Current Events > Should a gun owner be charged with the crimes their gun commits if...

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John is a gun owner. Bill is his brother's best friend, and is on good trusting terms with John.

John leaves his Desert Eagle handgun, loaded, in his gun safe. John opens his gun safe, with intentions to go to the gun range in town. However he gets distracted by a p

Yes

He would be charged if it was his car wouldn't he?

Because of the negligence of the owner then they should have to pay a fine or something, possibly worse depending on how bad the negligence is.

If the gun is just stolen then no punishment, that would be stupid.
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So Bill steals Johns gun, and you think John is responsible? LOL

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karlpilkington4 posted...

So Bill steals Johns gun, and you think John is responsible? LOL

John left his gun safe unsecure.

If Bill had picked into or forcefully entered the gun safe then John would be innocent. However, John left his gun available, through his negligence.


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wackyteen posted...

John left his gun safe unsecure.

If Bill had picked into or forcefully entered the gun safe then John would be innocent. However, John left his gun available, through his negligence.

The NRA probably thinks John should be a hero because his precious gun was taken

Nope.
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wackyteen posted...

John left his gun safe unsecure.

If Bill had picked into or forcefully entered the gun safe then John would be innocent. However, John left his gun available, through his negligence.

The gun is literally in his house. You're acting like he handed it to someone to use illegally.There is no law stating that a private citizen needs to keep their gun locked in a gunsafe.

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cmiller4642 posted...

And of course nothing will get done about it

America values guns over innocent lives

His mother should have faced criminal charges

Well she can't, because she was the first murdered.

Also, we have thousands of individual gun laws across state and federal levels. As far as rights go, the second is one of the most regulated. The rest of your post is needless rhetoric as there's literally debates, marches, protests, and law proposals every other day in this country over gun restrictions and control.

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Malcrasternus posted...

Well she can't, because she was the first murdered.

Also, we have thousands of individual gun laws across state and federal levels. As far as rights go, the second is one of the most regulated. The rest of your post is needless rhetoric as there's literally debates, marches, protests, and law proposals every other day in this country over gun restrictions and control.

I forgot she was murdered

Of course people like you again value your access to guns over the lives of 6 year old children.

We should start charging people for law enforcements time.

Someone broke into your house? That'll be $500 for us to come out

Someone murdered your sister? That'll be $10,000 for a homicide investigation

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glitteringfairy posted...

We should start charging people for law enforcements time.

Someone broke into your house? That'll be $500 for us to come out

Someone murdered your sister? That'll be $10,000 for a homicide investigation

Libertarian dream

cmiller4642 posted...

I forgot she was murdered

How convenient.

cmiller4642 posted...

Of course people like you again value your access to guns over the lives of 6 year old children.

And you selectively read. How fun.

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In TC's example John was not criminally negligent. Criminal negligence requires guilt of action and guilt of mind. What Bill did takes away the guilt of mind for John, and certainly takes away any chance of conviction.
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Charge the gun owner for murder as well in that case? Lol what the fuck no.

That's like charging the owner of a car jacked vehicle with a crime if the jacker crashes.
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The gun owner does need to be responsible in some capacity. Especially depending on context.

If the dude leaves his safe unlocked with the gun sitting there, the fine needs to be bigger than if the gun was straight up locked away safely and the other dude broke in or something.

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PatrickMahomes posted...

The gun owner does need to be responsible in some capacity. Especially depending on context.

If the dude leaves his safe unlocked with the gun sitting there, the fine needs to be bigger than if the gun was straight up locked away safely and the other dude broke in or something.

If someone broke into his house then no he or she shouldn't be charged

If his kid took the gun and used it to shoot up the school then hell yes he or she should be charged with a crime

cmiller4642 posted...

If someone broke into his house then no he or she shouldn't be charged

If his kid took the gun and used it to shoot up the school then hell yes he or she should be charged with a crime

Yeah
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Only in the case of negligence, leaving it outside or letting a minor access it. If an unrelated adult steals it from inside your home, it's their fault and their fault alone.

Absolutely. Also, if someone gets drunk at a party and wrecks and kills someone, the person who threw the party should face criminal charges.


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nemu posted...

Only in the case of negligence, leaving it outside or letting a minor access it. If an unrelated adult steals it from inside your home, it's their fault and their fault alone.

A minor having access to it, shouldn't matter. If a minor grabs a knife from the kitchen and accidentally stabs someone, should you go to jail for that too?

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karlpilkington4 posted...

A minor having access to it, shouldn't matter. If a minor grabs a knife from the kitchen and accidentally stabs someone, should you go to jail for that too?

As items become more dangerous, more responsibility needs to be applied. Little Timmy taking the steak knives to school is dangerous, but not as dangerous as taking a loaded gun.

Who on earth is keeping loaded guns in a safe and why
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nemu posted...

As items become more dangerous, more responsibility needs to be applied. Little Timmy taking the steak knives to school is dangerous, but not as dangerous as taking a loaded gun.

So is that a yes or no to my question?

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Bio1590 posted...

Who on earth is keeping loaded guns in a safe and why

Irresponsible gun owners

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karlpilkington4 posted...

So is that a yes or no to my question?

From the context of my post, you should be able to deduce that I think leaving a loaded gun unattended around children is a completely different beast from a child accessing regular household knives.

the crimes their gun commits

Guns dont commit crimes. Rephrase.

NeoShadowhen posted...

the crimes their gun commits

Guns dont commit crimes. Rephrase.

"the crime committed by individuals in possession of their gun"?

Needlessly complicated but okay. The original got the point across well enough.


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nemu posted...

From the context of my post, you should be able to deduce that I think leaving a loaded gun unattended around children is a completely different beast from a child accessing regular household knives.

I dont know why its so hard for you to answer the question and not deflect with an irrelevant point. We all know that knives arent as dangerous as guns, yet the context of this whole debate is whether you're responsible for the actions of other people who take your property and use it to harm others.

So, should Frank be responsible for Little Timmy stabbing someone with your knife? Yes, or no, why or why not?

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wackyteen posted...

Irresponsible gun owners

Or people that acknowledge the disadvantage of an unloaded defensive pistol and are smart enough to keep the safe it's in locked at all times when they're not in direct manipulation of its contents.

There's a reason why irresponsible gun owners make news, and not the ones that keep their shit properly locked and secured.

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karlpilkington4 posted...

I dont know why its so hard for you to answer the question and not deflect with an irrelevant point. We all know that knives arent as dangerous as guns, yet the context of this whole debate is whether you're responsible for the actions of other people who take your property and use it to harm others.

So, should Frank be responsible for Little Timmy stabbing someone with your knife? Yes, or no, why or why not?

I'm very confused how you cannot rationalize from my posts that I do not in fact think knives bear the same care and responsibility as guns.

Malcrasternus posted...

Or people that acknowledge the disadvantage of an unloaded defensive pistol and are smart enough to keep the safe it's in locked at all times when they're not in direct manipulation of its contents.

There's a reason why irresponsible gun owners make news, and not the ones that keep their shit properly locked and secured.

all the gun ownership training I've ever heard about is generally along the lines of "don't keep your gun loaded and keep the gun and ammo separated (for maximum safety)"

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nemu posted...

I'm very confused how you cannot rationalize from my posts that I do not in fact think knives bear the same care and responsibility as guns.

Thats literally not the question.

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Malcrasternus posted...

Or people that acknowledge the disadvantage of an unloaded defensive pistol and are smart enough to keep the safe it's in locked at all times when they're not in direct manipulation of its contents.

There's a reason why irresponsible gun owners make news, and not the ones that keep their shit properly locked and secured.

Ah yes nothing screams "defensive pistol" like "Hold up, I gotta unlock this shit, open the door, and pull the gun out" to use it.
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wackyteen posted...

all the gun ownership training I've ever heard about is generally along the lines of "don't keep your gun loaded and keep the gun and ammo separated (for maximum safety)"

And the half dozen instructors ranging from civilian to police to retired military I've trained under for the past 10+ years didn't, and suggest against it for defensive pistols. I'm not arguing the stupidity of leaving a firearm unguarded. Hell I don't even open carry for the reason that it telegraphs the fact a gun is present.

Keeping a loaded pistol under a pillow or dead-ass out in the open is stupid. That same pistol inside of a locked safe poses no greater threat than the safe's own ability to be ripped from its anchor points and be used as a cudgel.

Same goes with my rifle magazines. While the rifle itself stays unloaded, all my mags are stored fully loaded.

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Bio1590 posted...

Ah yes nothing screams "defensive pistol" like "Hold up, I gotta unlock this shit, open the door, and pull the gun out" to use it.

Do you not know what rapid access/biometric safes are?

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If an investigation proves that you literally didn't even attempt to keep your loaded gun out of the hands of your children or other people that aren't yourself you deserve to be in a lot of trouble if little Billy grabs your 9 while you're at work and shoots the neighbor kid in the chest.

Now if you have a teenager or another adult and they found the key or lock combination well there is nothing you can do about that and you did take preventative measures by having it locked up so nothing you could do about it.

Stuffing your gun in a closet or in your dresser under some socks isn't taking preventive measures and you are partially to blame if little Billy goes on a killing spree with your gun.

karlpilkington4 posted...

I dont know why its so hard for you to answer the question and not deflect with an irrelevant point. We all know that knives arent as dangerous as guns, yet the context of this whole debate is whether you're responsible for the actions of other people who take your property and use it to harm others.

So, should Frank be responsible for Little Timmy stabbing someone with your knife? Yes, or no, why or why not?

Your problem is equating the context of your question with tc's question. Although, for the record, you should be held responsible if you're the kind of idiot who leaves knives within reach of children.

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This is a weird topic, man.

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