Current Events > Are two identical spheres the same object?

(+) Yeah! (+)

There are two spheres. They are indiscernible. They exist in a symmetrical universe. Are they the same thing or not?

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Nope.

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That's like asking if 2 boobs are the same object

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NeonOctopus posted...

That's like asking if 2 boobs are the same object

No it isn't, because two boobs don't exist in a symmetrical universe and they aren't exactly the same anyway,

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dolomedes posted...

wtf does this mean lol

If you use the example of two boobs, one boob can be closer to some external object than the other boob. There is no such relation for the two spheres, which are perfectly and always identical.

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EffectAndCause posted...

Nope.

If the answer is no then the identity of indiscernibles is not true in the strong form, btw

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Based on the very premise, there are two spheres. So obviously they are not the same thing.
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lilORANG posted...

Based on the very premise, there are two spheres. So obviously they are not the same thing.

Sure but how do you tell them apart? And if everything that happens to one sphere happens to the other, how can they be different?

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I don't understand why they would be. You said they were two of them.

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cjsdowg posted...

I don't understand why they would be. You said they were two of them.

It would be the same sphere in two locations.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Sure but how do you tell them apart? And if everything that happens to one sphere happens to the other, how can they be different?

This is entirely irrelevant. Identical twins get mixed up, must be the same person!
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Reminds me of quantum mechanics.

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I guess the best way to phrase it, is: are two identical spheres the same as one sphere in two locations?

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And we just had a same-time post. This topic is getting trippy, man.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

I guess the best way to phrase it, is: are two identical spheres the same as one sphere in two locations?

no, it wouldn't be the same because in the former, they can both be affected independently of each other, whereas I'm assume the latter, the sphere in both places would change exactly the same

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

I guess the best way to phrase it, is: are two identical spheres the same as one sphere in two locations?

No
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Unless they share the same space, they are differentiated by their two different positions, so you can say the one on the left or the one behind.

lilORANG posted...

This is entirely irrelevant. Identical twins get mixed up, must be the same person!

physical twins in the physical world are not the exact same thing, if you make one blue the other doesn't turn blue.

Shablagoo posted...

And we just had a same-time post. This topic is getting trippy, man.

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nfearurspecimn posted...

no

lilORANG posted...

No

why?

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nemu posted...

Unless they share the same space, they are differentiated by their two different positions, so you can say the one on the left or the one behind.

this is assuming you can see them. what if you can't? what if they are not in the same vicinity?

i mean in this case you could even have them share the same space, why not?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

why?

I assumed you mean effectively, but it wouldn't be the same because in the former, they can both be affected independently of each other, whereas in assume the latter, the sphere in both places would change exactly the same

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

why?

Because one premise establishes that there are 2 separate spheres, and the other premise establishes that we're only talking about 1 sphere.
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lilORANG posted...

Because one premise establishes that there are 2 separate spheres, and the other premise establishes that we're only talking about 1 sphere.

how would you distinguish the two logically? it's still two spherical objects, just that they differ semantically and depend on you knowing that difference

'A and B' and 'A and A' don't work because A=B can logically be true here

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

this is assuming you can see them. what if you can't? what if they are not in the same vicinity?

Then you say the one I can see and the one I cant see. If you cannot see either, then it doesnt matter because there could be 0 or a trillion in that case. As long as there is an observer, then they are different no matter what properties they share unless were getting into quantum shit.

Maybe maybe not

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

There are two spheres. They are indiscernible. They exist in a symmetrical universe. Are they the same thing or not?

If the universe is symmetrical then every object in it is symmetrical and not just the sphere, correct?

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nemu posted...

Then you say the one I can see and the one I cant see. If you cannot see either, then it doesnt matter because there could be 0 or a trillion in that case. As long as there is an observer, then they are different no matter what properties they share unless were getting into quantum shit.

quantum mechanics would probably be different, who knows for sure. But if you switch their places and are unaware of which is which, you're out of luck again

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Tyranthraxus posted...

If the universe is symmetrical then every object in it is symmetrical and not just the sphere, correct?

assume there are just the two spheres in this case

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

assume there are just the two spheres in this case

An empty pair universes except for this one sphere and nothing else? Not even forces?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

quantum mechanics would probably be different, who knows for sure. But if you switch their places and are unaware of which is which, you're out of luck again

Thats a failure on the part of the observer to differentiate. If you switch out my favorite mug with one that looks exactly the same down to the scratches, its not the same mug.

How high are you TC?

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Tyranthraxus posted...

An empty pair universes except for this one sphere and nothing else? Not even forces?

i mean you can have forces if you want? everything impacts both spheres identically.


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nemu posted...

Thats a failure on the part of the observer to differentiate. If you switch out my favorite mug with one that looks exactly the same down to the scratches, its not the same mug.

yeah but you're using two different mugs, not two mugs that are the same. if you scratch the new mug the old one will be fine. remember, you said looks, not is/are.

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VonOrdelia posted...

How high are you TC?

not particularly


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MedeaLysistrata posted...

yeah but you're using two different mugs, not two mugs that are the same. if you scratch the new mug the old one will be fine.

And you have two different spheres. The spheres are just linked in some way like the FTL communication method used in Mass Effect. Theyre two items that share the same property rather than one item taking up two spaces.

Similarity != Equivalency
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nemu posted...

And you have two different spheres. The spheres are just linked in some way like the FTL communication method used in Mass Effect. Theyre two items that share the same property rather than one item taking up two spaces.

i didn't say two different spheres, i said two identical spheres. how did you miss that?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

i mean you can have forces if you want? everything impacts both spheres identically.

Then they're discrete spheres.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Then they're different spheres.

how so? and does this hold without physical forces?

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

i didn't say two different spheres, i said two identical spheres. how did you miss that?

Sharing different spaces means they are different, unless youre saying its a unique singular entity that just happens to be in two spaces but then that gets into quantum shit that isnt worth debating.

So theyre both spheres. Identical spheres at that, but theyre not the same sphere.

BroodRyu posted...

So theyre both spheres. Identical spheres at that, but theyre not the same sphere.

well it's the same sphere in two locations... or two identical spheres in two locations, I guess that says the same thing because if two things are identical then how are they different

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this is why i made the topic:

if you have two metaphysical theories, and they share the same universe as a referent, then I don't see how metaphysical theories can really ever explain a world separate from another theory, since all of the facts are coming from the same concrete referent.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

how so? and does this hold without physical forces?

No. Without forces you don't really have a universe. At this point you're discussing a concept so the question becomes if I conceive of a sphere and you conceive of the exact same sphere, then is it 1 concept or 2 identical concepts? And the answer is probably just 1 concept held by 2 people simultaneously.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

I guess that says the same thing because if two things are identical then how are they different

Would you say two identical twins are one person in two places at the same time? No, they are separate entities.

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Your description is a little unclear. When you say its the same sphere in two locations are you referring to how they both are the exact same down to every last detail, or are you trying to say its the same object somehow taking up two places in space time?

If its the latter, is that even possible?

TC is just word vomiting on himself at this point
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nfearurspecimn posted...

Would you say two identical twins are one person in two places at the same time? No, they are separate entities.

Identical twin doesn't mean literally identical >_>

BroodRyu posted...

Your description is a little unclear. When you say its the same sphere in two locations are you referring to how they both are the exact same down to every last detail, or are you trying to say its the same object somehow taking up two places in space time?

yeah, same sphere

lilORANG posted...

TC is just word vomiting on himself at this point

lol, the fuck is your problem? leave if you think that

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I dont really understand your question then.