Current Events > I take finasteride for hair loss prevention, AMA

(+) Yeah! (+)

Zanzenburger posted...

$6500 to cover the receding hairline along the sides. That was with a 25% discount special they had going on that month. Signed up for a payment plan for it.

Not a horrible price. I don't mind paying more if they do it right. You should see the "bad hair transplants" video on youtube. Hair transplants are an art, and doctors that don't do it correctly can make your hair look unnatural.

Poop2 posted...

i took it for about 15 years

stopped recently

not much difference in mood but I have noticed I'm not quite as snippy with people.

maybe it raised my anger levels or something.

interesting that it changed your mood like that. i haven't personally noticed that mood change in me.

Poop2 posted...

1mg day. docs said anything more is a waste as your body can only process that much daily apparently.

i used to get cheaper 5mg tabs and break them up so it was a little more than 1 mg

interesting. i know people say that about minoxidil, that you only need to use it once a day and not twice a day like the box recommends. could be true.

the 5mg is Proscar. some people take Proscar and cut it into 1/4th. years ago this would have been an amazing way to save money. nowadays, you can get finasteride pretty cheap so I didn't bother going this route.

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rivers posted...

yeah the studies i've looked at suggest a single 1 mg dose will keep dht down for several days, which is why 1 mg every other day, and potentially even every third day, may be just fine. even a .2 mg daily dose might be sufficient: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190962299800516

why'd you stop taking it?

pain in the ass to get a new script with the quarantine and the online services are kind of a rip off. paying $30 a month $360 a year for what i can buy myself for a fraction.

@Poop2 yeah damn that's a lot. if i understand the billing correctly, pretty sure lemonaid has me paying 30 usd for a 90 day supply@ 1 mg/d, which i intend to take three days per week

speaking of my schedule, @pojr , let me ask you this: do you know anything about ru-58841? i have some on the way.
i mentioned that i'm gaining a bunch of new body hair lately-- specifically on my face, chest and shoulders-- and although i generally shave my face i'd like to let the last little bit fill in. i'm convinced the last phase of my puberty was blocked for many years by a condition i no longer am dealing with, which is helping to drive the new body hair growth as well as the thinning.

would it make sense to hold off on oral fin and just use RU on the scalp for now, then hop on fin for a more sustainable long-term approach once this new growth finishes?

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rivers posted...

@pojr , let me ask you this: do you know anything about ru-58841? i have some on the way.
i mentioned that i'm gaining a bunch of new body hair lately-- specifically on my face, chest and shoulders-- and although i generally shave my face i'd like to let the last little bit fill in. i'm convinced the last phase of my puberty was blocked for many years but a condition i no longer am dealing with, which is helping to drive the new body hair growth as well as the thinning.

would it make sense to hold off on oral fin and just use RU on the scalp for now, then hop on fin for a more sustainable long-term approach once this new growth finishes?

that's a very good question. I have heard of RU58841, and thought about trying it as well. Some people use RU + Finasteride. Some use only RU.

Let me tag my buddy @Krojen, he has some good info about it.

With that said, on paper RU58841 might be a great way to target hair loss, as it inhibits all androgens, not just DHT. DHT is not the only androgen that contributes to hair loss, so this is a good thing.

The only problem with RU58841 is the mystery surrounding it. Studies were being done on it, but then it was abandoned for an unknown reason. There are far more studies done on Finasteride than RU58841, and people were spreading rumors that RU58841 can lead to heart problems. It could just be a silly rumor though. Also, it is a pain in the ass to obtain and probably not cheap. Those reasons are why I have not tried it.

Could it be safe? Probably. But I have responded well to Finasteride so that is why I haven't bothered with it.

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NOM posted...

I wish I would have started taking it way back when I started losing. But it's too far gone with bother with it now.

Does it help re-grow/maintain beard hair?

pojr posted...

Edit: Forgot to answer your question. Although I'm not super familiar with the science behind it, but to my understanding - no it does not affect your beard at all. DHT is commonly seen as mostly responsible for hair loss, and finasteride decreases your DHT levels. beard hair is DHT resistant so it won't affect beard hair.

Beard and body hair is actually DHT dependent to initially form and relies on having androgens to maintain. It's why as you grow older and DHT has had more time to exert its effects on the body, you lose hair on your head and gain it everywhere else.

Rogain works on beards though.

rivers posted...

yeah the studies i've looked at suggest a single 1 mg dose will keep dht down for several days, which is why 1 mg every other day, and potentially even every third day, may be just fine. even a .2 mg daily dose might be sufficient: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190962299800516

Correct, I tried .2mg many times and it gave me sides all the same. It just took a little longer. And as far as body hair on fin goes, the texture of my sideburns completely changed. It certainty can stunt formation of new body hair.

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Good to hear an update and really glad you haven't noticed side effects, pojr.

@rivers
For context to others, I attempted to take fin many times, but always got severe side effects. I switched to RU 6 years ago, never got a single side effect from it, and it's given me a nice full head of hair.

RU was being tested around the same time Propecia was set to hit the market. According to company notes on RU: tests showed it was safe and just as effective as finasteride. They shelved it due to concerns that a daily topical would never compete well with the convenience of a pill. Years later Propecia was proven to be a commercial flop due to the frequency and severity of side effects. I can dig up all the citations for this.

If you can tolerate fin and it works for you I would go that route. Even though RU is both safer and more effective on paper, you never know what shady impurities could be thrown in from the source. You'd have to constantly test every batch and even then its not as well studied as fin.

The heart problems is just forum meme lore. The topic that started it was literally just some guy wondering out loud on some info he misread about another forum member.

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What do you think of body hair on a woman?

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Krojen posted...

Good to hear an update and really glad you haven't noticed side effects, pojr.

@rivers
For context to others, I attempted to take fin many times, but always got severe side effects. I switched to RU 6 years ago, never got a single side effect from it, and it's given me a nice full head of hair.

RU was being tested around the same time Propecia was set to hit the market. According to company notes on RU: tests showed it was safe and just as effective as finasteride. They shelved it due to concerns that a daily topical would never compete well with the convenience of a pill. Years later Propecia was proven to be a commercial flop due to the frequency and severity of side effects. I can dig up all the citations for this.

If you can tolerate fin and it works for you I would go that route. Even though RU is both safer and more effective on paper, you never know what shady impurities could be thrown in from the source. You'd have to constantly test every batch and even then its not as well studied as fin.

The heart problems is just forum meme lore. The topic that started it was literally just some guy wondering out loud on some info he misread about another forum member.

I'd never heard of RU58841 until this topic, but it sounds like it's worth giving it a shot. Reviews online seem to be positive. Apart from sourcing it from the right place, and storing it properly, is there anything that you'd think that I should know?

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Starks posted...

Min. Fin. Niz. Biotin. Dermaroll.

It works and you will see regrowth.

i meant to comment on this sooner

this is pretty much my exact routine, minus the biotin.

i microneedle but I have my doubts about it. I don't think it's super effective like people say. most before and after pictures don't look that much different. and most people don't only microneedle...they also use minoxidil as well. was it really the microneedling at that point, or was it really the minoxidil? not trying to hate, in fact I do microneedle myself, but I don't have much confidence in it.

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I'm 34 and still have a full head of hair so I think I'm safe.

@pojr and @Krojen , thank you!
Krojen, being a long-time user of RU, do you make your own solution using powder? If so, what do you dissolve it in, and what kind of dose and frequency have you settled on?

I'm going to put the fin on hold for a bit and go forward with this. I'll update in six months to a year or something.

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RU seems way too hard/sketch to buy

Brotzu failed and all this replicell stuff is going to cost a fortune
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rivers posted...

I'm going to put the fin on hold for a bit and go forward with this.

I see where you are coming from. If fin were not an option, I may go with RU58841 as well. Like @Krojen , it seems pretty safe and all of the heart problem rumors are just silly reddit posts with no actual evidence.

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Krojen posted...

I can dig up all the citations for this.

do you have the citations? I trust you, but so many people on reddit doubt RU and I want to prove them wrong lmao.

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GBH713 posted...

I'd never heard of RU58841 until this topic, but it sounds like it's worth giving it a shot. Reviews online seem to be positive. Apart from sourcing it from the right place, and storing it properly, is there anything that you'd think that I should know?

Just that you're cognizant of the general risks and have proper expectations. If you're trying not to lose the hair you have now it should keep it and give some mild regrowth depending on your situation. I can answer any specific questions.

rivers posted...

@pojr and @Krojen , thank you!
Krojen, being a long-time user of RU, do you make your own solution using powder? If so, what do you dissolve it in, and what kind of dose and frequency have you settled on?

I'm going to put the fin on hold for a bit and go forward with this. I'll update in six months to a year or something.

I buy 10g of powder each order, store it in the freezer, and make 20ml of solution at a time that I stick in a drawer. I make a 3% solution and use a 1ml needleless syringe to spread out 1.5ml on my scalp every night before bed. Wash it out in the morning. The clinical trials skipped weekends so it's okay to miss a day here and there as needed.

I dissolved it into a 70/30 ethanol/polypropylene glycol solution. It's important to use food grade (non-denatured) ethanol. Usually about 180-200 proof.

Results start between 3-8 months. I first noticed at 3 months after expecting nothing and will never forget the day lol

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pojr posted...

do you have the citations? I trust you, but so many people on reddit doubt RU and I want to prove them wrong lmao.

Hahaha okay. What're the haters saying? I can go find the company notes on clinical trails and the convenience concerns for why they didn't bother going to market. I've been keeping busy lately so just give me a sec.

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Thanks again, pojr and Krojen.
Krojen posted...

I buy 10g of powder each order, store it in the freezer, and make 20ml of solution at a time that I stick in a drawer. I make a 3% solution and use a 1ml needleless syringe to spread out 1.5ml on my scalp every night before bed. Wash it out in the morning. The clinical trials skipped weekends so it's okay to miss a day here and there as needed.

I dissolved it into a 70/30 ethanol/polypropylene glycol solution. It's important to use food grade (non-denatured) ethanol. Usually about 180-200 proof.

Results start between 3-8 months. I first noticed at 3 months after expecting nothing and will never forget the day lol

Great information, and an actionable approach.
Might bust out some of the lab equipment I was using to make carbon 60 olive oil back in the day. (There was some hope from rat studies in the early 2010s that it was going to be the next big thing in radical life extension.)

Have you had blood tests over the years? Is there any evidence of RU getting into the general circulation and having a negative effect on serum testosterone, or can it be relied on to hang out in and around the follicles?

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Crash posted...

I also take this drug and have been for about seven years. I've maintained a perfect Norwood 1 because I jumped on it at the first sign of thinning. It's also worth noting that if finasteride loses its efficacy, you can switch to dutasteride. I've also had zero side effects on it, and take 0.5 mg every day.

@Zanzenburger Got any before/after pics you wouldn't mind sharing regarding your transplant? How aggressive did you go with the hairline?

Sure, but you won't see much difference right now, as my hair is still growing back from being shaved for the procedure. You'll see more of a difference once my hair grows back to its regular length, as that's where the missing follicles in the front were most prevalent. Also, I didn't lower the hairline, just replaced the hairline I lost. Lowering the hairline would have added a couple more thousand. I may lower the hairline a few years down the road when I have more spending money.



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Last song listened to?

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BlingBling22947 posted...

Last song listened to?

https://youtu.be/BFRnXE6kl74

don't judge me haha
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i too take 1 mg finasteride daily

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hair goals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6td9KUZMfw

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What phone do you have?

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p
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BlingBling22947 posted...

What phone do you have?

Google 3a
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rivers posted...

Thanks again, pojr and Krojen.

Great information, and an actionable approach.
Might bust out some of the lab equipment I was using to make carbon 60 olive oil back in the day. (There was some hope from rat studies in the early 2010s that it was going to be the next big thing in radical life extension.)

Have you had blood tests over the years? Is there any evidence of RU getting into the general circulation and having a negative effect on serum testosterone, or can it be relied on to hang out in and around the follicles?

Nice, I'm really into the longevity scene too.

In the early days of my fin and RU experimentation, I did a lot of blood tests. Formed a good enough relationship with my endocrinologist to share RU studies. Fin significantly raised my estrogen and things returned to normal after quitting. RU had no measurable effects. RU blocks androgen receptors in the hair follicles so that T cannot attach to them. So its mechanism isn't to nuke hormones from your body like fin.

RU has a half life of 1 hour, the small amount that makes it to the bloodstream is rapidly broken down into a very weak metabolite. The monkey trails showed no systematic absorption problems.

I'm back and with sources next post

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Krojen posted...

Nice, I'm really into the longevity scene too.

Cool-- doing or taking anything out of the ordinary?
I used to be very particular with my diet, but these days my main focuses are on staying lean and energetic by preparing my own mostly whole foods, not eating too much, and avoiding added vegetable oils.

As I reach my 40s, or more likely my 50s, I'll look into rapamycin (interesting stuff here: rapamycintherapy.com), and who knows what else we'll have by then...

I'm back and with sources next post

Very cool.
I've taken the plunge into experimental territory: just applied and massaged in my first drops of RU-58841 serum into my hairline.

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Why not Minoxidil? Or is Minoxidil an ingredient in finasteride?

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Ive been using Minoxidil+Finasteride combo since January when I noticed rapid hair loss. I would shower and run my hand through my hair and see entire bushes of hair falling off.

Since starting, my hair loss has stopped almost entirely. Ive also had significant hair growth and my hair is as thick as it was when I was 16. This has only been in ~6 months. Im lucky in that I acted early and respond well to the medications.

And no side effects here. Im still getting boners and busting nuts and having sex like I always had.

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dib153 posted...

Why not Minoxidil? Or is Minoxidil an ingredient in finasteride?

The problem with minoxidil is that it doesn't work long term. It does nothing to counteract male pattern baldness, so you may see regrowth but once your balding progresses - you'll lose your gains.
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Last movie you watched?

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Hair transplant update: Looks like all the transplanted hair is falling off and my hairline looks just like before the treatment (possibly slightly worse). This is expected as the trauma from the surgery puts the hair follicles into rest mode for a while. Supposedly the hair will grow back in about 2-5 months and much thicker. Still doesn't make it easier to look at right now $6k later lol.

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Zanzenburger posted...

Hair transplant update: Looks like all the transplanted hair is falling off and my hairline looks just like before the treatment (possibly slightly worse). This is expected as the trauma from the surgery puts the hair follicles into rest mode for a while. Supposedly the hair will grow back in about 2-5 months and much thicker. Still doesn't make it easier to look at right now $6k later lol.

So the hair still goes through a shedding phase? Didn't know that but it makes sense, I've seen videos of that transplant process

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Taharqa_ posted...

So the hair still goes through a shedding phase? Didn't know that but it makes sense, I've seen videos of that transplant process

Yep, it surprised me as I didn't learn about that until after the procedure (they probably don't tell you before since they don't want to scare you into not doing it). I'm glad I didn't get to see what they actually did. My head was numb with medication but I could still feel the pressure of them scraping holes into my scalp to plant the follicles *shudders*

The the shedding will continue on and off for a few months before everything goes back to normal. For some people it can take up to one year but I was told my hair is growing back very fast so I should see the full results in less than five months.


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rivers posted...

Cool-- doing or taking anything out of the ordinary?
I used to be very particular with my diet, but these days my main focuses are on staying lean and energetic by preparing my own mostly whole foods, not eating too much, and avoiding added vegetable oils.

As I reach my 40s, or more likely my 50s, I'll look into rapamycin (interesting stuff here: rapamycintherapy.com), and who knows what else we'll have by then...

Very cool.
I've taken the plunge into experimental territory: just applied and massaged in my first drops of RU-58841 serum into my hairline.

I keep tabs on all the longevity scene drugs like metformin, rapamycin, etc along with a few others I've run into in my search for research chem sources and garage gene editing. To date, I'm not interested in trying any myself. As for diet, I've been a mostly whole food vegan that avoids oils for a few years.

Nice and good luck! Let me know how it goes.

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Some quick history: RU58841 was bought by ProStrakan and renamed to PSK-3841, so a few studies and documents reference RU by this name instead.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8136306/
The initial animal study showing its anti-androgen effects without systematic risks to T levels and sex organ function.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9798729/
This next animal study was performed on stumptailed macaques. They go bald through the same mechanisms as humans.
topical application revealed a potent increase in density, thickening, and length of hair in the macaque model of androgenetic alopecia, whereas no systemic effects were detected.
https://i.imgur.com/rOmHr4b.jpg

Side note, RU makes sebaceous glands chill out so no more greasy hair and forehead if you ever struggled with that. This works for acne as well. More data with no systemic effects and that the glands revert back once you stop the treatment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7625751/

ProStraken human RU safety and tolerance trial of 5% twice daily
http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN49873657
ProStraken human RU trials with 2.5% and 5% solutions over 6 months
http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN71083772
PSK 3841 ProSkelia partnering opportunity, Worldwide Partners are sought by ProSkelia for the development of PSK 3841, Neil Brown, Vice President of Licensing and Acquisitions at ProSkelia, announced during a presentation at BioSquare PSK 3841, a nonsteroidal antiandrogen, has completed phase IIa trials for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia and a clinical proof-of-concept study to reduce sebum flow and secretion in patients with acne. Six months of treatment with PSK 3481 demonstrated equivalent or better net hair growth compared with finasteride

This lead to market analysis for RU. By this time the drug was pretty old and with limited time to generate revenue. It was identified as having value, but was not a priority to the company post merger. It was again noted to have results that compared well with finasteride, but with it being an inconvenient topical vs pill combined with previously mentioned challenges it was ultimately shelved.
https://i.imgur.com/5HSYeKd.jpg

There are so many drugs out there that are slightly better than what's on the market, but if a company doesn't think it's worth spending tons of money to bring to market in the limited time they have domain over it then it's shelved forever.

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How's that sex drive and man titties?

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Krojen posted...

Nice and good luck! Let me know how it goes.

Thank you! I tagged you and pojr and will be sure to check in some months down the road.

Thanks also for the research links. Saving that post for later reference.

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Irony posted...

How's that sex drive and man titties?

normal and nonexistant. these are both possible side affects, but doesnt mean everyone gets them lmao.

Krojen posted...

Some quick history: RU58841 was bought by ProStrakan and renamed to PSK-3841, so a few studies and documents reference RU by this name instead.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8136306/
The initial animal study showing its anti-androgen effects without systematic risks to T levels and sex organ function.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9798729/
This next animal study was performed on stumptailed macaques. They go bald through the same mechanisms as humans.
topical application revealed a potent increase in density, thickening, and length of hair in the macaque model of androgenetic alopecia, whereas no systemic effects were detected.
https://i.imgur.com/rOmHr4b.jpg

Side note, RU makes sebaceous glands chill out so no more greasy hair and forehead if you ever struggled with that. This works for acne as well. More data with no systemic effects and that the glands revert back once you stop the treatment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7625751/

ProStraken human RU safety and tolerance trial of 5% twice daily
http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN49873657
ProStraken human RU trials with 2.5% and 5% solutions over 6 months
http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN71083772
PSK 3841 ProSkelia partnering opportunity, Worldwide Partners are sought by ProSkelia for the development of PSK 3841, Neil Brown, Vice President of Licensing and Acquisitions at ProSkelia, announced during a presentation at BioSquare PSK 3841, a nonsteroidal antiandrogen, has completed phase IIa trials for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia and a clinical proof-of-concept study to reduce sebum flow and secretion in patients with acne. Six months of treatment with PSK 3481 demonstrated equivalent or better net hair growth compared with finasteride

This lead to market analysis for RU. By this time the drug was pretty old and with limited time to generate revenue. It was identified as having value, but was not a priority to the company post merger. It was again noted to have results that compared well with finasteride, but with it being an inconvenient topical vs pill combined with previously mentioned challenges it was ultimately shelved.
https://i.imgur.com/5HSYeKd.jpg

There are so many drugs out there that are slightly better than what's on the market, but if a company doesn't think it's worth spending tons of money to bring to market in the limited time they have domain over it then it's shelved forever.

this is some very good info, thank you so much. I do have one question though. you said the project was shelved because of the inconvenience of it vs taking a pill. however, I couldn't find that confirmation in the sources. unless I missed it lol.

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pojr posted...

this is some very good info, thank you so much. I do have one question though. you said the project was shelved because of the inconvenience of it vs taking a pill. however, I couldn't find that confirmation in the sources. unless I missed it lol.

That was one of a few factors including the drug's age, etc. The Morgan Stanley analysis notes that RU results compare well with finasteride but it's only of modest value and thus isn't a priority for the company post merger. I distinctly remember reading on other pages that a factor of its value was that consumers prefer pills to topicals (and I've seen others say it so I'm not crazy lol) but I can't find those notes atm.

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Why hasnt this topic died yet??

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SamsungGearS2 posted...

Why hasnt this topic died yet??

The finasteride's been working.

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Favorite color?

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Krojen posted...

That was one of a few factors including the drug's age, etc. The Morgan Stanley analysis notes that RU results compare well with finasteride but it's only of modest value and thus isn't a priority for the company post merger. I distinctly remember reading on other pages that a factor of its value was that consumers prefer pills to topicals (and I've seen others say it so I'm not crazy lol) but I can't find those notes atm.

oh gotcha. hope you're not offended that i asked haha, you're definitely one of the gurus when it comes to hair loss, but i had to ask for clarification, because even some noteworthy youtubers claimed that the product was shelved for "unknown reasons".

SamsungGearS2 posted...

Why hasnt this topic died yet??

i guess this thread has a bigger following than i thought. i just want people to be well educated on hair loss, and to take action if they want to.

BlingBling22947 posted...

Favorite color?

blue homie

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pojr posted...

oh gotcha. hope you're not offended that i asked haha, you're definitely one of the gurus when it comes to hair loss, but i had to ask for clarification, because even some noteworthy youtubers claimed that the product was shelved for "unknown reasons".

No not at all lol. I never had much interest in the youtube hair loss scene because they would just present surface level forum knowledge on stuff like this. Like it's pretty clear from that Morgan Stanley paper alone that the drug simply wasn't a priority to the company based on its modest value. That they were trying to pawn it off on a dermatology company and were in discussions but ultimately weren't fruitful. This happens more often than not with drugs in this range.

Its modest value, based on my memory (and all 3 are true regardless if sourced from notes), was due to consumer preference towards pills, a small window of time to profit before the generics come, and Propecia itself not being a smashing hit. This was still before the cat was out of the bag on stuff like post finasteride syndrome and fin's side effects. It would be another 10ish years til Baylor University studied the dangers of fin and a journal like JAMA Dermatology saying finasteride should've never been approved.

So to say RU was shelved for unknown reasons in a mysterious tone is just ignorant. There weren't even additional studies conducted around that time that would find such sinister things.

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Krojen posted...

pojr posted...

oh gotcha. hope you're not offended that i asked haha, you're definitely one of the gurus when it comes to hair loss, but i had to ask for clarification, because even some noteworthy youtubers claimed that the product was shelved for "unknown reasons".

No not at all lol. I never had much interest in the youtube hair loss scene because they would just present surface level forum knowledge on stuff like this. Like it's pretty clear from that Morgan Stanley paper alone that the drug simply wasn't a priority to the company based on its modest value. That they were trying to pawn it off on a dermatology company and were in discussions but ultimately weren't fruitful. This happens more often than not with drugs in this range.

Its modest value, based on my memory (and all 3 are true regardless if sourced from notes), was due to consumer preference towards pills, a small window of time to profit before the generics come, and Propecia itself not being a smashing hit. This was still before the cat was out of the bag on stuff like post finasteride syndrome and fin's side effects. It would be another 10ish years til Baylor University studied the dangers of fin and a journal like JAMA Dermatology saying finasteride should've never been approved.

So to say RU was shelved for unknown reasons in a mysterious tone is just ignorant. There weren't even additional studies conducted around that time that would find such sinister things.

That is good to know. I'm not sure if you've heard of Kevin Mann on YouTube. He has a decent amount of information about hair loss, but he is very pro finasteride, and truth is it's clear that he has some insecurities. Kind of a weird dude, but he can be good to gain some information about hair loss and how to prevent it.
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pojr posted...

That is good to know. I'm not sure if you've heard of Kevin Mann on YouTube. He has a decent amount of information about hair loss, but he is very pro finasteride, and truth is it's clear that he has some insecurities. Kind of a weird dude, but he can be good to gain some information about hair loss and how to prevent it.

Just looked him up and wow.. saw a couple of his vids 4 or 5 years ago and haven't thought about him since. He's a strange character for sure lol

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