Board 8 > seabassdebeste finishes ffviii: ultima weapon edition (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Time for character and series rankings

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pjbasis posted...

For some reason I thought if you changed Griever's name it didn't actually reflect in the battle.

I swear this happened to me on my very first playthrough on PS1 disk. I remember being disappointed that it was still called Griever in final battle. But every single time I have played through since then its name changed to whatever I called the ring. Very strange

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Yeah I feel like I remember that.

But I also "remembered" name input screens for the other party members once so who knows.

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Leonhart4 posted...

Time for character and series rankings

Yes! Or any other kind of rankings! I'd also like to know if you came around on the music, I remember earlier on you said you didn't see what was so great about the OST.

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I'm hoping Seabass goes to FF9 next and does another playthrough topic to complete the PSX trilogy...

Though I've also been so busy with work I haven't even read any of andy's FF5 one yet, hopefully that's still ongoing (and doesn't purge before I get freed up!)

Also I always liked "The Legendary Beast" more than "Maybe I'm a Lion" from a pure song perspective, but also that's a legit epic part of the boss fight, the music dropping, the ground shaking, Legendary Beast kicking in while you get hit with Shockwave Pulsar. That and the Final Ultimecia intro def my two favourite parts of that whole sequence.

Yeah, I'm a Legendary Beast > Maybe I'm a Lion guy, too, but if you're overpowered, you might barely hear Legendary Beast during that sequence!

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I've finished my FFV playthrough Martin! It's not purged yet though. I'm doing VI next (probs not til Jan) then IX.

Legendary Beast is super underrated and so is Premonition imo. The Extreme is still top.

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WazzupGenius00 posted...

You might not even remember this by now but you chose the name "Griever" for that GF. It was the name you picked for the lion on Squall's chain when Rinoa asked about it.

Yeah, I realized this after looking on Wiki for the names of the final boss tracks. I utterly forgot about that sequence in part because it was such a non sequitur and, let's be real, because I played it like months ago...

They're good tracks, but I was always casting something, and the volume is kind of set so that the spells are way noisier than regular attacks, so I didn't hear it as much! These tracks aren't super-catchy at the beginning so that also made me appreciate them a little less. They are really nice, though.

mccheyne posted...

Maybe Im a Lion and The Extreme are both so good. Still listen to them both to this day. Legendary Beast isnt a slouch either!

I'm thinking that Maybe I'm a Lion > The Extreme > Legendary Beast?

pjbasis posted...

How do you feel about Seifer finding his redemption off screen through fishing?

This was my favorite scene of the ending! Raijin and Fujin are ride-or-die. It's unfortunate that Seifer's final in-game dialogue and whatever were forgettable - I think he could have been a lot better realized - but the Raijin/Fujin-Odin-Gilgamesh final sequence was great, and I absolutely loved this scene - how you could see the latent frustration in his eyes slowly go away.

More rankingz to come
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Quick overview of the characters...

Squall - As moody as promised! As I mentioned before, most of the greatness for Squall is of the "thrust upon him and desperately demanded of him" variety instead of the personal struggle variety. Other than skill and looks, he doesn't show much that causes everyone to insist upon his being so damn important. Everyone's insistence on making Squall their leader was mindnumbingly annoying in the first half of the game. Once he does get that responsibility forced on him, he steps it up a little and winds up being a solid member of the cast.

Seifer - I think we're missing just a little something to flesh out Seifer, that maybe was in the game. Why did he wind up being so desperate to be someone's Knight? Does he care about Rinoa, who seems to care about him? He has a badass character design and some really neat fights, but... I just wish we had more from him, and/or that we could have had him as a playable character later!

Quistis - Contributed basically nothing to the game, unfortunately. She has this really dumb crush on Squall that's resolved in one of the stupider ways imaginable, and she seems like obvious fetish-bait with the hot-for-teacher and the whip motifs.

Zell - High-energy to an annoying extent, but obviously good-hearted. Story-wise he winds up just stanning for Squall a lot and that's kind of unfortunate.

Selphie - I usually appreciate the Genki Girl archetype. Selphie definitely fits; her train stuff was fun, and her insistence on going to Trabia Garden was also appreciated. Ultimately she didn't seem that important, so she didn't get that much play, but now I'm a bit sad.

Rinoa - I wanted to like her so much. She's beautiful, she's the main love interest, and she's likable... but also she is entirely defined by her relationship to men, she's constantly constantly being kidnapped, and she complains about her weakness that aren't really backed up by anything and don't really add anything to the story. You could read FFVIII as a coming of age story for Rinoa, but from that angle, it's also sadly underdeveloped. The good part is that she has a dog. She was also fun with Auto-Haste and Auto-Protect, though those of course are... not so much characteristics of her. Gameplay probably in a different section, though.

Irvine - Like Selphie, Irvine plays a fun archetype as the womanizer. It does get to kind of creepy levels at first, but the revelation that HE GREW UP IN THE SAME ORPHANAGE as them does lower the creep factor by a bit. He's got a cool character design but doesn't have a lot else going for him.

Laguna - Obviously the most enjoyable character. It's obvious why he's not the main character of this story: he lacks that 90s teen angst that characterizes Squall and, honestly, Cloud as well. Wholesome, funny, and energetic without being annoying - this is my type of character.

Edea - Her motivations don't really make a drop of sense until the end, but she's not even herself for most of the time when she's on screen as the villain, and after that she becomes a non-character, like Cid. (Cid/Edea's relationship is also dropped in out of nowhere and goes nowhere, like many other things about FFVIII's plot - but maybe I can save the plot discussion for a different section.)

Ultimecia - just kidding.

CHARACTER RANKING: Laguna >>> Squall > Seifer > Zell > Selphie > Rinoa > Irvine > Quistis > Edea
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Why did he wind up being so desperate to be someone's Knight?

He was a big fan of a certain movie. Seifer's fighting stance is what it is for a reason!

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in case you need a little more help figuring it out
https://i.redd.it/v1xu6feo1o221.png

Another neat detail that you would never realize on a first playthrough: in the outer space sections you learn that the Radio Interference that drives some early parts of the plot is caused by Sorceress Adel's Tomb orbiting the planet. What you definitely didn't realize is that some of the interference carries a message from the Sorceress, as seen in this scene in Timber when the President of Galbadia addresses the world:

It reads "I AM ALIVE HERE BRING ME BACK THERE I WILL NEVER LET YOU FORGET ABOUT ME I WILL NEVER LET YOU BOUND ME BACK"


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FF8 is full of super interesting setups and well thought out connections like that Timber message, it just does a bad job most times of actually conveying them to the player or following through in a way that would be satisfying. It frustrates me because the game is so damn imaginative, it really needed another script rewrite. I mean considering it came out only two years after 1997 they did a good job but there's so many areas where some more time would've cleaned things up.

My hot take has always been that the narrative would be more successful if Adel and Ultimecia were merged into a single character. You have all this setup of Adel layered into the background of the first couple of discs, then Ultimecia pops up out of nowhere and Adel is dispatched in a single boss battle. Adel could've used her evidently potent powers to reach into Edea's mind from space etc.

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There's so much they could add and fix to a remake of 8. Sadly we'll never see it because everyone is obsessed with 7.

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Yeah, FFVIII does a good job of inserting lore and foreshadowing, but they don't always do the best job of explaining it at the right time or making that explanation easily accessible. The Rinoa romance is really jarring for some people because so many of her best scenes with Squall are optional, and the game gives you the opportunity to be a jerk to her at almost every turn. A remake could definitely fix some of those issues.

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Gameplay

- This was bar non the hardest FF for me simply to control. In the fixed 3D environment, it's really hard to tell what you can interact with and can't, and it was hard for me to reach the spots I was supposed to reach many times. The controls are often mapped isometrically. I had a lot of frustration simply not realizing where it was possible to walk. Save points and specific trigger spots could often add 5 or so awkward second trying to find just the right spot. I eventually realized this, but there's like a very specific point (marked by a miniscule shadow on the ground) that you have to reach to trigger the Omega Weapon battle, too. Also, this game and FFVII made ATB feel outdated; navigating the menus with time pressure while having this ridiculously cinematic and long animations just felt completely wrong.

- I'm a major hoarder, which made the refining system a nightmare for me. This is a personal issue maybe, but permanently losing spells and whatnot always sucks and discouraged my experimentation.

- Speaking of not liking experimentation - didn't like the limit break system this game, unfortunately. I just have too much anxiety to leave my characters at low health hoping a limit break will come. I don't even remember what Irvine, Selphie, and Quistis's limit breaks were. Other than Squall pulling the trigger, this meant that a character was almost entirely defined by their junctions to me. I missed the consistent way you could unleash limit breaks in FFVII, where I got at least to see everyone's.

- The junction system is pretty cool overall, probably my favorite part about the gameplay - though the non-regenerative spells made for a bit of an unfun tradeoff. Sadly, I also felt like GFs were a suboptimal play so that I wound up no longer using them fairly early into the game - I simply didn't have enough junctionable spots to justify it anymore. Maybe a nicer way of limiting than limiting spells and how many commands you could junction to each character would have been to limit the number of GFs you could junction per character? That would really have diversified the game when switching party members.

- If I didn't know about how the game handled enemy leveling, I guess I never would have been bothered by it, but I did think it was a little sad that you couldn't buy more and more weapons and especially armor all the time. I always enjoy the rather uncreative routine of discovering a new town and then buying up the new equipment and armor there - those force you to make choices occasionally (who to give the best armor to; who should get which amulets) that seem lower-stakes than junctioning GFs and commands.

- I wish the card game were more... integrated?... into the game. When I said "sidequest mode time," I started playing the card game. But rules like Random made me just want to quit. I think it's really cool that people play cards all the time, but the fact that you can beat the game without playing cards and not even think about it - hell, I almost did it, and up until I wrote this bullet point, I'd entirely forgotten about playing it - is just really disappointing! Collecting cards/playing the card game is like collecting Pokemon and battling trainers, but at least in Pokemon you're forced into a few random encounters and trainer battles!
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The card game is a lot more satisfying if you play it the entire game instead of cramming it all in at the end. I'm fine with it being optional for people who don't want to mess with it. Having mandatory sections for otherwise optional stuff always kinda annoys me (looking at you, FFIX).

I almost feel like you have to stumble your way through FFVIII once to figure out how you want to play it, and then it opens up on a replay when you know what you're doing.

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Leonhart4 posted...

I almost feel like you have to stumble your way through FFVIII once to figure out how you want to play it, and then it opens up on a replay when you know what you're doing.

i can see this. there's so much to it and so many ways to customize. but for a first and only time through, it felt like i needed to play by guide!
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shane15 posted...

Sadly we'll never see it because everyone is obsessed with 7.

Yo let's leave it that way.

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SeabassDebeste posted...

Collecting cards/playing the card game is like collecting Pokemon and battling trainers, but at least in Pokemon you're forced into a few random encounters and trainer battles!

yeah...but thats the point of those games lol

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I would be down for a full Triple Triad RPG.

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So for plot/world... I think FFVIII had some really good stuff going for it, and a lot of bad stuff. It clearly wants to be a story about friendship and love, but there just wasn't enough writing behind that to support it, and the orphanage/destiny/GFs wiped our memory elements . There's also the inherent ridiculousness of SeeD as a concept; it's somewhat justified by the fact that it was a self-fulfilling loop, but overall I was left wanting.

I mentioned this during the game, but FFVIII is a game of great set pieces and bad connective tissue. Galbadia as a whole, the orphanage storyline, and Adel/Ultimecia (as @andylt pointed out) were all lacking in execution. But then you've got the first dance, the train heist, the assassination attempt on Edea, the prison break, the battle of the Gardens, the Seifer battles, the "Eyes on Me" sequence, a bunch of great Laguna parts, and a pretty neat final boss. I just wish the game containing these great set pieces were more consistently developed. I think the game gave us a hint at how cool it could be in the Esthar portion, once we finally (mostly) abandoned the Galbadia/sorceress storyline and got Ragnarok, but there was so little story left at that point that it's hard to credit it as much.

I'm not sure how much of the relative tedium of the game should be attributed to the graphics/soundtrack experience. I already talked about my issues with the visuals - it was hard to control and to tell what enemy was selected in battle, and overall that's just frustrating. It is visually much more impressive than its immediate predecessor (maybe because it's the HD remaster?), but arguably the block graphics have more charm (and sprites definitely beat out these models).

More importantly, in a Square RPG, I'm generally expecting some super-memorable leitmotifs. I don't remember any individual character's theme, and probably most damningly, the Balamb Garden and Overworld themes are way below average for the series. These are by far (along with the so-so, but not bad, battle theme) the most heard tracks of the game. Maybe I develop a stronger bond with the game if it's just a little more accessible music- and controls-wise.
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Hard disagree on the music, but I agree there's a lot of "flaw" to the game probably oweing to its ambition and scope.

I still think squall is way more interesting than your typical upbeat protag! When he's lying in bed thinking himself and his reputation, it really makes him so much more self-aware than most rpg stories ever portray their characters. I guess that's what good introspection does.

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As far as the graphics go I get how they don't age as well, but their detailed animations are really impressive for the time. Sprites look awesome but theres no "directing" shots and camera angles that make the ps1 games feel far more cinematic. The presentation is top-notch for a ps1 game.

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The soundtrack is fantastic, one of the best in the series, but FFVIII doesn't actually have individual character themes. Rinoa comes the closest because "My Mind" plays in a lot of important scenes she's in, but that's it.

And yes, some of my favorite scenes are just Squall lying on his bed wrestling with his thoughts. The main conflict is internal, which is why Ultimecia isn't that important. Squall doesn't care who she is. He just knows she needs to be stopped, and that's enough for him.

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Yeah I think its fitting that the game has little interest in expanding the greater lore. It could have instead used that to really deepen every character connection though.

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Yeah, there are some missed opportunities for character development, for sure. I think they do a good job of fleshing out each character's personality. They just don't do enough with them.

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I agree with most of your criticisms about the plot/world, there's so many great setpieces but the connecting tissue isn't always strong and on the whole it can be a bit clunky. The biggest weakness for me is the lack of development for the main characters, a lot of games get away with ridiculous plots because of party chemistry but outside of Squall/Rinoa the others might as well disappear after Disc 1/2. A proper remake could help this game so much!

As for the graphics, I haven't played the remaster but I've heard that the backgrounds not being updated as much as the character models can make things pretty jarring. A lot of people hate the models but I think there's way more personality here than with 7's lego blocks, and the large variety of body language they fit in is very impressive. I still think the cutscenes hold up really well for a 21 year old game too. Like, insanely well, cinematography and everything. At the time this stuff was mindblowing, the merging of cutscenes and gameplay can be shaky (literally) but so fun imo, and the cutscenes are such a massive step up from 7. I still watch the Waltz For the Moon scene and Edea's Parade randomly sometimes.

SeabassDebeste posted...

I don't remember any individual character's theme

That's because none of them have one! The only named character theme in VIII is Julia, and the only themes the game riffs on constantly are Eyes on Me and Fithos Lusec. I agree about the overworld and battle theme but I love pretty much the rest of the soundtrack, Balamb included. Everybody loves Machine Gun/Extreme/Liberi Fatali/Eyes on Me/FH but I love all the tiny themes too.

Possibly my fav underrated track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PQHM9UnX4

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I don't like the artstyle of the HD version I can say that much. Haven't actually played it myself to see how it "feels" live yet though.

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Presentation and atmosphere are big reasons FFVIII is my favorite game. It knocks that out of the park.

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LeonhartFour posted...

Presentation and atmosphere are big reasons FFVIII is my favorite game. It knocks that out of the park.

Wasnt it FFX at some point?

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He came to his senses

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redrocket posted...

Wasnt it FFX at some point?

I mean, if I'm speaking objectively, I'd probably say FFX is the better game, but I know if it ever came down to a contest vote or something, I'd never be able to vote against FFVIII.

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8 and X are interchangeable favorites for me so I get that.

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aw yeah go my FFX/VIII alliance

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everyone's comments are kind of getting at what i mean about forming bonds to FFVIII. the cutscenes are cinematic and gorgeous, for sure. but those camera angles are cumbersome during regular play and the cinematics can make actual battles a lot more tedious! similarly, FFVIII has some amazing tracks... but they're the ones that are played less, not more. man with the machine gun and fisherman's horizon are all-timers, but they're the only ones that are consistent.

for now, i think i have:

6 (emulated SNES) > 7 (switch port) > 8 (switch port) >= 4 (DS port emulated)
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Haven't commented much here but I followed this throughout, congrats on finishing and thanks for a really fun read!

SeabassDebeste posted...

6 (emulated SNES) > 7 (switch port) > 8 (switch port) >= 4 (DS port emulated)

This order is exactly in line with my thoughts, and I think IX and X are the best in the series. Hope you continue and do those next!

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Sounds like you just needed to use Limit Breaks more to better appreciate the cinematic aspects of the battle system!

And not being frequently played doesn't make the OST worse! Some of the best songs in the series only pop up once or twice!

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I love FF8 but it is a flawed game, I get why you have problems with the aspects you do. I always found the static backgrounds gorgeous during regular play, and the fixed camera gave it an artistic flair that was lost with the transition to FFX style movement. Though I did play it with a Prima guide as a kid and I do remember it being awkward to see where you could move sometimes. Did it not have a toggle for putting arrows on exits like 7 does? I don't remember one.

Any idea what you'll play next?

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No, there was no FINGER?! in FFVII, but FFIX has something like it.

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Giggsalot posted...

Haven't commented much here but I followed this throughout, congrats on finishing and thanks for a really fun read!

thanks! it took... a little longer than i'd hoped, but i'm glad i finished!

Leonhart4 posted...

Sounds like you just needed to use Limit Breaks more to better appreciate the cinematic aspects of the battle system!

well if the game didn't require me to LIVE ON THE EDGE to get these, then i would have! i did enjoy using renzozuken and duel when i could.

andylt posted...

Any idea what you'll play next?

thinking FFIX... it does come next sequentially...!
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I told you to get Aura spells!

And with proper junctions, even staying in yellow HP isn't really "living on the edge."

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Seifer must be a fan of shitty movies because that production was troubled.

And good thing none of the party members saw it and been like "Laguna? The guy who played X in that movie about a sorceress?"

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Good luck with IX! We may end up both simultaneously doing IX playthroughs depending on how fast you get through it lol. If not I will eagerly await your X playthrough.

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Well, it was clearly a low budget movie, so I doubt it reached a wide audience! Seifer must be a secret cinephile.

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seifer does seem like a man of culture
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or at least a hipster who brags about seeing the movie no one else has seen

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he was in the same orphanage as the rest of them, you'd think they all would've seen it like it was one of the four movies they had there to watch over and over or something

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Maybe the GFs made them all forget they saw it

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We all grew up in the same movie theater, LOL!

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