Current Events > Fallout New Vegas chickened out by having a 3rd option for Lilly (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

They set up a really good moral dilemma of whether or is ethical to do dangerous medical research which may or may not save hundreds on someone who claims to understand the risks and consent but is clearly schizophrenic and their mental comprehension is impossible to measure

Then just wuss out like a little girl and go "lol let's just use a wolf or some shit." and have a best result with no moral issues

What a cop out.

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Don't most of those dilemmas have third options though? and if I recall you have to have some pretty high stats for the level you're suppose to be at when doing those quests to get that third option.

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Reminder they removed the option to convinced House to let the BoS live.

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Pretty sure you have to have a 90 in Science to take that route, so the option is sufficiently gated.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with the sentiment in the OP, since instances like that fixed one of my biggest problems with Fallout 3, most notably the ending. It doesn't matter how high my Intelligence or Science is in that game: the ending still railroads me into FO3's Idiot vs. Dick moral dichotomy wherein I'm either daddy's little girl / boy and dutifully press the buttons, or I force someone else to do it. They quite infamously thumbed their nose at lateral thinking with Fawke's whole 'destiny' bullshit, and still managed to get their passive-aggressive digs in even after they patched in the Fawkes alternative.

So, long story short, I quite like that NV rewards you for skill investment by actually allowing you to use your brain guilt-free in several crucial scenarios.

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Another game having bad writing doesn't excuse this

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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

Another game having bad writing doesn't excuse this

Do you have anything to counter the fact that the 'good' third outcome is gated by a very high check from a skill that otherwise rarely justifies a significant investment? Or just the general notion that no problem should be arbitrarily binary / insurmountable if you have the brainpower to think around it?

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masterpug53 posted...

Bethesda quite infamously thumbed their nose at lateral thinking with Fawke's whole 'it's your destiny' bullshit, and still managed to get their passive-aggressive digs in even after they patched in the Fawkes alternative.

Thanks for reminding me why I hate Fallout 3 so much.

Like, how fucking lazy can you be? If they really wanted to not have you use companions, they should have just had your companion stay behind when you went into the Jefferson Memorial.

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KillerSlaw posted...

Thanks for reminding me why I hate Fallout 3 so much.

Like, how fucking lazy can you be? If they really wanted to not have you use companions, they should have just had your companion stay behind when you went into the Jefferson Memorial.

You can use companions if you get the DLC

masterpug53 posted...

Do you have anything to counter the fact that the 'good' third outcome is gated by a very high check from a skill that otherwise rarely justifies a significant investment? Or just the general notion that no problem should be arbitrarily binary / insurmountable if you have the brainpower to think around it?

Theres no point or drama in introducing a complex moral dilemma and then backing out of it

"You need to pass a check" doesn't fix that

Look at Veronica and the Brotherhood. you dont just "pass an explosives " check that makes them realise she is right or leave the Followers alone.

The checks help you along the way but at some point you have to make a call or run away

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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

You can use companions if you get the DLC

Theres no point or drama in introducing a complex moral dilemma and then backing out of it

"You need to pass a check" doesn't fix that

Look at Veronica and the Brotherhood. you dont just "pass an explosives " check that makes them realise she is right or leave the Followers alone.

The checks help you along the way but at some point you have to make a call or run away

There absolutely is a point in introducing a third option to a complex moral drama: the satisfaction that you figured a way out of an un-winnable situation. The feeling that you are making a direct positive impact on a worldspace that has pretty well fucked itself.

Now granted, this needs to be used sparingly: you are correct in that the game would be watered down to nothing if you could skill check your way out of every single dilemma without consequence. But so too would the game get monotonous if every single confrontation railroaded you into a bad option or a worse option, as your actions would start feeling increasingly futile and your motivation to carry on would dwindle.

Giving you the occasional high-skill 'good' option also increases replay value, if you see such an option unavailable to you on your first playthrough and endeavor to make a build more suited to passing such checks the next time.

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masterpug53 posted...

There absolutely is a point in introducing a third option to a complex moral drama: the satisfaction that you figured a way out of an un-winnable situation. The feeling that you are making a direct positive impact on a worldspace that has pretty well fucked itself.

Now granted, this needs to be used sparingly: you are correct in that the game would be watered down to nothing if you could skill check your way out of every single dilemma without consequence. But so too would the game get monotonous if every single confrontation railroaded you into a bad option or a worse option, as your actions would start feeling increasingly futile and your motivation to carry on would dwindle.

Giving you the occasional high-skill 'good' option also increases replay value, if you see such an option unavailable to you on your first playthrough and endeavor to make a build more suited to passing such checks the next time.

Besides, if you really want a "no real best option" involving Lily, her personal quest kinda leaves her screwed up/over no matter what you tell her to do with her medication.

Full dose she becomes stable but throws away her past.

No dose she becomes insane and forgets her past.

Half dose she remains mentally unsound and chasing after her past.

Her choices are literally "lose, lose, nothing changes".
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masterpug53 posted...

Pretty sure you have to have a 90 in Science to take that route, so the option is sufficiently gated.

Anyway, I strongly disagree with the sentiment in the OP, since instances like that fixed one of my biggest problems with Fallout 3, most notably the ending. It doesn't matter how high my Intelligence or Science is in that game: the ending still railroads me into FO3's Idiot vs. Dick moral dichotomy wherein I'm either daddy's little girl / boy and dutifully press the buttons, or I force someone else to do it. Bethesda quite infamously thumbed their nose at lateral thinking with Fawke's whole 'it's your destiny' bullshit, and still managed to get their passive-aggressive digs in even after they patched in the Fawkes alternative.

So, long story short, I quite like that NV rewards you for skill investment by actually allowing you to use your brain guilt-free in several crucial scenarios.

I could not possibly agree with this more than I do. I'll take any third option over the typical 'obvious good choice' vs. 'pointless evil dick choice' that most games give you.

The Catgirl Fondler posted...

Besides, if you really want a "no real best option" involving Lily, her personal quest kinda leaves her screwed up/over no matter what you tell her to do with her medication.

Full dose she becomes stable but throws away her past.

No dose she becomes insane and forgets her past.

Half dose she remains mentally unsound and chasing after her past.

Her choices are literally "lose, lose, nothing changes".

I know, and as sad as it is, I always leave her on the half dose. I think because of how I watched my own grandmother lose her memory to alzheimers-- it was heartbreaking.

I always headcanon that my courier will help take care of Lily for the rest of his life because she's my favorite companion.

pfh1001 posted...

I could not possibly agree with this more than I do. I'll take any third option over the typical 'obvious good choice' vs. 'pointless evil dick choice' that most games give you.

How is Good vs evil choice any worse than Perfect flawless choice vs morally questionable choice vs morally questionable choice?

Both scenarios are equally paper thin

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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

You can use companions if you get the DLC

Not that you had any to begin with, but you lost all credibility here.

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KillerSlaw posted...

Reminder they removed the option to convinced House to let the BoS live.

Eh, that makes sense though. BoS and House had like completely different worldviews.

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I4NRulez posted...

Eh, that makes sense though. BoS and House had like completely different worldviews.

That's kind of my point though. They could have had way worse "third options" and they actively chose against it.

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dave_is_slick posted...

Not that you had any to begin with, but you lost all credibility here.

Wut?

Why so hostile?

KillerSlaw posted...

That's kind of my point though. They could have had way worse "third options" and they actively chose against it.

I don't see how that's worse than "Lets just ignore the moral dilemma and do some shit with a wolf" Lilly solution

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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

Wut?

Why so hostile?

A third option that's locked behind a high skill gate means you're character actually has to have real knowledge on this before they thought of a way beyond A and B. It wasn't just thrown in. And Broken Steel should never have been a requirement for surviving. You literally get your last companion for this quest. Said companion is immune to radiation. A competent writing team would've realized that and had it as an option from the beginning.

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There's literally nothing wrong with as many choices as they can think of. That's the point of a role playing game.

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dave_is_slick posted...

A third option that's locked behind a high skill gate means you're character actually has to have real knowledge on this before they thought of a way beyond A and B. It wasn't just thrown in. And Broken Steel should never have been a requirement for surviving. You literally get your last companion for this quest. Said companion is immune to radiation. A competent writing team would've realized that and had it as an option from the beginning.

Ok?

I don't get how this is relevant to Lily's quest. You're just ranting that you don't like FO3's ending.

Vyrulisse posted...

There's literally nothing wrong with as many choices as they can think of. That's the point of a role playing game.

Disagree massively

They could give you the choice to wear womens underwear and end the NCR/Leigon war peacefully by giving out free blowjobs to everyone at Hoover Dam and it would be utterly awful.

Quality over quantity. More doesn't mean better. Turning a moral dilemma into no dilemma whatsoever is just... well boring

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You don't have to pick that option, though.

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Sure but there is literally no reason not to pick it. It's objectively superior to the other options and ends the dilemma.

Which is poo. Kinda tarnishes an interesting idea

There is no trolly problem if there is a 3rd track with no one on it.

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masterpug53 posted...

There absolutely is a point in introducing a third option to a complex moral drama: the satisfaction that you figured a way out of an un-winnable situation. The feeling that you are making a direct positive impact on a worldspace that has pretty well fucked itself.

Now granted, this needs to be used sparingly: you are correct in that the game would be watered down to nothing if you could skill check your way out of every single dilemma without consequence. But so too would the game get monotonous if every single confrontation railroaded you into a bad option or a worse option, as your actions would start feeling increasingly futile and your motivation to carry on would dwindle.

Giving you the occasional high-skill 'good' option also increases replay value, if you see such an option unavailable to you on your first playthrough and endeavor to make a build more suited to passing such checks the next time.

Solid post.

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Guns_of_Verdun posted...

There is no trolly problem if there is a 3rd track with no one on it.

GOOD! Every single game I can think of that has something like that ignores a very obvious third option. I'm glad NV has these.

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