Current Events > The internet archives deserve the lawsuit they're facing.

(+) Yeah! (+)

They were doing an amazing thing, then they pushed it further into actual piracy. It blows my mind that people are actually blaming authors for being greedy over it.

Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

fuck Chuck Wendig

Chuck Wendig isn't the cause of this and did nothing wrong.

Shut the fuck up TC

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NeonOctopus posted...

Shut the fuck up TC

Why? They were illegally hosting tons of books they had absolutely no permission to use, with no limits on who gets it. It's literal piracy. They comply with takedown notices, but thay just shows they know what they're doing isn't OK, and it's taking money out of the pockets of authors that already struggle to make a living.

shockthemonkey posted...

What happened?

Basically, they announced an "emergency library" where you can go in, find copies of thousands of books that appear to be illegitimate scans, and download with no restrictions. The authors get absolutely nothing from it.

shockthemonkey posted...

Anyone have a counter argument to TC? I dont feel like doing any actual research right now but that sounds pretty shitty.

They don't. It's people reacting to feelings but ignoring the actual facts.

shockthemonkey posted...

Anyone have a counter argument to TC?

the counter argument is that it is the same function as a regular physical library, expanded for the modern era especially in recent months where people can't actually go to libraries since thy're mostly closed. alternatively, the counter argument is that they're providing a valuable preservation service for a large amount of data, some of which may be very culturally important

TC isn't really misrepresenting anything, this is what they are doing, the question is just whether you consider that a bad thing or not


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RadiantAdolin posted...

They were doing an amazing thing, then they pushed it further into actual piracy. It blows my mind that people are actually blaming authors for being greedy over it.

Imagine being a corporate bootlicker to this degree. Just try to imagine being that sad.

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Fuck, they cancelled it early. Would've loved to get some manga while it was still going >_>

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kirbymuncher posted...

the counter argument is that it is the same function as a regular physical library, expanded for the modern era especially in recent months where people can't actually go to libraries since thy're mostly closed. alternatively, the counter argument is that they're providing a valuable preservation service for a large amount of data, some of which may be very culturally important

TC isn't really misrepresenting anything, this is what they are doing, the question is just whether you consider that a bad thing or not

Except it's not like an actual library. For instance, my library also offers ebooks, as many libraries do. But those ebooks are from an official source, not illegitimate scans, and they still have a lending limit. They aren't reproducing content limitlessly. That's where the real problem is.

Also worth nothing there are TONS of authors taking issue with it, from big names to Neil Gaiman to small but well respected ones like N.K. Jemisen, all of whom actively support actual libraries.

Vyrulisse posted...

Imagine being a corporate bootlicker to this degree. Just try to imagine being that sad.

If anything, I'm bootlicking for individual authors who aren't rich by any stretch of the imagination, and who are actively losing money off what IA is doing.

I agree with the title but them shutting down would be one of the biggest travesties of the Internet and general preservation. Hopefully if it comes to that then a resourceful community can find a way to store 40 petabytes worth of data elsewhere.

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SmidgeIsntBack posted...

I agree with the title but them shutting down would be one of the biggest travesties of the Internet and general preservation. Hopefully if it comes to that then a resourceful community can find a way to store 40 petabytes worth of data elsewhere.

I agree, I don't want them shit down. I just feel that if it does happen, the blame should be on the people that instituted a policy they knew would hurt authors and put them in danger.

RadiantAdolin posted...

But those ebooks are from an official source, not illegitimate scans, and they still have a lending limit. They aren't reproducing content limitlessly. That's where the real problem is.

the internet archive is an actual registered library, and it's not like their book copies are stolen from anyone... they're actual books that were bought by or donated to the project of having an online library.

also they've said the lending limits are only taken down temporary because of the virus. which I personally think is reasonable. though I imagine some people may be worried that they will be reluctant to put the limits back in place afterward

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kirbymuncher posted...

the internet archive is an actual registered library, and it's not like their book copies are stolen from anyone... they're actual books that were bought by or donated to the project of having an online library.

also they've said the lending limits are only taken down temporary because of the virus. which I personally think is reasonable. though I imagine some people may be worried that they will be reluctant to put the limits back in place afterward

But there was zero need to make them unlimited, and it caused a lot of authors to lose money because it was literal piracy. And while the books may have been bought legitimately, they were not given legitimate permission to scan and lend them. Publishers prior were happy to ignore it because while what they were doing was technically illegal, it was harmless and for a good cause. But IA changed that and made it into something actually harmful.

Preservation is paramount, never should we have to fear of zero copies of anything in this digital age.

If piracy is how it happens, so be it.
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Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

Preservation is paramount, never should we have to fear of zero copies of anything in this digital age.

If piracy is how it happens, so be it.

They aren't preserving anything that's at any risk of loss, though. They're "preserving" books with ready availability, so all they're adding to it is piracy. There is no upside for what they've been doing except for the people pirating through them.

RadiantAdolin posted...

But there was zero need to make them unlimited,

the need to make them unlimited is that they are now making up for all the countless libraries that are temporarily closed

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it's okay to pirate school textbooks though.
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kirbymuncher posted...

the need to make them unlimited is that they are now making up for all the countless libraries that are temporarily closed

Libraries that offer digital lending options with the same limits that you don't need to visit the libraries for. They could've done what they were doing the same as always, there was zero need to make it unlimited.

Beveren_Rabbit posted...

it's okay to pirate school textbooks though.

100%.

We need "Open Source" text books for all to use.

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KamenRiderBlade posted...

We need "Open Source" text books for all to use.

I'm gonna make a wild guess and say colleges are blocking that...

RadiantAdolin posted...

I'm gonna make a wild guess and say colleges are blocking that...

Of course, how do you think they've managed to stay so "Profitable" after all these years.

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KamenRiderBlade posted...

Of course, how do you think they've managed to stay so "Profitable" after all these years.

Honestly I'd guess the profits from that are just a drop in the bucket from other bullshit they pull :/

RadiantAdolin posted...

Honestly I'd guess the profits from that are just a drop in the bucket from other bullshit they pull :/

Textbooks generally don't change very much throughout the years with only minor updates each year.

Yet they charge an exorbitant amount for each one.

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There's literally millions of copyright-free books they can host for people for their virtual library without having to resort to unauthorized copywritten stuff. This doesn't have to be an either/or thing. They can do what they're trying to do legally.

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KamenRiderBlade posted...

Textbooks generally don't change very much throughout the years with only minor updates each year.

Yet they charge an exorbitant amount for each one.

Oh I'm aware, I think it's just one of dozens of abuses.

Librarian here...libraries all over the world have shifted their priorities and their budgets to providing more of their digital resources during these quarantines.

Piracy as it's described here under the guise of a "library" just makes it even harder for real libraries to negotiate reasonable prices and lending structures for ebooks with publishers.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

There's literally millions of copyright-free books they can host for people for their virtual library without having to resort to unauthorized copywritten stuff. This doesn't have to be an either/or thing. They can do what they're trying to do legally.

Or do what they were doing before, where everyone was fine because it wasn't actually hurting anyone.

Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

fuck Chuck Wendig

NeonOctopus posted...

Shut the fuck up TC

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Another pointless post ignoring the facts.

IP really needs to be abolished.

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TheMikh posted...

IP really needs to be abolished.

No it doesn't. If you make something you deserve to be able to control it.

shockthemonkey posted...

Anyone have a counter argument to TC?

Nope, but I couldn't care less either.

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RadiantAdolin posted...

No it doesn't. If you make something you deserve to be able to control it.

With respect to physical goods I agree wholeheartedly, but you can't control ideas.

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I'll never understand how this board is so anti-capitalism and yet so pro-copyright.

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As an author, my first impulse is to support the internet archive here. Maybe just because

Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

fuck Chuck Wendig

is a universally applicable bit of advice.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

I'll never understand how this board is so anti-capitalism and yet so pro-copyright.

Likewise, figured such advocacy was confined to the realm of art degree holders.

Pro-capitalism and anti-copyright is the necessary fastlane to technological and memetic acceleration.

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TheMikh posted...

With respect to physical goods I agree wholeheartedly, but you can't control ideas.

You can control IP though. If you write a book, you deserve to make money off it. If IP wasn't a thing it'd hurt the ability of authors to make money.

Too many people have the idea that writing is just this creative expression, but it's not when you do it for a career, it's work, and typically not well paying either :(

marthsheretoo posted...

As an author, my first impulse is to support the internet archive here. Maybe just because

is a universally applicable bit of advice.

What about Nail Gaimen or NK Jemisen?

RadiantAdolin posted...

What about Nail Gaimen or NK Jemisen?

I don't know NK Jemison but I respect Gaiman. He's on the wrong side of this issue, though.

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Pirating books is something that I have absolutely no moral qualms about.

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marthsheretoo posted...

I don't know NK Jemison but I respect Gaiman. He's on the wrong side of this issue, though.

No, he isn't. Tons of authors are against it because it actively hurts them.

COVxy posted...

Pirating books is something that I have absolutely no moral qualms about.

That just says bad things about you.

TheMikh posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

I'll never understand how this board is so anti-capitalism and yet so pro-copyright.

Likewise, figured such advocacy was confined to the realm of art degree holders.

Pro-capitalism and anti-copyright is the necessary fastlane to technological and memetic acceleration.

I'll admit, even as a staunch anti capitalist, watching how things unfold in a system without copyrights sounds fascinating to me
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RadiantAdolin posted...

No, he isn't. Tons of authors are against it because it actively hurts them.

It doesn't hurt us as much as they think it does. It makes instinctive sense to think it's hurting us and I used to believe that, but I looked into it and my conclusion was that counterintuitively, having your books available for free can boost sales.

Brandon Sanderson made Warbreaker available for free. It didn't stop anyone I know from buying a copy, and it got a bunch of people into his books. Here's his statement on the matter. I think there's a follow-up statement talking more about the success of the experiment, but I couldn't find it quickly.
https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/why-release-warbreaker-for-free-on-your-website/

Like it's scary to think that your work is just up there for free and nobody will ever pay for it again, but people like buying books. They like having them on the shelf. They like supporting authors they like. The fear is overblown.

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