Current Events > In the revenge of the sith opening crawl....

(+) Yeah! (+)

It says "there are heroes on both sides"

Wtf does this mean?
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"Hero" is a matter of perspective.

General Grievous is as much of a hero for the separatists as the jedi are for the Republic.

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b o t h s i d e s
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War!

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au_gold posted...

War!

GODAMNIT, Netflix always lettin me down these days.

Rush Hour is gone, just when I finally decide on something to watch...

*sigh*

Bad Boys II it is.

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A military hero is still a military hero by definition, regardless of ones alignment. I'm sure there were Nazi heroes that even we knew about at the time, but history is penned by the Victor and thus their names have been forgotten over time

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dib153 posted...

Nazi heroes

lmao

Reis posted...

b o t h s i d e s
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Very fine droids
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The common Separatist doesn't know that they are pawns of the Sith to take over the galaxy. Many would consider Count Dooku a hero since the common person doesn't know he's a Sith Lord. He had the courage to stand up to the corrupt Republic, and try to create a better form of government for his Separatist constituents.

That being said, that is a weird line to just throw in the opening crawl especially since you don't see anything except the Separatists being the bad guys in the movie.

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Master_Bass posted...

The common Separatist doesn't know that they are pawns of the Sith to take over the galaxy. Many would consider Count Dooku a hero since the common person doesn't know he's a Sith Lord. He had the courage to stand up to the corrupt Republic, and try to create a better form of government for his Separatist constituents.

That being said, that is a weird line to just throw in the opening crawl especially since you don't see anything except the Separatists being the bad guys in the movie.

Yeah the Clone Wars cartoon showed this quite a bit

There were 3 sides. The Seperatists were trying to fight for freedom from the Republic. The Republic itself was a shit show.

And Palpatine was the third side that pitted both against each other to take over all of it.

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In the Clone Wars show it goes into detail that not all separatists are evil, even though Greivous, Dooku, and Nute Gunray clearly are. Remember that Palpatine represents the Republic and he's the most evil sith in the galaxy.

It's strange because the original trilogy and the prequels seem to focus on key players that rely on the light side of the force, presenting them as the "good guys".

The Clone Wars and the Skywalker Trilogy plays around more with force neutrality and giving dimension to those that use the dark side of the force.

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Wii_Shaker posted...

Skywalker Trilogy

Which one

I don't conceptually mind the concept of the line, but if you're gonna use it you need to show the seperatists having a magnificent bastard of Rommel proportions rather than a stupid cgi robot with lung cancer.
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Hairistotle posted...

THERE ARE HEROES ON BOTH SIDES

star wars fan: you see, there are actually three sides

The Sith were seperate from the Republic and Seperatists and the war going on wasn't against the Sith, but I don't expect you of all people to understand stuff like that lol.

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archedsoul posted...

There were 3 sides. The Seperatists were trying to fight for freedom from the Republic. The Republic itself was a shit show.

And Palpatine was the third side that pitted both against each other to take over all of it.

But then it would say "heroes on 2 sides and an asshole doing his own thing in the background"
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When the CIS sends its droids, it's not sending its best. They're sending droids that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing treason. They're bringing war. They're separatists. And some, I assume, are good droids.
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sLaCkEr408___RJ posted...

Which one

Disney

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Hairistotle posted...

but like, that's a stupid line to say even in that context. imagine this:

WWII movie : There are heroes on both sides.

like there's just no reason to say it because there's no way we or anyone in the movie thinks there are heroes on both sides

But its not about us. Its about them. You can't deny that there are inevitably going to be a few noteworthy enemies that their peers would consider to be heroic to their cause and goals. Just because their not our hero doesnt mean they aren't somebody's hero

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Hairistotle posted...

oh it is not an issue of misunderstanding i assure you

Alright cool. Now shut up.

lilORANG posted...

But then it would say "heroes on 2 sides and an asshole doing his own thing in the background"

Lol. I think they implied the Sith were controlling things on both ends by saying "The ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku" and later talking about Palpatine as just the Chancellor.

But yeah, the opening wasn't really super clear till Clone Wars. There's an episode even titled that.

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Hairistotle posted...

but like, that's a stupid line to say even in that context. imagine this:

WWII movie : There are heroes on both sides.

like there's just no reason to say it because there's no way we or anyone in the movie thinks there are heroes on both sides

The analogy works better if it was compared to the American Civil War rather than WWII.

Like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson are heroes in the South.

lilORANG posted...

But then it would say "heroes on 2 sides and an asshole doing his own thing in the background"

The statement that comes after the both sides one, "Evil is everywhere", is supposed to foreshadow Sheev's part I believe.

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dib153 posted...

A military hero is still a military hero by definition, regardless of ones alignment. I'm sure there were Nazi heroes that even we knew about at the time, but history is penned by the Victor and thus their names have been forgotten over time

https://www.timesofisrael.com/nazi-official-who-risked-life-to-save-hundreds-of-jews-posthumously-recognized/

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There are heroes on both sides: Heroic efforts are being put forth on both sides of opposition.
Evil is everywhere: There is evil on both sides.

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So during the famous high ground scene, anakin says "you underestimate my power" and obi replied "don't try it"

But what's the alternative, obi-wan? Just continue to stand on the lava platform?
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I can come up with several alternatives to trying to flippy jump over his enemy's head.

The dead speak!

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Tenlaar posted...

I can come up with several alternatives to trying to flippy jump over his enemies head.

Well obi didn't know he was going to do that. He was just telling him not to continue on

And Padme's final words are "I know there's still good in him" but isn't everyone under there impression he's dead now anyways? And even if Obi didn't go into detail about scorching Anakin's ass, she knew what obi came there to do...
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lilORANG posted...

Well obi didn't know he was going to do that. He was just telling him not to continue on

And Padme's final words are "I know there's still good in him" but isn't everyone under there impression he's dead now anyways? And even if Obi didn't go into detail about scorching Anakin's ass, she knew what obi came there to do...

Dude she was unconscious for the whole thing. She was still under the impression he was alive.

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Padme was super optimistic about Anakin, and not just in that scene.

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SmidgeIsntBack posted...

Padme was super optimistic about Anakin, and not just in that scene.

Then she is lost
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K. Dumb opening crawl aside, this is still the best SW movie.
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lilORANG posted...

So during the famous high ground scene, anakin says "you underestimate my power" and obi replied "don't try it"

But what's the alternative, obi-wan? Just continue to stand on the lava platform?

Obi-Wan was known for his adaptability in battle. Anakin was known for making rash, uncalculated decisions.

Anakin's judgement was clouded by rage and Obi-Wan knew all of his moves. The alternative would be to submit to logic and realize that he was being played by Palpatine but that wasn't going to happen. We all know what happens next.

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In the prequal trilogy and extended canon (Even more so it's owned by Disney) the conflict is much more gray.

In the original simple trilogy it was just "Rebels good - Empire evil!"

Now in the 21st century people want more complexity than that

Things that used to be jokes like the Rebels massacring billions of innocent people and average Joe Q worker not caring who was in charge so long as it didnt effect them and the Jedi council being fucking useless are actual plot points.

Especially the Separatists in the prequels. The people who are going "The council is evil, we want our own freedoms." can very very easily be heroic. Qui-Gon Jinn would have likely joined them if he was still alive.

Remeber this was an entire threat Palpatine set up just so he could destroy it and make his Empire

Its much more of a political conflict rather than pure good or evil.

Like look at America right now. Would you say they are "The Good Guys?" yes? No? Is that too complicated a question for a one word answer? The Empire/Separatists/Rebels are much the same.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

In the prequal trilogy and extended canon (Even more so it's owned by Disney) the conflict is much more gray.

In the original simple trilogy it was just "Rebels good - Empire evil!"

Now in the 21st century people want more complexity than that

Things that used to be jokes like the Rebels massacring billions of innocent people and average Joe Q worker not caring who was in charge so long as it didnt effect them and the Jedi council being fucking useless are actual plot points.

Especially the Separatists in the prequels. The people who are going "The council is evil, we want our own freedoms." can very very easily be heroic. Qui-Gon Jinn would have likely joined them if he was still alive.

Remeber this was an entire threat Palpatine set up just so he could destroy it and make his Empire

Its much more of a political conflict rather than pure good or evil.

Like look at America right now. Would you say they are "The Good Guys?" yes? No? Is that too complicated a question for a one word answer? The Empire/Separatists/Rebels are much the same.

Brah I get that. But in the crawl itself the 2 biggest separatist figures are name dropped and referred to as evil. The movie isn't even trying to pretend it's ambiguous.
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Padme was completely blind. She knew all the shit that Obi Wan told her was true but she went into hardcore denial. If Obi Wan didn't show up, she probably would have given in to Anakin.

Shit, she kind of looked turned on in the "and the women and the children" scene from AotC.

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archedsoul posted...

Padme was completely blind. She knew all the shit that Obi Wan told her was true but she went into hardcore denial. If Obi Wan didn't show up, she probably would have given in to Anakin.

Shit, she kind of looked turned on in the "and the women and the children" scene from AotC.

She had plenty of chances to leave him but the movies don't go into whether she was scared to leave him or not. I imagine not, seeing as how she was so brave and headstrong as a senator.

It seemed like she was still devoted even after he force choked her. I'm not exactly clear on whether Anakin's attack killed Padme or if she simply died from childbirth. I feel that Anakin would have killed her if Obi-Wan didn't intervene and there would be no Luke or Leah. That would have played into Palpatines plans all the same.

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LordFarquad1312 posted...

"Hero" is a matter of perspective.

General Grievous is as much of a hero for the separatists as the jedi are for the Republic.

Who exactly are the Separatists? We don't see a planet of people rooting for this droid army

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archedsoul posted...

Shit, she kind of looked turned on in the "and the women and the children" scene from AotC.

Thank you for reminding me of the stark contrast in her reactions to Anakin killing Tusken children and Jedi children.

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au_gold posted...

War!

The dead speak!

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lilORANG posted...

Brah I get that. But in the crawl itself the 2 biggest separatist figures are name dropped and referred to as evil. The movie isn't even trying to pretend it's ambiguous.

So if you consider Trump and Mitch McConnell to be evil does that mean America is?
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dib153 posted...

A military hero is still a military hero by definition, regardless of ones alignment. I'm sure there were Nazi heroes that even we knew about at the time, but history is penned by the Victor and thus their names have been forgotten over time

SmidgeIsntBack posted...

Thank you for reminding me of the stark contrast in her reactions to Anakin killing Tusken children and Jedi children.

The Tusken people imprisoned and brutally abused his mother. The Jedi younglings weren't guilty of anything but being adorable.

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Wii_Shaker posted...

The Tusken people imprisoned and brutally abused his mother. The Jedi younglings weren't guilty of anything but being adorable.

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lilORANG posted...

So during the famous high ground scene, anakin says "you underestimate my power" and obi replied "don't try it"

But what's the alternative, obi-wan? Just continue to stand on the lava platform?

Obi-Wan was trying to convince him to surrender.

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