Current Events > Doctor: Don't confuse your Google search with my 6 years at medical school

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nah, people just aren't used to anyone talking this way; it's not exactly something everyone does, because as a society, we're taught that everything we do is unique or special. That's why being criticized triggers people. I'm not about to apologize for combating that sort of childish nonsense.

Oh and btw, my point isn't that doctors can't be wrong, it's that empiricism should be the default position when you're dealing with an actual field of science. Anecdotes are only supplementary at best (not that a patient's input isn't important), and aren't evidence of anything by themselves. If you're going to shove against empiricism, you need better evidence than that.

If you think any of that is arrogant, then it's probably because you're a victim of the system. Capitalism is all about self-betterment, with education second.

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I think the opinion that this is arrogance is culturally-driven, which makes it useless to me.

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I said I think that's what the case is, not that I know it is.

You're only proving my point for me, dude. Just relax. This really isn't as important as you think it is.

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My point is valid enough that you haven't refuted it yet.

Let's try this, then: why is it arrogant? Give me a reason beyond how the majority would feel about it. If you remove emotion and bias from it, how is it arrogant?

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Okay fam.

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No hard feelings. Let's go get a beer. On me.

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I'm sorry to hear that.

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I still want to know what the person wanted to be tested for that the doctor refused. All I have to go on is "chronic irritating skin flareups disturbing sleep."

You had my curiosity, now you have my attention.
I thought the anthrax line was a good example of something a patient would come up with based on internet searches, and it's a good example of something a doctor is going to likely try to talk you down from before wasting money.

"I want tested for cutaneous anthrax."
"Sir, this is a Wendy's."

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benjjjamin posted...

I still want to know what the person wanted to be tested for that the doctor refused. All I have to go on is "chronic irritating skin flareups disturbing sleep."

You had my curiosity, now you have my attention.
I thought the anthrax line was a good example of something a patient would come up with based on internet searches, and it's a good example of something a doctor is going to likely try to talk you down from before wasting money.

Ah, a true legend visits CE this evening. I admire the work you do on Hellhole, friend.

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glitteringfairy posted...

Ah, a true legend visits CE this evening. I admire the work you do on Hellhole, friend.

Just repeating that you all were totally like this when I got here. I can't stress that enough.

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benjjjamin posted...

Just repeating that you all were totally like this when I got here. I can't stress that enough.

I'm not sure what you mean but I don't agree with those guys being a stick in the mud on page 2. I don't even like them.

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man, if you mean CE in general i represent that claim.

nice timing by the way. i was at the end of page 1 and i was like 'maaaan you know who would set things straight?'.
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Yeah CE in general. You do you.
That doctor office sign really is garbage though. It strikes me as something a doctor who graduated in the 70's would put in their office. They may be afraid of google because it's more up to date than they are.

There's almost no reason to antagonize a patient. Doesn't even need said. Handling patients who want pain medications, unnecessary tests, and antibiotics are part of the modern expected skill set of a physician. If you can't navigate that without a sign, you are falling behind as a modern physician.

Anyway, I want to know about that skin lesion.

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Veggeta_MAX posted...

Patient: Don't confuse the 1 hour lecture you had on my condition with my 10+ years of living with it

Thoughts? Comments? Opinions on this conversation?

Depends on the doctor right?
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A.i.
Is actually on its way to replace them for simple diagnosis

So dr.google is actually very accurate, in theory

Anyway, I want to know about that skin lesion.

$10 says bug bite
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DuranOfForcena posted...

you don't have a valid point, therefore nothing can prove it

DuranOfForcena posted...

why would anyone refute a point that is completely and entirely invalid? there is literally nothing to refute

DuranOfForcena posted...

in any case, i tire of this conversation now. it will just go in circles because you will never be able to perceive how arrogant and self-important you are, that's kind of the nature of being arrogant and self-important.

Goddamn bro, are you sure you aren't an alt of mine?

Is it lupus?

My partner is a vet.

.this kind of conversation comes up a lot between vets and nurses. The nurses seem to have more practical hands on care dealing with the symptoms and immediate treatment. So they become accustomed to understanding what needs to be done when a situation arises that they recognise.

But critically, the difference is the nurses are good at pattern recognition - whereas the vets have the skillset to actively problem solve.

So, I think in this case, doctors might be guilty of not having or allowing enough time to assess something, but equally patients dont really know what they're talking about even if they know all the symptoms of it.

This is nothing to say for an owner, who knows sweet foo foo better than anyone but also is a fucking idiot.

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I literally see pharmacy assistants googling all the time for OTC meds at kaiser.

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Wow the people here need to see a different doctor. A good doctor isn't going to throw random medication at a problem to figure out what the problem actually is and if meds are needed give you the right ones. Of you have a pill pusher for a doctor find a new doctor. If you have a homeopath or someone who claims woo treatments cure everything find a new doctor.

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This is a very interesting topic.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

i don't know what that means

Those arguments are almost word for word ones I use frequently.

OctilIery posted...

No, not really.

Having lived with someone who's had multiple sclerosis and Sjgren's syndrome for nearly 20 years of our marriage, I can tell you that yes, really.

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Firewerx posted...

Having lived with someone who's had multiple sclerosis and Sjgren's syndrome for nearly 20 years of our marriage, I can tell you that yes, really.

No, not really. Like I said earlier, experience alone is not a reliable teacher. You need education to go along with it. That isn't to say that someone who has lived with it can't know more than a doctor would, but simply experiencing something does not qualify you to make judgements on it.

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Working in pharmacy, let me tell you this: your doctor barely has any fucking clue on your medicine, did not consult your med list and does not give a fuck when they prescribe things. Your pharmacist will catch the 42 different possible drug interactions, correct the fucked up dosing, fight with your insurance and make sure your doctor doesn't negligently murder you while working a nonstop 12 hour day that may not even have a bathroom break if there's no second pharmacist available.

All while you get angry that your prescription isn't filled in thirty minutes.

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OctilIery posted...

No, not really. Like I said earlier, experience alone is not a reliable teacher. You need education to go along with it. That isn't to say that someone who has lived with it can't know more than a doctor would, but simply experiencing something does not qualify you to make judgements on it.

To digress a little: you'd be surprised (well, maybe you wouldn't) how many times doctors in general practice have misdiagnosed various conditions that my wife's had because as soon as they've read from her medical records (when they can be bothered to study them, that is) that she has MS, the disease suddenly becomes this convenient peg on which they can immediately hang every diagnosis and dismiss the need for further investigation (unless we've battled for it).

They've sometimes gotten quite snotty when challenged (my wife's intimately familiar with her chronic symptoms and can feel whether or not something quite fits the profile), and assumed a typically arrogant air of superiority -- "I'm a professional, you're just an ignorant piece of meat" -- yet upon further investigation by specialists they've been proven to be wrong.

Patient should educate themselves, but their experience of living with a chronic condition can be valuable too; and in my view the good GP is one who listens to feedback from patients who know their own bodies, instead of just waving their medical diploma in the air as if were unimpeachable proof of their omniscience.

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Firewerx posted...

To digress a little: you'd be surprised (well, maybe you wouldn't) how many times doctors in general practice have misdiagnosed various conditions that my wife's had because as soon as they've read from her medical records (when they can be bothered to study them, that is) that she has MS, the disease suddenly becomes this convenient peg on which they can immediately hang every diagnosis and dismiss the need for further investigation (unless we've battled for it).

They've sometimes gotten quite snotty when challenged (my wife's intimately familiar with her chronic symptoms and can feel whether or not something quite fits the profile), and assumed a typically arrogant air of superiority -- "I'm a professional, you're just an ignorant piece of meat" -- yet upon further investigation by specialists they've been proven to be wrong.

Patient should educate themselves, but their experience of living with a chronic condition can be valuable too; and in my view the good GP is one who listens to feedback from patients who know their own bodies, instead of just waving their medical diploma in the air as if were unimpeachable proof of their omniscience.

Yup, this has been covered. Doctors definitely get things wrong, my argument wasn't that you shouldn't doubt them, but that the proper response to doubting them is to get a second opinion, not just revert to your own.

KTG2 posted...

Working in pharmacy, let me tell you this: your doctor barely has any fucking clue on your medicine, did not consult your med list and does not give a fuck when they prescribe things. Your pharmacist will catch the 42 different possible drug interactions, correct the fucked up dosing, fight with your insurance and make sure your doctor doesn't negligently murder you while working a nonstop 12 hour day that may not even have a bathroom break if there's no second pharmacist available.

All while you get angry that your prescription isn't filled in thirty minutes.

Working in a recovery center, can confirm. Doctors fuck up way more than they should. Don't just take it at blind faith.

As someone who has a family full of doctors, I can comfortably say that going against most doctor's recommendations means you'll die sooner. If you die sooner, the less time they'll have you be a pain in their ass. Then the more time they have with people that appreciate them

Always use common sense when it applies, of course

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For every one person screwed by a doctor, there are ten screwing themselves by not listening to the fucking doctor.

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Bad doctors exist. That doesn't mean every or even most doctors are bad. If you have a doctor that doesn't care and just thinks pills are the answer for everything? Find a different doctor. That's not the norm.

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The idea presented in this topic being related to the science of the human body is unnecessarily polarized. Patients can absolutely know what is wrong with them from reading the appropriate literature. Figuring out a drug treatment plan is a lot more complicated with the drugs that are available today and not something that should be half assed by layperson

Unfortunately, like in other fields, the experts can get it wrong and/or not have your best interest in mind. But medicine?! Your own freaking body put at risk is a scary thought. It's sad to say but it's probably more worth it for doctors to look like they know what they're doing than it is to know what the hell they're actually doing. Arrogance and similar unfavorable behaviors could be the result of overcompensation of that. Not dismissing the fact there are those with genuinely shitty attitudes though. Always discuss doubts you have and if possible get 2nd opinions.

creativerealms posted...

Bad doctors exist. That doesn't mean every or even most doctors are bad. If you have a doctor that doesn't care and just thinks pills are the answer for everything? Find a different doctor. That's not the norm.

Most doctors I've interacted with are indeed assholes, and some were really expensive, big name doctors