Current Events > Redditor shares unpopular incelish opinion on front page

(+) Yeah! (+)

REMercsChamp posted...

I always knew in the back of my mind that it was WOMENS fault that I dropped out of university and ended up doing nothing with my life. And now, I am finally validated.

I mean, this could easily be directed towards women who are angry about their gender studies degrees amounting to nothing.

This topic doesn't validate individual failures so much as it points out actual trends in society. Trends that we'll probably want to fix before they become endemic within the population.

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The problem with these complaints is that they're always directed at women. Men are the ones who put all of the systems and conditions in place to cause those issues that men suffer from. Direct your anger towards them.

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toyota posted...

This is interesting because despite women getting higher earning/status positions in society, they still seem to have this innate desire to marry another man who is of even higher status or who would still be the breadwinner.

Eg.
Male Doctor would have no issues dating the cute female nurse or female retail worker but a
Female Doctor pretty much would most likely never want to date the handsome male nurse or male retail worker.

Heck in my sisters workplace she said that the other female accountants were basically mocking the idea of hiring a male receptionist and how that would be so weird when they were in the hiring process lol

Women prop up the patriarchy more than they want to admit. With how sickeningly fake and malleable dudes are with regards to getting pussy, women determine our behaviors a lot more than they think.

Us dudes should be ashamed.

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ssk9716757 posted...

The problem with these complaints is that they're always directed at women. Men are the ones who put all of the systems and conditions in place to cause those issues that men suffer from. Direct your anger towards them.

Women do plenty to perpetuate toxic masculinity.

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BettyWhite posted...

Women do plenty to perpetuate toxic masculinity.

Nowhere near as much as men do, and they also didn't create it.

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there are a few hints of valid points at times in that post, but that subreddit is not a good place for actually engaging in discussion of things like that, and I'm willing to bet that that user knows that.

(for what it's worth, CE is also not a good place to do that)

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ssk9716757 posted...

Nowhere near as much as men do, and they also didn't create it.

Until women stop desiring powerful assholes, powerful assholes will continue to thrive.


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BettyWhite posted...

Until women stop desiring powerful assholes, powerful assholes will continue to thrive.

Men created that desire by establishing the rules/norms for culture and society

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ssk9716757 posted...

Men created that desire by establishing the rules/norms for culture and society

Biological imperatives created those norms. Desiring a strong male to more effectively protect the family unit is pretty much common throughout the animal kingdom.

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BettyWhite posted...

Until women stop desiring powerful assholes, powerful assholes will continue to thrive.

powerful assholes thriving is not a function of women "desiring" them

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Darmik posted...

Society has a problem talking about issues. Whether it's stuff like male depression or #MeToo. People just keep being combative over it and it doesn't help when people bring up other movements to say things are unfair.

True enough. I think one of the biggest factors in this hostility is people butting in with their baggage when someone is talking about theirs. Like if a woman is talking about how people have been leering at her since she was a teenager, and some clod busts in like "WELL MEN COMMIT SUICIDE MORE THAN WOMEN, SO YOUR PROBLEMS CAN'T BE THAT BAD, CAN THEY?" or if a guy is talking about how he was bullied for years and no-one in his life would support him outside of telling him to "man up", and someone comments "YOUR ONLY DIFFICULTY IN LIFE IS BEING MALE, YOU NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH OGLING OR PERIODS AND YOU'LL ALMOST CERTAINLY NEVER GET RAPED LIKE A WOMAN MIGHT BE!" It's those encounters with the bottom of the barrel that really steels people against certain subsets of folks.

With that being said, there are concepts being pushed by feminists that do try to fix societal problems that target men. That's the whole thing about "toxic masculinity" - some rando will see that and think "grr, she said men bad!", but it's about cutting that "be a man" shit out and getting guys to cope with their shit better. Like, guys are encouraged to bottle up their feelings in fear of appearing weak, even to their parents. It's expected of guys to binge-drink with the boys when they're young, even if it destroys their friendships and relationships. It's accepted that men should take bolder risks than women, even if it results in getting hurt. The concept of toxic masculinity is basically "there's no right or wrong way to be a man". And in response to rhetoric like this, I see responses like "fucking whamen just want to cuckify all men, turn us all into soyboy pussies".

There's absolutely an issue with talking about one's particular perspective, without another person trying to put your perspective down in service of their own experiences. People are afraid to concede points to someone, or work with an opinion to find common ground. Feminists always have their guard up vecause they're used to dipshits arguing in bad faith, and guys are always on guard against anything "SJW-y" because they either feel like that perspective is detrimental or harmful to their position, or they think it's a bunch of bullshit lies made in bad faith to "further an agenda" instead of helping anyone. The outright hostility that's spawned from online discourse is feeding into itself and creating more division.

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BettyWhite posted...

Biological imperatives created those norms. Desiring a strong male to more effectively protect the family unit is pretty much common throughout the animal kingdom.

Men ran with it and made it the basis of society. Women have historically been the ones challenging that.

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ssk9716757 posted...

Men ran with it and made it the basis of society. Women have historically been the ones challenging that.

So as men we can tell women to stop being attracted to powerful assholes?

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BettyWhite posted...

Until women stop desiring powerful assholes, powerful assholes will continue to thrive.

Powerful assholes thrive because they're rewarded with wealth and influence.

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averagejoel posted...

powerful assholes thriving is not a function of women "desiring" them

Explain why a woman would even touch Trump if powerful men aren't desired.

And generally, people tend to emulate success.


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Jabodie posted...

So as men we can tell women to stop being attracted to powerful assholes?

Yes, if you promote less toxic masculinity then attitudes will change over generations. Women are more open to emotional/vulnerable guys today than 50 years ago, for example.

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ssk9716757 posted...

Men ran with it and made it the basis of society. Women have historically been the ones challenging that.

Women challenge what negatively affects them while ignoring the positives of patriarchal rule. It's sorta the point of this discussion.

It's not their job to fix it, but you're here acting like women are just innocent bystanders who have done nothing to affect their own hand.

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BettyWhite posted...

Explain why a woman would even touch Trump if powerful men aren't desired.

And generally, people tend to emulate success.

Most women are absolutely disgusted by Trump. But he's famous. Even if only 1% of people who know him who are attracted to his fame and wealth that's still a lot of people

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For the sake of argument, what patriarchal rules positively affect women?

Also regarding my post number: nice

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ssk9716757 posted...

Yes, if you promote less toxic masculinity then attitudes will change over generations. Women are more open to emotional/vulnerable guys today than 50 years ago, for example.

And that was caused by men? Not women?

Edit: I'm not trying to troll here, but actually trying to understand this logic.

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BettyWhite posted...

Women challenge what negatively affects them while ignoring the positives of patriarchal rule. It's sorta the point of this discussion.

It's not their job to fix it, but you're here acting like women are just innocent bystanders who have done nothing to affect their own hand.

Women aren't a hive mind who all want the same thing. There are still women out there who think it's their role to stay at home and raise kids.

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BettyWhite posted...

Explain why a woman would even touch Trump if powerful men aren't desired.

And generally, people tend to emulate success.

your initial statement was powerful "assholes" being desired. now you're just saying powerful men. which one do you mean?

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Jabodie posted...

And that was caused by men? Not women?

Edit: I'm not trying to troll here, but actually trying to understand this logic.

The movement was started by women but men can stop pushing against it and go along with it, which would make change happen faster.

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MrMallard posted...

True enough. I think one of the biggest factors in this hostility is people butting in with their baggage when someone is talking about theirs. Like if a woman is talking about how people have been leering at her since she was a teenager, and some clod busts in like "WELL MEN COMMIT SUICIDE MORE THAN WOMEN, SO YOUR PROBLEMS CAN'T BE THAT BAD, CAN THEY?" or if a guy is talking about how he was bullied for years and no-one in his life would support him outside of telling him to "man up", and someone comments "YOUR ONLY DIFFICULTY IN LIFE IS BEING MALE, YOU NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH OGLING OR PERIODS AND YOU'LL ALMOST CERTAINLY NEVER GET RAPED LIKE A WOMAN MIGHT BE!" It's those encounters with the bottom of the barrel that really steels people against certain subsets of folks.

With that being said, there are concepts being pushed by feminists that do try to fix societal problems that target men. That's the whole thing about "toxic masculinity" - some rando will see that and think "grr, she said men bad!", but it's about cutting that "be a man" shit out and getting guys to cope with their shit better. Like, guys are encouraged to bottle up their feelings in fear of appearing weak, even to their parents. It's expected of guys to binge-drink with the boys when they're young, even if it destroys their friendships and relationships. It's accepted that men should take bolder risks than women, even if it results in getting hurt. The concept of toxic masculinity is basically "there's no right or wrong way to be a man". And in response to rhetoric like this, I see responses like "fucking whamen just want to cuckify all men, turn us all into soyboy pussies".

There's absolutely an issue with talking about one's particular perspective, without another person trying to put your perspective down in service of their own experiences. People are afraid to concede points to someone, or work with an opinion to find common ground. Feminists always have their guard up vecause they're used to dipshits arguing in bad faith, and guys are always on guard against anything "SJW-y" because they either feel like that perspective is detrimental or harmful to their position, or they think it's a bunch of bullshit lies made in bad faith to "further an agenda" instead of helping anyone. The outright hostility that's spawned from online discourse is feeding into itself and creating more division.

All well said.

Honestly a lot of this is just due to the nature of social media. The loudest voices always come through the most. But on the other hand these things wouldn't be discussed anywhere near as much. It all sort of sucks.

Yet when actual individuals are out in the real world and talk about these things it's much easier for everyone to see other perspectives. It's so much easier arguing against an online version of your opposition because they're not an individual person.

Ah well. Social media just sort of sucks but has good stuff sometimes I guess.

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averagejoel posted...

your initial statement was powerful "assholes" being desired. now you're just saying powerful men. which one do you mean?

They're generally the same thing.

A powerful man who isn't an asshole is extremely rare. The traits between the two are heavily interchangeable.

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BettyWhite posted...

Women challenge what negatively affects them while ignoring the positives of patriarchal rule. It's sorta the point of this discussion.

It's not their job to fix it, but you're here acting like women are just innocent bystanders who have done nothing to affect their own hand.

Why wouldn't they address the stuff that negatively affects them first? You don't treat a headache (or someone else's headache) first if you have a broken leg.

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BettyWhite posted...

They're generally the same thing.

A powerful man who isn't an asshole is extremely rare. The traits between the two are heavily interchangeable.

And what does that have to do with women desiring them? Why is that the only factor and not say the people who continue to give them money?

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MrMallard posted...

For the sake of argument, what patriarchal rules positively affect women?

Also regarding my post number: nice

Almost all of the really shitty parts of being a woman have a nice side to them.

I mean shit, have you seen the money cam girls get thrown at them for doing absolutely nothing? Ugh. I fucking hate dudes..

Both sexes definitely perpetuate shitty behavior in the other for sake of something we find desirable.


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BettyWhite posted...

They're generally the same thing.

A powerful man who isn't an asshole is extremely rare. The traits between the two are heavily interchangeable.

ok

now, I take issue with your premise: until you show some actual data suggesting that women desire "powerful assholes" significantly more than people who are not powerful assholes, I will treat your point with nothing but skepticism

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Darmik posted...

And what does that have to do with women desiring them? Why is that the only factor and not say the people who continue to give them money?

The businessman is a good businessman because he's an asshole.

Women biologically desire the man most capable of taking care of them. That man is generally an asshole.


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BettyWhite posted...

Women biologically desire the man most capable of taking care of them. That man is generally an asshole.

[citation needed] for both of these things

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BettyWhite posted...

Almost all of the really shitty parts of being a woman have a nice side to them.

No.

BettyWhite posted...

The businessman is a good businessman because he's an asshole.

Women biologically desire the man most capable of taking care of them. That man is generally an asshole.

Except trailer trash deadbeats and guys in prison for life after murdering people still find women.

Women desire who they're attracted to. Sometimes it's wealth. Sometimes it's charisma. Sometimes it's looks. Sometimes it's a combination of lots of things.

Do you only desire things that males biologically desire or are you as an individual more complex than that?

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averagejoel posted...

ok

now, I take issue with your premise: until you show some actual data suggesting that women desire "powerful assholes" significantly more than people who are not powerful assholes, I will treat your point with nothing but skepticism

Women desire powerful men.

Powerful men generally become powerful through characteristics that one would deem assholish.

It's not a conscious decision that women have made, it's just a natural trait that negatively affects the overall goal of an egalitarian society.

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BettyWhite posted...

Women desire powerful men.

Powerful men generally become powerful through characteristics that one would deem assholish.

It's not a conscious decision that women have made, it's just a natural trait that negatively affects the overall goal of an egalitarian society.

that is not a citation

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Darmik posted...

No.

Except trailer trash deadbeats and guys in prison for life after murdering people still find women.

Women desire who they're attracted to. Sometimes it's wealth. Sometimes it's charisma. Sometimes it's looks. Sometimes it's a combination of lots of things.

Do you only desire things that males biologically desire or are you as an individual more complex than that?

Charisma=social power
Muscles=physical power
Money=fiscal power

Funny how you named men that are generally powerful in their own way.

Never did I say money was the only factor.

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BettyWhite posted...

Charisma=social power
Muscles=physical power
Money=fiscal power

Funny how you named men that are generally powerful in their own way.

Never did I say money was the only factor.

Do you think everyone who is charismatic, fit or has money is an asshole?

Assuming of course that those are the only people who get women. Which isn't remotely true.

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The fact that y'all are arguing that women aren't generally attracted to power is ridiculous.

I guess all those ladies liked Hugh Hefner for his personality.

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Darmik posted...

Do you think everyone who is charismatic, fit or has money is an asshole?

Assuming of course that those are the only people who get women. Which isn't remotely true.

Y'all will strawman the fuck out of an argument won't you?


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BettyWhite posted...

The fact that y'all are arguing that women aren't generally attracted to power is ridiculous.

I guess all those ladies liked Hugh Hefner for his personality.

you're the one making the claim. you need to provide evidence for it

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BettyWhite posted...

The fact that y'all are arguing that women aren't generally attracted to power is ridiculous.

I guess all those ladies liked Hugh Hefner for his personality.

This was already talked about. Everybody is attracted to power. Doesn't mean power is the only thing that attracts people.

Lets go all the way back to this;

BettyWhite posted...

Until women stop desiring powerful assholes, powerful assholes will continue to thrive.

What do you expect to be done here? You've said that power includes charisma, fitness and money.

So what should women (or anyone else) be attracted to? What are you hoping for here?

BettyWhite posted...

Y'all will strawman the fuck out of an argument won't you?

I'm following the logic of your posts. Which is having power = asshole and power = charisma, muscles or money.

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BettyWhite posted...

Y'all will strawman the fuck out of an argument won't you?

he's literally using your words

BettyWhite posted...

A powerful man who isn't an asshole is extremely rare. The traits between the two are heavily interchangeable.

BettyWhite posted...

Charisma=social power
Muscles=physical power
Money=fiscal power

Funny how you named men that are generally powerful in their own way.

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Women desire powerful men.

Powerful men often come with toxic traits.

Those toxic traits are fucking our society up.

Women still desire powerful men even if they come with those toxic traits.

It's almost like desiring traits promoted in the patriarchy are capable of perpetuating the patriarchy.

Ignoring it is creating it's own problem.. Men must fix most of it, but women need to own up too.

The end.

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BettyWhite posted...

Women desire powerful men.

Powerful men often come with toxic traits.

Those toxic traits are fucking our society up.

Women still desire powerful men.

It's almost like desiring traits promoted in the patriarchy are capable of perpetuating the patriarchy.

Ignoring it is creating it's own problem.. Men must fix most of it, but women need to own up too.

The end.

while there are a couple statements here that I don't really take issue with, I would like to reiterate that you still have not provided a single bit of evidence for any of them.

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BettyWhite posted...

Powerful men often come with toxic traits.

Which are what in your opinion?

BettyWhite posted...

It's almost like desiring traits promoted in the patriarchy are capable of perpetuating the patriarchy.

You've been saying that power is desired. Not that toxic traits are desired.

BettyWhite posted...

Ignoring it is creating it's own problem.. Men must fix most of it, but women need to own up too.

What are you expected them to own up to?

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These problems that Men deal with is exactly personified by Scotty_Rogers

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averagejoel posted...

while there are a couple statements here that I don't really take issue with, I would like to reiterate that you still have not provided a single bit of evidence for any of them.

It's all anecdotal.

I understand the burden of proof is on me, but this is gamefaqs and I don't care that much. I've honestly wasted too much time on this thread as it is.

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BettyWhite posted...

It's all anecdotal.

I understand the burden of proof is on me, but this is gamefaqs and I don't care that much. I've honestly wasted too much time on this thread as it is.

thank you for acknowledging that your posts so far carry no weight.

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averagejoel posted...

thank you for acknowledging that your posts so far carry no weight.

And neither do yours.

Though I guess I can't say that since you've avoided making a point at all. Just joining with your buddy and endlessly asking questions to attack my obviously unrefined opinion.

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Darmik posted...

Which are what in your opinion?

You've been saying that power is desired. Not that toxic traits are desired.

What are you expected them to own up to?

Are you honestly pretending that you're unaware of the toxic traits associated with powerful people?

When did I say toxic traits are desired? Nice strawman. Powerful traits are desired that often come paired with undesired toxic traits.

This is overall your best point. Women are attracted to what they're attracted to and I don't know how that will change. Men aren't any better, if not worse, for the negative traits that we inadvertently push upon women.

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