Current Events > Could you forgive a Nazi?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Anyone that actually committed atrocities, I could never forgive. You made your choice of doing horrible things, even if (in this hypothetical) your family was on the line

If it was just a German cannon fodder soldier though, then maybe

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Yes

I don't believe you. You say that you'd let the people you love die and give your own life for people you don't know. In both cases your family are innocents versus people you don't know also being innocents.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Ehh not really

Jews in Finland fought the Soviets which at the time was an enemy of Nazis who were invading Russia. So they fought together

But Nazis purged Jews from their ranks with gusto . Even ones with Jewish ancestors were arrested and had to pass purity tests

And had the Nazis taken Russia those Jews would not be safe

I think you're thinking of WW1.

Oh sweet summer child.
Emil Maurice, one of the founders of SS, had Jewish blood in his veins. Himmler wanted him killed but Hitler declared him Honorary Aryan.
Erhard Milch oversaw the development of the Luftwaffe and he had a Jewish father. They solved this by making his mother confess that she had had sex with her brother.
Walter Hollaender was a highly decorated Oberst in the Wehrmacht and he was also a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Aaaand he was a half-Jew.
And speaking about WWI, Jewish WWI veterans were sent to the front as cannon fodder. There are both books and documentaries about this.

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Depending on his character, maybe he truly does want forgiveness.. but I can't give him that since I'm no one to give that out anyways

COVxy posted...

Sure.

People are people, not masses of good or evil. You've almost certainly done shit that's caused irreparable damage as well, just on a different scale so it's easier to pretend like it doesn't matter. The question is really about whether the person is now trying to breed as much positive influence on the world as they reasonably can. Like, are they now trying to be better.

Im not sure wEvE aLl DoNe BaD tHiNgS is a great point when discussing Nazis

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RebelElite791 posted...

Im not sure wEvE aLl DoNe BaD tHiNgS is a great point when discussing Nazis

I don't think the fundamental argument changes whether we're talking about a Nazi, someone who killed someone during a DUI, or someone who bullied another kid when they were children.

Damage is already done, no way to take it back. "Repenting" for a lifetime doesn't change a thing. I'd rather assess people on the basis of their current motivations.

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RedJackson posted...

Depending on his character, maybe he truly does want forgiveness.. but I can't give him that since I'm no one to give that out anyways

This is an entirely reasonable response.

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COVxy posted...

I don't think the fundamental argument changes whether we're talking about a Nazi, someone who killed someone during a DUI, or someone who bullied another kid when they were children.

Damage is already done, no way to take it back. "Repenting" for a lifetime doesn't change a thing. I'd rather assess people on the basis of their current motivations.

I think the argument very much changes depending on if they were a bully as a child or a perpetrator of genocide as an adult.

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RebelElite791 posted...

I think the argument very much changes depending on if they were a bully as a child or a perpetrator of genocide as an adult.

Then you dont understand my argument.

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COVxy posted...

Then you dont understand my argument.

I understand it fine, its just stubbornly and stupidly refusing to take context into account. Someone could NEVER repent for bullying as a child and still be a good person. Someone who helped commit genocide can never repent from that. Ever.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

I don't believe you. You say that you'd let the people you love die and give your own life for people you don't know. In both cases your family are innocents versus people you don't know also being innocents.

It's called not giving into terrorism

If you do then you communicate to everyone that terrorism works and its repeated In the future

Foppe posted...

Oh sweet summer child.
Emil Maurice, one of the founders of SS, had Jewish blood in his veins. Himmler wanted him killed but Hitler declared him Honorary Aryan.
Erhard Milch oversaw the development of the Luftwaffe and he had a Jewish father. They solved this by making his mother confess that she had had sex with her brother.
Walter Hollaender was a highly decorated Oberst in the Wehrmacht and he was also a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Aaaand he was a half-Jew.
And speaking about WWI, Jewish WWI veterans were sent to the front as cannon fodder. There are both books and documentaries about this.

These are exceptional outliers who by your own admission had to undergo purity tests and stigma.

And most of the WW1 Jewish veterans were arrested, only a minority (no pun intended) were used as "canonfodder'

Going "Well Nazis and Jews fought side by side for the cause!" is dishonest and disingenuous as fuck

Very disrespectful to the Jews that were rounded up and killed
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RebelElite791 posted...

I understand it fine, its just stubbornly and stupidly refusing to take context into account. Someone could NEVER repent for bullying as a child and still be a good person. Someone who helped commit genocide can never repent from that. Ever.

I don't believe in repentance. I don't believe it serves any purpose. To expand, I don't believe in vengeance based criminal justice program.

I don't think you understand my argument because you keep responding to me as if I think people need to pay for the bad things they do.

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No, because it never affected me.

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COVxy posted...

I don't believe in repentance. I don't believe it serves any purpose. To expand, I don't believe in vengeance based criminal justice program.

I don't think you understand my argument because you keep responding to me as if I think people need to pay for the bad things they do.

Yeah so just stupid centrist bullshit that refuses to hold anyone accountable for their own actions. Cool.

VTBM posted...

No, because it never affected me.

Lol so fucking blatant. But we all know what sites you post on

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I dont know what sites he posts on

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RebelElite791 posted...

Yeah so just stupid centrist bullshit that refuses to hold anyone accountable for their own actions. Cool.

Rehabilitative based justice systems, and the removal of putative justice was pretty far left last I checked...

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R1masher posted...

I dont know what sites he posts on

You can probably guess based on his post itt

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If he believed the crazy nazi shit, no. If he happened to exist in nazi Germany and went along with it under duress but has since repented, maybe.
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The post ww2 grunt gestapo member who just fought for his country who under went denazification? Probably

A member of the SS or someone who worked at the concentration camps? No

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Given those circumstances, yes I would.

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KillerKhan420 posted...

The post ww2 grunt gestapo member who just fought for his country who under went denazification? Probably

A member of the SS or someone who worked at the concentration camps? No

The gestapo were not grunts

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

I don't believe you. You say that you'd let the people you love die and give your own life for people you don't know. In both cases your family are innocents versus people you don't know also being innocents.

Yup you can always tell the simpletons from asking questions like this. "I'd always do the morally correct option despite the consequences"

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Blue_School posted...

Yup you can always tell the simpletons from asking questions like this. "I'd always do the morally correct option despite the consequences"

He isn't so much a simpleton as he is a contrarian.

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RebelElite791 posted...

The gestapo were not grunts"

This. JFC people should be forced to have a basic understanding of Nazi Germany before posting in any topic related to it.

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Funny how when Police Reserve Battalion 101 was tasked to help carry out the Final Solution in Poland, starting with the mass shooting of Jews from Jzefw ghetto on July 13, 1942, men who felt unable to carry on taking part in the firing squads asked to be relieved and transferred to other duties -- and their request was granted, without them suffering any dire consequences. This whole "If I hadn't murdered Jews, my own family would have been killed" justification offered by former killers is largely a self-serving lie.

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This nazi wasn't forgiven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsMbpt5ix0

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Ving_Rhames posted...

I can forgive anyone who shows genuine remorse. Doesnt mean Id pardon them at the same time.

This is an excellent answer.

one of the things that irks me most about protestant culture is the idea that people are owed forgiveness, and that it's your duty to forgive them. they are owed nothing, and it's their duty to change their behaviour and make amends if they want forgiveness.

feeling bad about what you did is not making amends -- it doesn't even inherently mean changed behaviour. it also doesn't mean that they wouldn't do it again if given the chance

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Depends entirely on how he's repented.

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Firewerx posted...

Funny how when Police Reserve Battalion 101 was tasked to help carry out the Final Solution in Poland, starting with the mass shooting of Jews from Jzefw ghetto on July 13, 1942, men who felt unable to carry on taking part in the firing squads asked to be relieved and transferred to other duties -- and their request was granted, without them suffering any dire consequences. This whole "If I hadn't murdered Jews, my own family would have been killed" justification offered by former killers is largely a self-serving lie.

You cant expect CE to be well read on this subject.

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FlameTurtle posted...

You cant expect CE to be well read on this subject.

I kind of expect CE to have soaked up the same myths and misconceptions, simplistic generalizations and fuzzy assumptions as pretty much anyone else. But I don't like to see the same defence trotted out to excuse Nazi mass murderers every time, with all the finger-wagging certainty about how these were all essentially innocent men press-ganged into becoming perpetrators and how it was impossible for them to make a moral choice.

I know their defenders think they're actually trying to paint a more nuanced picture by removing agency from the perpetrators -- these were ordinary men, not inhuman, bloodlusting demons, so the argument runs. But the reality is in fact even more complicated than that. Men were sometimes given an opportunity to avoid the dirty work; in the hours before the Jzefw massacre began, the battalion's commanding officer actually offered his men the chance to not participate -- and many of them declined to take it, apparently out of fear of seeming "weak" in front of their comrades.

Edit: Damn, I see you already knew that.

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Firewerx posted...

I kind of expect CE to have soaked up the same myths and misconceptions, simplistic generalizations and fuzzy assumptions as pretty much anyone else. But I don't like to see the same defence trotted out to excuse Nazi mass murderers every time, with all the finger-wagging certainty about how these were all essentially innocent men press-ganged into becoming perpetrators and how it was impossible for them to make a moral choice.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. I think that this is the first time I've ever seen someone talk about Ordinary Men in a topic like this.

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