Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 281: Wuhan Flu to the Polls

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dems should be very scared that the market is tanking now. The media-driven hysteria over coronavirus is peaking about 4 months too early. The last thing Biden needs is a booming recovery this summer/fall.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No shit. The problem here is that the Trump administration's actions and spokespeople have very consistently argued against holding the President accountable in any meaningful way. That's the authoritarian part.

Because the President is not accountable to those seeking to hold him accountable. Accountable means that he has the power to do what he wants and others can punish him for it after the fact. In that sense, he's accountable to Congress to a limited degree through impeachment and he is accountable to the next Electoral College. That's it.

The President's power can be limited through other means than holding him accountable. Such as not granting him the power to do XYZ in the first place.

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red sox 777 posted...

The President's power can be limited through other means than holding him accountable. Such as not granting him the power to do XYZ in the first place.

This should be obvious but if there is no mechanism for accountability than the President can essentially exercise any power regardless of it it has been granted

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Also I know most of this topic has redsox blocked, but you guys (particularly the Biden = Trump crew) could really learn a lot by at least reading his posts. I guess most people have written him off as a troll making strawman arguments, but when he is not doing that he is very much in line with a lot of the mainstream Republican schools of thought on government.

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Biden = Trump is a really, really dumb take.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also I know most of this topic has redsox blocked, but you guys (particularly the Biden = Trump crew) could really learn a lot by at least reading his posts. I guess most people have written him off as a troll making strawman arguments, but when he is not doing that he is very much in line with a lot of the mainstream Republican schools of thought on government.

"When not trolling, he's a typical republican" isn't exactly a glowing endorsement

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HashtagSEP posted...

"When not trolling, he's a typical republican" isn't exactly a glowing endorsement

He could have said I was a Democrat. Now that would be an insult!

Stop using alts to try to get around ignore lists

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HashtagSEP posted...

Stop using alts to try to get around ignore lists

Take that up with GameFAQs. I been arguing for the removal of alts for years.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Stop using alts to try to get around ignore lists

I have one account logged in on my phone and another on my computer. But as you may or may not know, I literally didn't have an alt for 15+ years, which is why this account has 5800 karma.

And there was no need for an alt until some people decided to block me and make topics. I had to create an account to post in some of these topics.

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People who block any users should not be allowed to make these topics. It's very Stalinist.

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Corrik7 posted...

It is literally in quotes above that you chose to not add to your quote of my post??? Lol.

Im talking about some here doing it.

TheRock1525 posted...

I think you all are beginning to realize that American voters are pretty dumb.

Uh, Ive been saying thistheyve been manipulated into think Joe Biden is a good candidate.

TheRock1525 posted...

"Your taxes will go up" is an incredibly hard sell for the working middle class vote you need to win back Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. He literally says "if we can do it without raising taxes on the middle class, he'd agree to it" which is flat out good optics for a general election. That's why he's not only winning now, but absolutely stomping. Because he actually plays the political game smarter than you think. When you openly admit that taxes will go up, you scare away voters.

Oh so hes a piece of shit? Lol thanks.

The entire point is that taxes go up WAY LESS than people save on healthcare.

Its a net gain. Playing politics by spiking the ball on a passed bill because taxes is immoral. Additionally, he even hints at his true thoughts about Social Security, is cutting that good politics?

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HashtagSEP posted...

"When not trolling, he's a typical republican" isn't exactly a glowing endorsement

It's not an endorsement to engage, it's just so people can understand how actual Republican-style conservatism goes and not unironically think Pete Buttigieig is a Republican outside of memes

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Im talking about some here doing it.

Uh, Ive been saying thistheyve been manipulated into think Joe Biden is a good candidate.

Oh so hes a piece of shit? Lol thanks.

The entire point is that taxes go up WAY LESS than people save on healthcare.

Its a net gain. Playing politics by spiking the ball on a passed bill because taxes is immoral. Additionally, he even hints at his true thoughts about Social Security, is cutting that good politics?

It's not the same though. If you cut my taxes, I get extra money in the bank. I can do whatever I want with that money. I can invest it, save it, feast on caviar, take vacations, blow it all on alcohol and gambling, give it to friends and family, etc. I could use it to pay for health insurance - but I might not want to. Maybe I don't buy health insurance and do one or more of the above instead. If the savings only come through health insurance - maybe those aren't savings for me because I wasn't going to buy health insurance in the first place.

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red sox 777 posted...

It's not the same though. If you cut my taxes, I get extra money in the bank. I can do whatever I want with that money. I can invest it, save it, feast on caviar, take vacations, blow it all on alcohol and gambling, give it to friends and family, etc. I could use it to pay for health insurance - but I might not want to. Maybe I don't buy health insurance and do one or more of the above instead. If the savings only come through health insurance - maybe those aren't savings for me because I wasn't going to buy health insurance in the first place.

Saying Medicare for all is a net gain anyways is not true for all and honestly something we wouldn't know just how many it wasn't true for until it ever happened

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

It's not an endorsement to engage, it's just so people can understand how actual Republican-style conservatism goes and not unironically think Pete Buttigieig is a Republican outside of memes

Although I say this but it's actually probably more effective to learn conservatism by leaving him blocked and reading some articles on it so eh

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I think anybody that unironically thinks Pete's a republican isn't interested in actually knowing, anyway.

That said, I'm certainly not advocating to block red sox. He absolutely has a right to post in these topics.

We just all have a very lovely right to not have to read said posts.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also I know most of this topic has redsox blocked, but you guys (particularly the Biden = Trump crew) could really learn a lot by at least reading his posts. I guess most people have written him off as a troll making strawman arguments, but when he is not doing that he is very much in line with a lot of the mainstream Republican schools of thought on government.

Most people have him blocked because he has no interest in engaging in good faith discussions. Not coincidentally, many Republicans aren't interested in engaging in good faith discussions.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Although I say this but it's actually probably more effective to learn conservatism by leaving him blocked and reading some articles on it so eh

It's better to look at original source materials like Supreme Court opinions than articles, because articles are very hit or miss, especially when written by people with no understanding of what's actually going on (like most "moderate" Republican apologists).

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Dancedreamer posted...

Most people have him blocked because he has no interest in engaging in good faith discussions. Not coincidentally, many Republicans aren't interested in engaging in good faith discussions.

Actually, this is flatly wrong. I am tremendously interested in good faith discussions. That's why I call out people who aren't interested in them by aggressively highlighting the contradictions in their positions. To hopefully show people that an echo chamber of liberals agreeing with each other is not a good faith discussion. That's more of a cult.

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red sox 777 is my favorite political poster. Never change, red sox

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The entire point is that taxes go up WAY LESS than people save on healthcare.

There are multiple studies showing various results on M4A, some in Bernie's favor and some against him. Its absolutely not as cut and dry as you think.

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https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/next-democratic-debate-to-feature-hot-questions-and-even-hotter-wings/

God I wish

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TheRock1525 posted...

There are multiple studies showing various results on M4A, some in Bernie's favor and some against him. Its absolutely not as cut and dry as you think.

Actually this is not true. You can think what you want about M4A in general but in terms of saving for people who make less than 100,000 the math is out.

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TheRock1525 posted...

There are multiple studies showing various results on M4A, some in Bernie's favor and some against him. Its absolutely not as cut and dry as you think.

Id recommend John Olivers bit on it:

https://youtu.be/7Z2XRg3dy9k

Bernies point, which he has made repeatedly and consistently, is that every other developed nation Earth pays less per capita on healthcare than usand they get healthcare.

There is really no argument that we cant do better, and if youre first inclination for both houses passed M4A will you sign it is not if it raises taxes, then Im not on your team, sorry,

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Really I get the argument of "well it won't pass" which isn't an indictment of health care but our political system, and which hey okay I guess you're right but at this point it is really obvious that M4A is a great idea and also would avoid things like the Coronavirus being out of control.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Actually this is not true. You can think what you want about M4A in general but in terms of saving for people who make less than 100,000 the math is out.

lmao the math is not "out" on anything - it's all theoretical

look at the cost projections of social security in 1932 vs what they actually were

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

would avoid things like the Coronavirus being out of control.

Not seeing this part of your post. Controlling diseases coming primarily from outside the country seems unrelated.

Not to mention projections fell short on the ACA and it cost more than expected, plus premiums rose instead of falling.

I'll agree with the moral imperative to guarantee everyone health care, but the cost is too easily handwaved by people.

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

lmao the math is not "out" on anything - it's all theoretical

look at the cost projections of social security in 1932 vs what they actually were

Honestly it should be called a Roosevelt scheme rather than a Ponzi scheme.

Leafeon13N posted...

Not seeing this part of your post. Controlling diseases coming primarily from outside the country seems unrelated.

Because when health care is free people go get tested in an orderly fashion, are more easily told the precautions, and spreads are lessened. I am not saying it wouldn't come, but an example of how this helps is South Korea where everything is very organized. You minimize spread, panic, etc. Instead people are charged 3000 to get tested for Coronavirus early on which is a bit of a joke.

TheRock1525 posted...

Not to mention projections fell short on the ACA and it cost more than expected, plus premiums rose instead of falling.

I'll agree with the moral imperative to guarantee everyone health care, but the cost is too easily handwaved by people.

The reasons for this have been laid out though: the reason why premiums rose is because the insurance industry is a bunch of ghouls. Like, it isn't just ??? that happened, we know the reasons. Effectively there is no way that health care can cost us more now because if we pay the exact same but get rid of the middle man of insurance we have the total cost of care right now minus the middle man. That's why the cost of M4A being AT MOST what it currently costs makes the most sense. There's nowhere for prices to go up. There's a reason we pay a stupid amount compared to everyone else.

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Reg posted...

Biden = Trump is a really, really dumb take.

Yeah, Bloomberg is the one who's Trump. (Although there would still be reasons to vote for Bloomberg over Trump in the general, like supreme court picks, and he'd probably have a better administration, and probably not break laws about asking foreign governments to interfere in elections).

Biden is just senile. If there's a Republican to compare him to, it's like...second term Reagan, not Trump.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Because when health care is free people go get tested in an orderly fashion, are more easily told the precautions, and spreads are lessened. I am not saying it wouldn't come, but an example of how this helps is South Korea where everything is very organized. You minimize spread, panic, etc. Instead people are charged 3000 to get tested for Coronavirus early on which is a bit of a joke.

Again, this seems a stretch. Medicare doesn't mean everything you ask for is going to be covered or available. I assume everyone at the primary outbreak site where the elderly are all dying most have Medicare or better.

Also the south Korea outbreak was horrible that is not exactly a great example.

I mean, their testing was good but any scenario is going to involve our government investing in the tests... Which, we are already capable of doing on the cheap.

Our problem is our government didn't want to recognize coronavirus cases in the first place.

Leafeon13N posted...

Again, this seems a stretch. Medicare doesn't mean everything you ask for is going to be covered or available. I assume everyone at the primary outbreak site where the elderly are all dying most have Medicare or better.

Also the south Korea outbreak was horrible that is not exactly a great example.

I mean elderly dying is just always going to happen. It's not a stretch at all, it's just how health care works Red.

Also South Korea has had 7500 cases and only 58 deaths. That is something to aspire to in terms of preventing bad outcomes.

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@Reg
Just voted for Bernie

Was voter number 131 at my precinct at 3:30 PM

So you can see why theres not a line
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also South Korea has had 7500 cases and only 58 deaths. That is something to aspire to in terms of preventing bad outcomes

Again, good for treatment but doesn't prevent it from getting out of control(it was very much out of control in s Korea for a time).

Our government is already capable of keeping coronavirus from going nuts they are just choosing not to(pretty sure with a national emergency they could test whoever they want).

Jakyl25 posted...

@Reg
Just voted for Bernie

Was voter number 131 at my precinct at 3:30 PM

So you can see why theres not a line

What the fuck

Good on you for the vote but what the fuck that's a pathetic number

To reiterate how inept they are, the prior mentioned elderly facility just got everyone tested within the last 48 hours.

Reg posted...

What the fuck

Good on you for the vote but what the fuck that's a pathetic number

Depends where he is/how big said precinct is

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We have an advantage of not being an intensely urbanized country.

Its weird because I have to drive past another precinct polling place to get to mine, because its on the other side of the road which is the dividing line, and it always seems more crowded
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Reg posted...

What the fuck

Good on you for the vote but what the fuck that's a pathetic number

For reference, last time I actually saw what voter number I was at my precinct, I was #71 when I voted at like 9 AM. This was in May 2019 (May elections in an off year) when the only things up for vote were municipal things.

HashtagSEP posted...

Depends where he is/how big said precinct is

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belleville,_Michigan

Birthplace of techno music!
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Wanglicious posted...

yeah, the phrase "dishonest Republican talking point" is disingenuous. a talking point doesn't have a party - it's an idea or phrase.

seems like this is just a semantic argument. people should say "dishonest talking point that's usually utilized by republicans" to be correct.

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Wow, just noticed that Hickenlooper lost the CO Senate primary

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Wow, just noticed that Hickenlooper lost the CO Senate primary

Wonderful, hopefully the Republican Party can hold that seat!

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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1237334397172490240

trump's plan for stopping a global pandemic: building the wall.

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Viruses cant climb walls
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1237368448533004288

good to know that after concern trolling for awhile, trump is back to calling bernie "crazy bernie" again.

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