Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 254: Pete's Whine Cave

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Jakyl25 posted...

I dont understand how demanding a fair trial looks like shit optically

I get that the actual article of impeachment do, but not this part

The whole thing has looked like a heavily partisan spat in the first place so it's never really been fair in the first place. Alternatively, it ain't the role of the House to tell the Senate what to do. Or you can go with the fact that they, and EVERYONE already knew how this would go down from day 1 - Trump likely gets impeached then aquited - but they look like they've got cold feet to finish what they started. Pick your poison there really, Senate just has no reason to listen to them.

Jakyl25 posted...

If they dont care, then why would he even bother to try to put forward the narrative that hes not impeached

Sounds cheeky, can make them look weak and indecisive, like the line I gave. Zero Republicans are flipping based on impeachment status here. Dems literally did first.

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Kinglicious posted...

Zero Republicans are flipping based on impeachment status here. Dems literally did first.

Real fucking easy to be able to claim this when they literally run the people who do flip out of the party

It's super easy to claim based on poll results as well as the way the vote went. If the Dems have abandoned the optics game then they might as well stick to power.

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Kinglicious posted...

Sounds cheeky, can make them look weak and indecisive, like the line I gave

So you dont think it will evolve into Im not impeached even after the Senate starts the trial
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Kinglicious posted...

It's super easy to claim based on poll results as well as the way the vote went. If the Dems have abandoned the optics game then they might as well stick to power.

The first person to flip against their party on impeachment was literally a Republican (Amash)

Jakyl25 posted...

So you dont think it will evolve into Im not impeached even after the Senate starts the trial

If the Senate dismisses the charges on the ground that they do not allege any impeachable offenses, then yes it will.

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Clearly they just have to wait for it to no longer be an election year to proceed on impeachment.

Leafeon13N posted...

Clearly they just have to wait for it to no longer be an election year to proceed on impeachment.

They probably would except that Trump is demanding exoneration as quickly as possible
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Which might be the real reason for the delay.

Trumpland might not care about the asterisk over his head, but he DEEPLY does
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Jakyl25 posted...

So you dont think it will evolve into Im not impeached even after the Senate starts the trial

not in that wording, no.
i think it'll go from "Democrats can't decide on something they voted on"/"Democrats get cold feet" style of rhetoric to "Totally Exonerated 2.0." potentially more so, depending on the Supreme Court's decision on the second impeachment articles as the last thing Dems want is him to say illegally impeached with a basis of truth.

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Wanglicious posted...

depending on the Supreme Court's decision on the second impeachment articles as the last thing Dems want is him to say illegally impeached with a basis of truth.

You say that like it matters to any voter whether what he says has basis in truth or not
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point taken.
dems would see it as a conservative court ruling for trump should they lose, republicans would see it as irrelevant since "EXONERATED! AQUITTED! TRUMP 2020!" would be a louder message anyway.

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What do you make of Tulsis present vote? Doesnt that also speak to being wishy washy and indecisive?
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something that only republicans and independents would like and see as a person trying to find the truth. majority of dems meanwhile will utterly hate it, especially hardline ones, though those already consider her to be a republican with a D next to the name. politically it's an interesting move but i don't know where she's going with it, apart from quite possibly the republican party.

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Wanglicious posted...

something that only republicans and independents would like and see as a person trying to find the truth.

Thats a really dumb conclusion

If she wanted to find the truth she should send it to a trial
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Tulsi's plan is to run 3rd party ala Jill Stein.

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Dancedreamer posted...

Tulsi's plan is to run 3rd party ala Jill Stein.

We can only hope
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nah, that wouldn't work. don't even know why that's even a talking point dems have used when she's repeatedly rejected it.

you've got a better chance of her becoming secretary of state. that's the other main pathway i can think of.

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If she wants to be that for Trump, I hope she doesnt get comfy in the office
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Thats what you want in a Secretary of State: an Assad apologist!

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Ehhh, better than Tillerson still
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Thats what you want in a Secretary of State: an Assad apologist!

Is that really any worse than every recent President being a Saudi Arabia apologist?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Is that really any worse than every recent President being a Saudi Arabia apologist?

Yes (besides Trump with MBS)

Tulsis literally promoted the conspiracy theory that Assad didnt gas his own people

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When I think of Christian values, I think of joking about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians:

https://twitter.com/olivianuzzi/status/1208858494352400390?s=21

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Its gonna be a tragic event that will force their evolution into an economic superpower?
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Yes (besides Trump with MBS)

Tulsis literally promoted the conspiracy theory that Assad didnt gas his own people

Eh, I really don't see how that's much worse than Obama selling arms to Saudi Arabia while they commit war crimes in Yemen.

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https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/elizabeth-warren-public-option-medicare-for-all-health-care-pete-buttigieg

I think there's a case to be made that Warren's falling in the polls is due to her backing away from Bernie's vision of Medicare for All.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/elizabeth-warren-public-option-medicare-for-all-health-care-pete-buttigieg

I think there's a case to be made that Warren's falling in the polls is due to her backing away from Bernie's vision of Medicare for All.

Its not backing away it is literally the realistic path forward.

You are not getting Medicare for All in the first two years of the presidency so take what you can get to immediately help people in the short term.

Leafeon13N posted...

Its not backing away it is literally the realistic path forward.

You are not getting Medicare for All in the first two years of the presidency so take what you can get to immediately help people in the short term.

When are you guys going to realize that starting your promises at the realistic path gets you nothing?

Like I said, there is reasonable evidence to believe her taking this "realistic path" over the Medicare for All promise is why she's falling in the polls. Time will tell, I suppose.

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Starting at the unrealistic path also gets you...nothing.

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I mean, theres a pretty obvious reason why shes falling in the polls.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/elizabeth-warren-public-option-medicare-for-all-health-care-pete-buttigieg

I think there's a case to be made that Warren's falling in the polls is due to her backing away from Bernie's vision of Medicare for All.

It's the opposite. Pete's base has huge support for public option while Warren's base still has majority support for M4A. The left likes to criticize her plan for this but it looks more likely that she didnt pivot hard enough and the moderates in her base left her for Pete. He started his rise around when he attacked her, and M4A, at the debate.

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If the candidates have to stick to realistic ideas, then really they all only have two possible healthcare plans: repealing Obamacare with no replacement or leaving the current system intact with no changes at all. I'm fine with having them promote more unlikely plans just to see how much support the various alternatives have.
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red13n posted...

Starting at the unrealistic path also gets you...nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

The point of starting at unrealistic is that you shift the discourse so that things that were previously unthinkable are now merely fringe ideas, not unfathomable crazytalk. If the right can do it with... fuck, everything, why can't the left do it with healthcare?

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I mean I'll say that her "realistic" plan is why she's fading - but it's because it pissed off both M4A advocates and the center that wants a public option, but more so that second group. Bernie should have gotten a bigger boost if the problem was simply that she wasnt progressive enough. In reality, lots of people dislike that she continues to promise single payer and released detailed plans for it, even if M4A diehards no longer trust her to actually do it.

Compare to Pete who only mentions on his website that he wants a "glide path to single payer" and then publicly trashes it.

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red13n posted...

Starting at the unrealistic path also gets you...nothing.

Red this is absurdly not true. M4A was barely a whisper 10 years ago and now it polls extremely well (even if you want to take the horrible polling for it where they ask it slanted, it still polls in the high 30s which is a far cry from where it would have been a decade ago)

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Red this is absurdly not true. M4A was barely a whisper 10 years ago and now it polls extremely well (even if you want to take the horrible polling for it where they ask it slanted, it still polls in the high 30s which is a far cry from where it would have been a decade ago)

Its a matter of having the votes. You arent going to have the votes for M4A on being elected.

Even the public option is a longshot of getting passed but its more in the realm of possibility.

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https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/22/politics/doug-jones-impeachment-gaps/index.html

Doug Jones is, adorably, still thinking he can win reelection apparently.

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Roy Moore is probably gonna run again, so he might!
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red13n posted...

Its a matter of having the votes. You arent going to have the votes for M4A on being elected.

Even the public option is a longshot of getting passed but its more in the realm of possibility.

The way you get the votes is inspiring people to vote.

As a fun exercise, think about every Presidential election in our lifetime and look at who has won every time: The inspiring over-promiser or the my policy is good enough/wonk type?


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I'm not sure that exercise holds up pre-Obama. Bush Jr definitely wasn't inspiring.

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Kenri posted...

I'm not sure that exercise holds up pre-Obama. Bush Jr definitely wasn't inspiring.

Don't forget he really didn't even win an election vs a dude that you could probably replace with a robot and no one would be able to tell.

I mean really though, lesson from recent Presidential elections is policy means nothing and it all comes down to whoever has the higher charisma stat.

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red13n posted...

Don't forget he really didn't even win an election vs a dude that you could probably replace with a robot and no one would be able to tell.

I mean really though, lesson from recent Presidential elections is policy means nothing and it all comes down to whoever has the higher charisma stat.

So... Bernie is going to win.

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Trump probably wins at this point.

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Kenri posted...

I'm not sure that exercise holds up pre-Obama. Bush Jr definitely wasn't inspiring.

He was the guy you could have a beer with, its the same concept that it inspires people over boring people like Al Gore and John Kerry

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Related subject, the only person I think that reliably beats Trump is Obama, and I'm sure this fact would absolutely destroy Trump on the inside.

This does comfort me if somehow we destroy all values and Trump runs for a third term though.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

He was the guy you could have a beer with, its the same concept that it inspires people over boring people like Al Gore and John Kerry

OK but that's literally just a conservative meme, it doesn't actually mean anything. Definitely doesn't mean someone is inspiring.

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Kenri posted...

OK but that's literally just a conservative meme, it doesn't actually mean anything. Definitely doesn't mean someone is inspiring.

Conservative meme?

The person who is more likeable/inspiring has won every election for the past 30 years, what is Conservative about this?

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500

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