Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 276: We Hold These Truths to Be Slelf-Evident

(+) Yeah! (+)

Man, I'm starting to flip hard over the last couple days on just how awful Biden would be if he actually made it. Obviously it's better than Trump, but he's such a cowardly pushover nobody that for all intents and purposes we wouldn't even have a Democrat in office.

hard to believe that the DNC would literally rather four more years of Trump than any years of Sanders.

Same exact failed playbook from 2016 is gonna doom them again.

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MichelBollinger posted...

Man, I'm starting to flip hard over the last couple days on just how awful Biden would be if he actually made it. Obviously it's better than Trump, but he's such a cowardly pushover nobody that for all intents and purposes we wouldn't even have a Democrat in office.

He's a Good Man

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Virginia coming through for me I hope:
https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1234693241292967942?s=21

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...

I may need a drink.

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FWIW I think Sanders will hold up much better in places like CA. Him winning VA never really made sense to me and it was probably a prime place for moderates to all strategically align.

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Can't wait for Trump to smoke Biden and watch all the same people who couldn't believe it in 2016 react the same way.

Unbelievable from the DNC, truly. lmao

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If Bernie can't beat Biden he can't beat Trump anyway. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

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I want to reiterate that Warren tanked after she released how she was going to pay for her plans. Bernie seems to be doing the same. Even pre-SC polling for the presidential nom had Sanders relatively well ahead until this week where the morning Consult and IBD have Bernie just 3 points ahead now nationally.

For reference the Consult had Sanders +12 just before he released the way to pay for things.

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red13n posted...

If Bernie can't beat Biden he can't beat Trump anyway. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

"If Bernie can't beat Biden when his own party is stalking the deck against him, then he definitely can't beat Trump when they'll be supporting him!"

False equivalence. Bernie with full DNC backing is a better candidate than Biden.

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Inviso posted...

I wish progressives cared as much about beating Trump as they do about beating the "establishment".

https://twitter.com/yousefmunayyer/status/1234438744339513344?s=21

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I dont really see how its stacking the deck against Bernie so much as it is just picking one single candidate to best face him. If he needs moderate Dems at each others throats to win, thats bad.

Its what Republicans couldnt do in 2016.
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Jakyl25 posted...

I dont really see how its stacking the deck against Bernie so much as it is just picking one single candidate to best face him. If he needs moderate Dems at each others throats to win, thats bad.

Its what Republicans couldnt do in 2016.

This is where I am at, to be honest. Hey if he can't win he can't win, people vote for who they vote for.

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KamikazePotato posted...

False equivalence. Bernie with full DNC backing is a better candidate than Biden.

Bernie has had far more resources than any of the candidates, Biden included. If he can't beat him hes not strong.

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red13n posted...

If Bernie can't beat Biden he can't beat Trump anyway. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

The dynamics of a primary and a general are completely different, and matchups between different people give different results.

Its the same as saying nobody could have beaten in Trump in 2016, and do you honestly believe that?

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red13n posted...

Bernie has had far more resources than any of the candidates, Biden included. If he can't beat him hes not strong.

Except Bloomberg...!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Its the same as saying nobody could have beaten in Trump in 2016, and do you honestly believe that?

Hillary beats him without Comey fuckery.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Except Bloomberg...!

I don't acknowledge Bloomberg unless its to trash him like the garbage he is.

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Corrik7 posted...

That's pretty normal that seats go the opposite way when the president is of the other party.

why is that, just out of curiosity?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The dynamics of a primary and a general are completely different, and matchups between different people give different results.

Its the same as saying nobody could have beaten in Trump in 2016, and do you honestly believe that?

Im skeptical that Bernie could have. A non-term limited Obama could have, sure.

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red13n posted...

Bernie has had far more resources than any of the candidates, Biden included. If he can't beat him hes not strong.

My one caveat on this would be if he comfortably beats Biden in the Rust Belt but Biden cleans up in Red States, that would be a bad form of strength for Biden
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red13n posted...

Bernie has had far more resources than any of the candidates, Biden included. If he can't beat him hes not strong.

This isn't true when you factor in super pacs btw. Not pro biden per se, but anti-bernie ones.

Let's not pretend like the donor class has limits to their resources.

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red13n posted...

Bernie has had far more resources than any of the candidates, Biden included. If he can't beat him hes not strong.

???

Bernie is the only person in this campaign WITHOUT access to big money backers. The fact that he has as much money as he does to throw around comes entirely from grassroots donations, which should be counted as a MAJOR point of favor in his popular, not one against. If the other candidates can't get the people, the actual voters, to donate for them, then that's their problem.

That's not even taking into consideration the media being strongly against him, establishment democrats being strongly against him, and basically every X-factor in the book being against him. The levels of standards you people have for someone working without the benefits of the inherent system are absurd.

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red13n posted...

Hillary beats him without Comey fuckery.

Ok so were there other candidates not subject to Comey fuckery?

Like this is such a 1 to 1 recreation of 2016 its absurd.

Its been reported the Republicans are literally drafting subpoenas for Biden and Ukraine as we speak. Even if Biden is 100% innocent, do you really trust Trump to not pressure his Justice Department or FBI Director to make an equivalent announcement the week before the election?

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Im skeptical that Bernie could have. A non-term limited Obama could have, sure.

It so weird to me that youre so obsessed with polling, and yet seem to completely disregard every single poll that shows Bernie would have and still would beat Trump.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Virginia coming through for me I hope:
https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1234693241292967942?s=21

this is great news

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KamikazePotato posted...

Bernie is the only person in this campaign WITHOUT access to big money backers. The fact that he has as much money as he does to throw around comes entirely from grassroots donations, which should be counted as a MAJOR point of favor in his popular, not one against. If the other candidates can't get the people, the actual voters, to donate for them, then that's their problem.

I didn't say his money didnt come from good sources. But I'm just saying to act like hes at a huge disadvantage resource wise is simply not true. Biden couldn't even afford to really campaign in California for instance.

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Like let me be clear about this: a Bernie with positive news coverage and the backing of establishment Democrats, with Biden having repeated negative press coverage and no endorsement, ends in a slaughter. Let's not act like this is some fair fight.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

It so weird to me that youre so obsessed with polling, and yet seem to completely disregard every single poll that shows Bernie would have and still would beat Trump.

It's not weird to you. Let's be honest. We ALL know the score by now.

Bernie's movement was always about getting unexpected voters to vote. So either that happens or he loses. That was always the gamble Bernie was making. The polls won't reflect that, only actual turn out will. If it isn't there, then it isn't there. We can be annoyed at the dnc all we want, but at the end of the day voters vote.

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red13n posted...

I didn't say his money didnt come from good sources. But I'm just saying to act like hes at a huge disadvantage resource wise is simply not true. Biden couldn't even afford to really campaign in California for instance.

This has more to do with Biden's horrendous running of his own campaign. He started with significantly more resources and potential and squandered (and/or failed to materialize more) it all. Great guy to support for the general!

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

It's not weird to you. Let's be honest. We ALL know the score by now.

Bernie's movement was always about getting unexpected voters to vote. So either that happens or he loses. That was always the gamble Bernie was making. The polls won't reflect that, only actual turn out will. If it isn't there, then it isn't there. We can be annoyed at the dnc all we want, but at the end of the day voters vote.

This is the opposite of what Im saying.

Even without the unpolled young-voters, Bernies polls show him beating Trump.

If this unpolled voters show up, he just blows him out.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Its been reported the Republicans are literally drafting subpoenas for Biden and Ukraine as we speak. Even if Biden is 100% innocent, do you really trust Trump to not pressure his Justice Department or FBI Director to make an equivalent announcement the week before the election?

Your going to have to factor in all the instant loss of voters because people fear the socialist tag if you are going to start making lengthy arguments like this.

Keep in mind neither one of these two candidates were my ideal choice but I seem stuck with them.

Luckily I still have a goal of help sink Bloomberg to 4th place tomorrow.

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I meant in the Primary, Tony.

Got to win the primary. No real BS has gone on. Everything that has happened so far is easily predictable and I am sure Bernie expected it would. If he can't beat Biden 1 on 1, well, there it is. Unfortunately.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Like let me be clear about this: a Bernie with positive news coverage and the backing of establishment Democrats

Bernie with the backing of establishment Democrats kind of isnt Bernie though
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Jakyl25 posted...

Bernie with the backing of establishment Democrats kind of isnt Bernie though

On that note to trash Bloomberg, we haven't really heard anything of him putting his resources to any of the campaigns. He offered to Bernie only because he knew he'd refuse, tbh.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Bernie with the backing of establishment Democrats kind of isnt Bernie though

Monetary backing, yes, but I was referring to social backing, which is just as important if not moreso. If all the people that had endorsed Biden today endorsed Bernie, him and his fanbase would have been very happy about it. The progressive movement isn't about excluding people who would join to fight for the rights of others.


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DoomTheGyarados posted...

...

I may need a drink.

I'm right there with you! I have a nice beer picked out for tomorrow because I'm just expecting worst case scenario now.

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KamikazePotato posted...

The progressive movement isn't about excluding people who would join to fight for the rights of others.

You wouldn't know that from the last week or so.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I'm right there with you! I have a nice beer picked out for tomorrow because I'm just expecting worst case scenario now.

My Fiance asked me to pick a European country lol

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Isn't Europe all moving far right?

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red13n posted...

Isn't Europe all moving far right?

Nah there are a few nice ones.

Plus I mean, health care lol

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well i for one am glad we can finally agree that primaries are different than general elections.
i mean it's what the justice dems operate under too but glad to see the acknowledgement of it in this topic too!

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red13n posted...

You wouldn't know that from the last week or so.

Yeah, it's a real shame that Bernie's fanbase has rejected all those establishment media outlets and democrats that have started embracing aspects of the progressive movement. I'll list them here:

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KamikazePotato posted...

If all the people that had endorsed Biden today endorsed Bernie, him and his fanbase would have been very happy about it. The progressive movement isn't about excluding people who would join to fight for the rights of others.

It wouldnt make any ideological sense for any of those people to endorse Bernie though.

Theyre Democrats. They believe in Democratic Party ideals as they currently are. Bernie is an outsider from a party that doesnt currently exist in America using the Democratic Party to achieve campaign legitimacy.

Like, there does not exist a world where Amy Klobuchar endorses Bernie Sanders over Joe Biden
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

This is where I am at, to be honest. Hey if he can't win he can't win, people vote for who they vote for.

Yeah also this. Lanes converging like this SHOULD be what happens. Sanders losing to this isn't what I would be consider rigging, just people not voting the person who I want them to vote for.

Doesn't mean I'm not going to be grumpy about it though!

(I realize how pessimistic this all sounds since we don't even have votes in yet but I'm preemptively disappointed about tomorrow.)

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KamikazePotato posted...

Yeah, it's a real shame that Bernie's fanbase has rejected all those establishment media outlets and democrats that have started embracing aspects of the progressive movement. I'll list them here:

They've literally been spending the week trashing Warren and saying shes dead to them. She is literally the progressive movements most prominent and powerful ally aside Bernie.

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Remember though, house primaries matter. Senate matters. State houses matter. Lots of good can come even if Biden is President as a progressive.

If trump is President.

Not gonna lie, I am peacing out <_<

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Jakyl25 posted...

It wouldnt make any ideological sense for any of those people to endorse Bernie though.

Congrats, you're looking at the person who was dumb enough (until recently) to think that the DNC actually fought for the people

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

...

I may need a drink.

30-50% of votes were already cast before this weekend and Bernie, being the frontrunner and most popular candidate, is just as likely to benefit from people dropping out as anyone else (except if Bloomberg dropped out, those voters would def break for Biden). Also the source is pretty suspect.

still be worried but not like super worried

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europe isn't moving far right for the most part, though some who are far left are creating some notable shifts back over to the center.
more than right or left it's nationalism. goes for the UK, goes for France.

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