Morales win that cannot be dismissed out of hand.

I think that's fine, but that's not the same as saying that an accusation apparently without any kind of real legitimate proof needs debunked in the first place. You seem to want that side to be correct, so you automatically pushed to "Morales needs to prove he didn't cheat."
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xp1337 posted...

I don't know if I agree that "the Establishment" refers to exactly the same thing - but in concept they're very similar.

Also The Swamp
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xp1337 posted...

And then there's the way that Trump and conspiracy theorists use it - as a shadow government that wields the real power behind the scenes (except not really if they're all pointed out this easily.)

Right, like Haliburton/the military industrial complex was secretly running the executive branch from 2001-2009.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

xp1337 posted...

And then there's the way that Trump and conspiracy theorists use it - as a shadow government that wields the real power behind the scenes (except not really if they're all pointed out this easily.)

Right, like Haliburton/the military industrial complex was secretly running the executive branch from 2001-2009.

I dont think its as much secretly running as it is openly lobbying
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HashtagSEP posted...

I think that's fine, but that's not the same as saying that an accusation apparently without any kind of real legitimate proof needs debunked in the first place. You seem to want that side to be correct, so you automatically pushed to "Morales needs to prove he didn't cheat."

The allegations of rigging would need to be proven, but crucially there would need to be an opportunity to prove them with an actual independent investigation. They're serious enough that you can't just go "no that's a conspiracy theory, Morales is going to start his next term and you can come back later if you can prove it without access to the actual raw voting data."

Of course, this has now been superseded by new elections.

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The really "cool" thing is that Trump has now explicitly cited "taking the oil" as a reason to stay in parts of the Middle East because he is a caricature come to life

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The really "cool" thing is that Trump has now explicitly cited "taking the oil" as a reason to stay in parts of the Middle East because he is a caricature come to life

LOL true

If it wasnt the reason before, it openly is now!
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Here's my take on the Morales debate:

I dont care whether or not he cheated, I'd rather him having successfully cheated and stayed in power than the outcome we got

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Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

deep state

lmao

dude, denying that the deep state exists is so 2016

all the hip modern #resistance types celebrate the deep state

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1197537086250860545

I always took "deep state" to just mean career DC bureaucrats who rely on certain policy status quos for permanent employment. It's not really a Mr. Robot-esque illuminati conspiracy.

We already have a term for that. The Establishment.

Deep State specifically means, like, The Patriots from Metal Gear

I've always had a slight suspicion that these people got into MGS and thought it was a secret documentary.
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SecDef Esper has requested the resignation of Secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer (not THAT Richard Spencer) over his handling of the case of war criminal Eddie Gallagher due to a private compromise offer Spencer made the White House:

https://twitter.com/DanLamothe/status/1198719780775243777

Because obviously he was the one who needed to face consequences here

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Navy Secretary got fired.

Not shocking, but sycophant incoming
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HashtagSEP posted...

Likewise, it doesn't make the interpretation that you like more some kind of fact to be touted against reason, but here we are.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Given some of the things you've posted about other stuff (even in this topic about e.g. Epstein) you really shouldn't be calling anyone else a conspiracy theorist.

Dude, its like you dont understand what the argument is.

Me calling you conspiracy theorist was a flip way of pointing out how YOUR disputed facts (which to be clear: require a conspiracy to be true) are just facts, while Cyclos are conspiracy theory. The CIA has a long and public history of toppling South American leftists, why does that keep getting ignored?


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LordoftheMorons posted...

The allegations of rigging would need to be proven, but crucially there would need to be an opportunity to prove them with an actual independent investigation. They're serious enough that you can't just go "no that's a conspiracy theory, Morales is going to start his next term and you can come back later if you can prove it without access to the actual raw voting data."

Of course, this has now been superseded by new elections.

Too bad all of Morales former party leaders are in jail or in hiding for those elections, huh?

And my position isnt Morales definitely didnt cheat, its that there was obviously a coordinated fascist coup that I rank his potential cheating below.

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Im going to cut this conversation off here because this isnt going to lead anywhere good and is just making me more combative than I like to be in these topics.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Likewise, it doesn't make the interpretation that you like more some kind of fact to be touted against reason, but here we are.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Given some of the things you've posted about other stuff (even in this topic about e.g. Epstein) you really shouldn't be calling anyone else a conspiracy theorist.

Dude, its like you dont understand what the argument is.

Me calling you conspiracy theorist was a flip way of pointing out how YOUR disputed facts (which to be clear: require a conspiracy to be true) are just facts, while Cyclos are conspiracy theory. The CIA has a long and public history of toppling South American leftists, why does that keep getting ignored?

Because the reason they did all that shit in the first place hasn't been applicable for nearly 3 decades.
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kevwaffles posted...

Because the reason they did all that s*** in the first place hasn't been applicable for nearly 3 decades.

What part of US foreign policy in regards to communism/socialism/regime change is demonstrably different since then?

Im not saying the CIA did this, but you havent seen the reporting if you dont know the leaders of the protests mentioned Ted Cruz, Rubio, and others support by name.

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HashtagSEP posted...

LordoftheMorons posted...

If a couple different groups have different interpretations of the same data that doesn't make the interpretation you like less a fucking conspiracy theory.

Likewise, it doesn't make the interpretation that you like more some kind of fact to be touted against reason, but here we are.

While it doesn't completely invalidate their data, CEPR isn't some independent group. It is a think tank with the expressed goal of helping leftist South American governments stay in power. It has been a mouthpiece for the Venezuelan government for some time.

CEPR has published at length about Venezuela and has been described as supporting Hugo Chvez and the Venezuelan government[16][17][18] with some of the data presented by CEPR along with Weisbrot being accused of using slanted information to support the Venezuelan government.[19][20][21][22] Staff members such as Mark Weisbrot, CEPR's founder, and Deborah James, the former director of the Venezuelan government's Venezuela Information Office, have attended pro-Venezuelan government events alongside other activists such as Daniel Kovalik.[23][24][25][26][27] Venezuelanalysis.com, a pro-Bolivarian website, has also used CEPR as their only source of economic indicators for their website since 2007.[28][29]

If one group is the OAS and the other group is CEPR, side with OAS.

This is like going "oh well BBC and OANN are saying two different things about the Trump administration so we should trust both pieces of data equally".
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You know "mouthpiece" isn't quite fair. But take their publications with a grain of salt knowing they have an expressed political lean, a desire to push things in one specific direction, and have been accused of using misleading data to achieve those ends.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

What part of US foreign policy in regards to communism/socialism/regime change is demonstrably different since then?

The part where they're not engaging in proxy wars against another global superpower in multiple continents.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Im not saying the CIA did this

And yet you keep bringing them up.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

but you havent seen the reporting if you dont know the leaders of the protests mentioned Ted Cruz, Rubio, and others support by name.

Umm, okay? It seems like every congressmen chimed in one way or another on this (before promptly moving on regardless of what their stance is). I'm not saying I agree with their stances, but there's a pretty big difference in "support" via talking points and "support" via covert military and financial aid.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

While it doesn't completely invalidate their data, CEPR isn't some independent group. It is a think tank with the expressed goal of helping leftist South American governments stay in power. It has been a mouthpiece for the Venezuelan government for some time.

If one group is the OAS and the other group is CEPR, side with OAS.

This is like going "oh well BBC and OANN are saying two different things about the Trump administration so we should trust both pieces of data equally".

Wasn't OAS literally formed in the 1980's to help oppose Communism?

This does not seem like a fair take.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

While it doesn't completely invalidate their data, CEPR isn't some independent group. It is a think tank with the expressed goal of helping leftist South American governments stay in power. It has been a mouthpiece for the Venezuelan government for some time.

If one group is the OAS and the other group is CEPR, side with OAS.

This is like going "oh well BBC and OANN are saying two different things about the Trump administration so we should trust both pieces of data equally".

Wasn't OAS literally formed in the 1980's to help oppose Communism?

This does not seem like a fair take.

Again, no. I've told you that they are literally 3 years younger than the UN before.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

While it doesn't completely invalidate their data, CEPR isn't some independent group. It is a think tank with the expressed goal of helping leftist South American governments stay in power. It has been a mouthpiece for the Venezuelan government for some time.

If one group is the OAS and the other group is CEPR, side with OAS.

This is like going "oh well BBC and OANN are saying two different things about the Trump administration so we should trust both pieces of data equally".

Wasn't OAS literally formed in the 1980's to help oppose Communism?

This does not seem like a fair take.

No, and they are literally an organization that includes representation from almost every South American government. Their current leader is from Uruguay and second in command is from Belize.

If you're looking for "US based organization with an interest in promoting specific South American governments over others" that describes CEPR 100% better than OAS.

Again, I'm not even saying CEPR was wrong here because honestly I'm not a good enough statistician to check their data. Just be careful in equating CEPR with OAS because one is better than the other in terms of being unbiased.
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I feel like that while it is healthy to question US interests in Boliva's government, arguing about if Morales actually cheated or not entirely misses the point that even if he did it doesnt justify what is going on. The interim government is led by a fringe opposition party that was nowhere near close to winning the last election and the military is now going around killing people protesting against the government and threatening to lock up party leaders. I don't know how you see that and go "well, Morales might have cheated so hopefully this next election is more fair."

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Even if Morales had done way, way worse shit it still wouldn't justify what they're doing. Of course not. I don't really see how you think anyone currently in this discussion has said anything that close to that, but maybe I glossed over something.
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kevwaffles posted...

Even if Morales had done way, way worse shit it still wouldn't justify what they're doing. Of course not. I don't really see how you think anyone currently in this discussion has said anything that close to that, but maybe I glossed over something.

See media blackout and Lotm's comments justifying it.

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Jesus fucking Christ I never said that what the current interim government is doing is okay

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You did blame Morales for it though. Soooooo yeah.

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Assigning Morales part of the blame for the current situation is not the same thing as "justifying it"

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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1198746358091530241

https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/1198757672524374016

Some reasons to doubt the official story for Spencer's firing

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Assigning Morales part of the blame for the current situation is not the same thing as "justifying it"

Whatever you say

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Good topic

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