Current Events > Do you frown upon people who vote third party?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dustin_The_Wind posted...

If you think Trump is so bad that he is hurting the country irreparably, why vote for anyone other than Biden?

If Trump wins we get four more years of the DNC throwing massive tantrums and the GOP quietly going "no... stop that..." while not actually doing anything because they quietly hate Trump too, but don't want to split their voter base and get a Democrat in office.

If Biden wins we get to go back to the same status quo that hasn't changed or improved anything in the last 40 years at least. Then he eventually leaves office and the American people are so sick of the DNC not accomplishing anything, they elect a Republican who promptly doesn't accomplish anything and the status quo goes on.

Actually, based on that, there's literally no point in voting because we're already ruled by a de facto oligarchy that only looks out for themselves and their wealthy benefactors. And if that's true, it's the civic duty of everyone to vote for anyone but one of the two major parties. And if that somehow doesn't effect change, start demanding a proper constitutional reform by the states.

But of course, what will inevitably happen is we'll go back to the status quo. Because much like Rome, bread and circuses.

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There is no possible way I could give less of a shit who someone votes for

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Not at all.

In my eyes the entire party system was a mistake and should have never existed. People shouldn't feel inclined to vote on a specific candidate just because they won the primaries. People should vote for who they feel would be the best for the country.

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Spoilers will always ruin 3rd parties.
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Notti posted...

It's a bit of an Enlightened Centrist thing to do.

Multiple parties ARE a good thing, IF the voting system has rules that make it a smart move.

We do not have such a voting system.

Enlightened Centrists will scream PARTISAN! TRIBALISSSSST! etc. But they're ignorant.

Voting system change first, then vote 3rd parties.

Not vote 3rd parties, before changing the voting system.

Notti posted...

Most people don't understand spoiler votes, but it is amusing they think "no one ever thought to vote 3rd party before, i am so enlightened", "why didn't we listen to Washington!" etc.

joe40001 posted...

No, we get it, but a vote only matters if you think about it as representative of a larger group.

I'm not sure people do understand spoilers. (I'm sure this vid has been posted 100 times, but lets make it 101)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

No election I've ever voted in will be off by 1 vote,

Not sure why that makes 3rd party voting smarter. You can't know for sure how close the vote will be.

If everyone does that, then the spoiler effect takes place and you get less than what you could have if both your first and second choice loses.

but if I think of my vote as representing say 5% of like minded people in the population, then it definitely matters.

... Being part of the 5% that loses means almost nothing.

The only reason we are stuck in a 2 party system is because people are resigned to a false binary that pretty much everybody agrees is ruining the country. So the people doing what they can to fight that aren't naive or ignorant.

It's not a false binary, it's a realization that splitting your vote (in the current First-Past-The-Post voting system, see video) is self sabotaging.

i want 3rd parties to thrive. They SHOULD matter.

And I want people to make that choice intelligently. (they SHOULD matter, but don't. Should vs Is)

But in the current system (let's assume a purple battleground state in the national US election) it is not a smart move.

I wouldn't even call it brave.
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Nope. Its their choice and their vote.

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It's their right to vote.

It's my right to frown.
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Notti posted...

I'm not sure people do understand spoilers. (I'm sure this vid has been posted 100 times, but lets make it 101)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

I'm confused you are explaining this to me like I'm 12. It's pretty clear what "spoiler" votes are and they derive from 2 main assumptions: 1. The votes for a 3rd party will come almost exclusively from one party. 2. In a FPtP system, it is impossible for a 3rd party to ever win.

Not sure why that makes 3rd party voting smarter. You can't know for sure how close the vote will be.

If everyone does that, then the spoiler effect takes place and you get less than what you could have if both your first and second choice loses.

No, if everyone does that then the 3rd party wins. If even a third of the people do that, the 3rd party wins.

... Being part of the 5% that loses means almost nothing.

See this is where I think we are talking on a very low level. It means a huge amount. Firstly if a 3rd party got 5% in 2016 for one it would give them millions in FEC grants for 2020, secondly if 2 parties lose 5% of the vote the next cycle people will know "1. hey it's not pointless to vote 3rd party" and "2. The two parties need to do a hell of a lot better job fighting for those centrists"

It's not a false binary, it's a realization that splitting your vote (in the current First-Past-The-Post voting system, see video) is self sabotaging.

i want 3rd parties to thrive. They SHOULD matter.

And I want people to make that choice intelligently. (they SHOULD matter, but don't. Should vs Is)

But in the current system (let's assume a purple battleground state in the national US election) it is not a smart move.

I wouldn't even call it brave.

It's not self-sabotaging, it uses your vote to most effectively communicate. The only reason you believe that it's pointless is because of the narrative people push that it's pointless. You are promoting a self-fulfilling cynicism as wisdom. When it simply isn't. Turtle and Owl never needed to switch, they could've unified, they could've done a lot. It is the "throw your vote away" lie that entrenches the 2 party system. A system a HUGE majority are unhappy with.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx

If we didn't buy into the lie and just looked at Hillary and Trump and say "nope" and voted "anybody but Hillary or trump" by percentage that would win by a landslide. You claim to hate the 2 party system but you are promoting it's favorite lie. That "you don't have a choice". But any vote sends a message, and in a country where the approval of the government never hits 50% and can hit as low as 15% or worse, it is insanely clear that the majority are quite dissatisfied. It is factually untrue that a majority can't win in a democracy.

Let's approach the question from a different angle: Let's assume literally what happened in the Simpsons happened. 2 Aliens came in, hell bent on taking over and oppressing humanity, they replaced the 2 candidates leading the 2 party system. They were the nominees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7NeRiNefO0

Who would you vote for? I'm asking sincerely. Because if your answer is anything but Kang or Kodos, you acknowledge that in dire enough circumstances 3rd partying voting is valid, and that in dire enough circumstances 3rd party voting is the only responsible thing to do.

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The last time I voted for a democrat or republican was 2004. I live in Illinois, so my vote doesnt exactly amount towards anything. Figure I might as well give a third party some support, seeing as the democrat will win my states vote.

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*frowns*
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@Notti Thoughts?

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Haven't forgotten.
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