Current Events > C/D: The Mandalorian is the best Star Wars since the OT [SPOILERS]

(+) Yeah! (+)

SquirtleSkwad posted...

Clone Wars has had more creative leeway than any other project in the SW universe. That's not exactly fair.

The Mandalorian could absolutely be one of the best Star Wars projects since the Original Trilogy, if it would drop the episodic style of storytelling and focus on the main-narrative. It's 5 episodes of "story of the week" and 3 episodes of "serialized TV show."

The story structure is messy and a shared complaint I've seen since Episode 2 of this season was that it really needs to focus on it's main plot. It reminds me of Justified Season 1.

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InhumaneRaider posted...

The Mandalorian could absolutely be one of the best Star Wars projects since the Original Trilogy, if it would drop the episodic style of storytelling and focus on the main-narrative. It's 5 episodes of "story of the week" and 3 episodes of "serialized TV show."

The story structure is messy and a shared complaint I've seen since Episode 2 of this season was that it really needs to focus on it's main plot. It reminds me of Justified Season 1.

I'm actually 100% with you there. I have had enough of the "Oh let's help this colony on this planet for crucial story info" for about....this whole second season."

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InhumaneRaider posted...

Fuck no. Clone Wars and it's not even close.

The Mandalorian needs an essential episode recut when it's over. But there's so much filler, it's not even funny.

I wish it were more serialized too (though I have liked some of the sidequesting) but...isnt Clone Wars 70% filler? Thats why Ive had such a hard time getting into it.

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I heard someone describe this show as a 'Space Western'

Is that accurate?

PowerOats posted...

I heard someone describe this show as a 'Space Western'

Is that accurate?

Yeah it is

I would say The Clone Wars is, but The Mandalorian is certainly close.

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DarthAragorn posted...

Yeah it is

Yep, it reminds me of Firefly sometimes.

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It's aggressively ok. It just feels like a masterpiece compared to the recent movies. Lots of video games have given us better experiences.
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Shablagoo posted...

I wish it were more serialized too (though I have liked some of the sidequesting) but...isnt Clone Wars 70% filler? Thats why Ive had such a hard time getting into it.

70% is a conservative estimate. And much of the rest of it is really silly. Like, pretty much anything dealing with Darth Maul or the Force is reeeeally bad.

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StarReaper13 posted...

I don't remember much from prequels aside from the parts that are used as memes tbh

Uhh.....

Every single last second of the prequels are used as memes.
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within live action yup but i personally put clone wars above mandalorian

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Clone Wars later seasons are better, but Mando is far superior to that garbage excuse they call the ST.
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I always find it amusing how people can say out loud "this other series is better if you ignore half of it".

I'm not sure people realize how the concept of "better series" works.

Just as I'm not sure Gob understands the concept of "science fiction".

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CyricZ posted...

Just as I'm not sure Gob understands the concept of "science fiction".

Elitism isn't going to get you anywhere. Science Fiction, as a broad category, is anything having to do with: very advanced technology, alien life on other planets, other galaxies, etc.

"Hard" sci-fi is probably what you're thinking of, which is usually based in 'real' society with realistic and detailed technological advancements that coincide with radical changes in society (for better or worse)... but sci-fi in general includes such things as space-opera, space fantasy, etc.

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Neat. You do have a basic understanding.

Star Wars is a fantasy set in space.

It's not about ticking off a list (future, technology, planets). It's about the themes and concepts.

Star Wars is conceptually a fantasy. There are knights and wizards and princesses and magic. It's a poor farm boy rising to become a mythical hero.

I adore everything about Star Wars as a universe, but I'm not going to pretend it's "science fiction" in an attempt to, I don't even know what you're trying to do, "legitimize" it?

Also Mandalorian is a western.

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hahahahahhahaha

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If I can make the Trent happy once a day, I know it's a good day.

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No. This second season has been abysmal outside of this last episode. It's not even taking a slow-burn approach and one of the episodes, he says, paraphrasing, "Well, we can't continue our mission yet, let's go see what's going on with our friends!"

It needs to kill the episodic structure it currently has and start focusing on a main plot.

The Clone Wars is the best Star Wars Media I've seen in the past few years, primarily because it just expands on the prequel lore, so the some of the episodic episodes were fine.

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MikeG posted...

The Clone Wars is the best Star Wars Media I've seen in the past few years, primarily because it just expands on the prequel lore, so the some of the episodic episodes were fine.

95% of Clone Wars was episodic and that's being generous. Doesn't make it bad; after all it was meant to be an anthology series.

I just challenge the idea of "it's episodic so it's bad, why can't we have a main flowing story arc" and then bring up Clone Wars as a counterpoint.

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CyricZ posted...

95% of Clone Wars was episodic and that's being generous. Doesn't make it bad; after all it was meant to be an anthology series.

I just challenge the idea of "it's episodic so it's bad, why can't we have a main flowing story arc" and then bring up Clone Wars as a counterpoint.

In reality, The Clone Wars wasn't really appreciated by the fanbase until around the end of Season 2, going onward to Season 3. But it's episodic nature and storytelling were far more mature and all around well told. But as I said, The Clone Wars just had better storytelling and was expanding on lore pre-empire.

The issue with Rebels and The Mandalorian, is the fact that their episodic narratives, suck, however, when the focus is on the main plot, they're both really good shows. It's the simple fact that they have some many places for the narrative to go, yet The Mandalorian keep doing trash-ass monsters, bases, gang of the week with shallow story bits, and it's just bad.

Rebels and Mandalorian are in the same basket when it comes to it's episodic narratives, and that's the plain fact of they just suck at it. When Rebels was good, it was really fucking good. When Mandalorian is good, it's really good.

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"The Clone Wars is better, now here's a reference sheet outlining the 80% of the series that you should skip"

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Yeah I hear a lot about how "Clone Wars is mature" when really what people are saying is that "Clone Wars was violent". Clones getting cut down wholesale in battle scenes, dismemberment, etc.

The most mature Clone Wars ever got was when it was discussing the clones themselves, their purpose, and their expendability. Like actually discussing it. In dialogue. Not just putting clones in a battle scene and having 90% of them die for dramatic effect so the heroes knew how serious this week's episode was.

Rebels, in comparison, addressed a lot of the hardships of growing up and actually followed through towards character maturity. Yes, Ezra had plenty of times when he's an insufferable twit, but he had a long path with things like reconciling his own light and darkness. What was right versus what was easy. Trying to learn in a situation where someone's not entirely equipped to properly teach you. Dealing with loss. Learning what sacrifice really is.

Other than that, I don't have anything to respond to "they suck at it". You're not really giving me much to work with. If you didn't like it, that's fine, but if you want to debate it, you'll have to go a little deeper.

EDIT: And Mandalorian (since it's the point of the topic I guess I should address it) is about a journey of self-discovery and about parenthood. Djarin is learning what kind of person he is under the armor and Grogu is bringing that out of him. It's also not over yet, so it's tough to say whether these episodes where it seems little is happening to drive the main arc are important or not.

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"Expanding on the lore" is probably the worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars.

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CyricZ posted...

I'm not going to pretend it's "science fiction"

That's okay. Your perception of reality has no influence on the fact that Star Wars is listed as a "space opera," which is a subset of Science Fiction.

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CyricZ posted...

The most mature Clone Wars ever got was when it was discussing the clones themselves, their purpose, and their expendability. Like actually discussing it. In dialogue. Not just putting clones in a battle scene and having 90% of them die for dramatic effect so the heroes knew how serious this week's episode was.

I would go as far as to say they completely chickened out on this and even deviated from George Lucas's original intentions. "All the clones get time off and a paycheque" is goofy as fuck. If we look at the prequels as being intended to show the corruption and flaws of the Republic eating away at the Jedi from the inside, the clones being a slave army is definitely part of that.

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Blightzkrieg posted...

I would go as far as to say they completely chickened out on this

I agree. They absolutely could have gone deeper into this.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

That's okay. Your perception of reality has no influence on the fact that Star Wars is listed as a "space opera," which is a subset of Science Fiction.

Honestly I don't think you're putting any effort into this argument other than "people say it's in this box therefore I'm right".

Given the fact that there's plenty of room in the world for mixed and cross genre works, let me ask a direct question: do you think Star Wars is more sci-fi or more fantasy?

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CyricZ posted...

Yeah I hear a lot about how "Clone Wars is mature" when really what people are saying is that "Clone Wars was violent". Clones getting cut down wholesale in battle scenes, dismemberment, etc.

The most mature Clone Wars ever got was when it was discussing the clones themselves, their purpose, and their expendability. Like actually discussing it. In dialogue. Not just putting clones in a battle scene and having 90% of them die for dramatic effect so the heroes knew how serious this week's episode was.

To be fair, the episodes that got into the politics of the Republic were also fairly adult thematically. They essentially expose a system that, for all it's high minded ideals, is incompetent and is fundamentally corrupt down to it's core. It no longer serves the interests of it's citizens.

The same with the Jedi. Their roles were supposed to be that of advisors and yet they so easily allow themselves to be absorbed into the Republic war machine.

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CyricZ posted...

Yeah I hear a lot about how "Clone Wars is mature" when really what people are saying is that "Clone Wars was violent". Clones getting cut down wholesale in battle scenes, dismemberment, etc.

No, that would be Clone Wars is "dark", "dark" doesn't necessarily mean "mature". And yes, the latter seasons of Clone Wars are some of the more mature pieces of media to come out of Star Wars.

CyricZ posted...

Rebels, in comparison, addressed a lot of the hardships of growing up and actually followed through towards character maturity. Yes, Ezra had plenty of times when he's an insufferable twit, but he had a long path with things like reconciling his own light and darkness. What was right versus what was easy. Trying to learn in a situation where someone's not entirely equipped to properly teach you. Dealing with loss. Learning what sacrifice really is.

Rebels handles character development and interpersonal relationships, very handily, but with it's episodic nature, it's so far and between, that it doesn't really leave an impact.

CyricZ posted...

Other than that, I don't have anything to respond to "they suck at it". You're not really giving me much to work with. If you didn't like it, that's fine, but if you want to debate it, you'll have to go a little deeper.

I mean, someone said it in the topic earlier, but it is a shared complaint, that most of the episodic narratives, are just bad. There's no real stakes in the show outside of the main plot. The only time you feel that someone might actually die was when Moff Gideon was on screen. It's frustrating to go from one episode of main plot focus, to three episodes of "filler" and not really get anything out of it.

The Clone Wars didn't really have anything to tackle in terms of main-plot, it was always just these side adventures that took place during the Prequels. The Mandalorian is building a plot that is supposed to go somewhere significant, so it's jarring as fuck to jump around the system and then have no true impact on the narrative.

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I'm gonna say D because at its core, The Mandalorian is best when it is the least involved with the Star Wars canon. It's supposed to be a Samurai/Ronin serial and when it does that it's phenomenal. When they try to fit it into the larger picture of the Star Wars narrative, it isn't as good.

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MrToothHasYou posted...

I'm gonna say D because at its core, The Mandalorian is best when it is the least involved with the Star Wars canon. It's supposed to be a Samurai/Ronin serial and when it does that it's phenomenal. When they try to fit it into the larger picture of the Star Wars narrative, it isn't as good.

I'll always value Star Wars lore as a cohesive whole, but I can totally respect the opinion of "let Star Wars stories not always have to be STAR WARS all the time".

MikeG posted...

And yes, the latter seasons of Clone Wars are some of the more mature pieces of media to come out of Star Wars.

Again, this leads back to the "this series is better if you ignore half of it" argument. What in particular would you be referring to?

MikeG posted...

There's no real stakes in the show outside of the main plot. The only time you feel that someone might actually die was when Moff Gideon was on screen. It's frustrating to go from one episode of main plot focus, to three episodes of "filler" and not really get anything out of it.

Okay, but if you're tracking "people dying" as an indication of "stakes", to place Clone Wars against that, Clone Wars has almost no stakes because you know over 75% of the main cast is going to survive to Episode III. The fact that in 13 episodes Mandalorian hasn't yet had a meaningful death does not indicate it not having "stakes", especially if you consider stakes beyond death.

The Clone Wars didn't really have anything to tackle in terms of main-plot, it was always just these side adventures that took place during the Prequels. The Mandalorian is building a plot that is supposed to go somewhere significant, so it's jarring as fuck to jump around the system and then have no true impact on the narrative.

I guess that depends on what you define as "significant". Are you looking for something galaxy-shaking, or are you looking for something personally significant to Djarin?

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CyricZ posted...

Again, this leads back to the "this series is better if you ignore half of it" argument. What in particular would you be referring to?

But I'm not making that argument.

CyricZ posted...

Okay, but if you're tracking "people dying" as an indication of "stakes", to place Clone Wars against that, Clone Wars has almost no stakes because you know over 75% of the main cast is going to survive to Episode III. The fact that in 13 episodes Mandalorian hasn't yet had a meaningful death does not indicate it not having "stakes", especially if you consider stakes beyond death.

The difference being exactly that. The Clone Wars just offers side-stories outside of the main plot of the PT and some of the best Star Wars content (imo). The Mandalorian is building a main narrative focused around the Child, post-empire and more. Yet we barely get anything regarding those aspects. You know in these filler episodes, nothing is really going to happen to the child nor The Mandalorian. Yes, the stakes revolve around them. So going into some of these episodes, there's absolutely no stakes.

CyricZ posted...

I guess that depends on what you define as "significant". Are you looking for something galaxy-shaking, or are you looking for something personally significant to Djarin?

I just want them to focus on the damn storyline instead of these side-adventures.

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CyricZ posted...

The fact that in 13 episodes Mandalorian hasn't yet had a meaningful death

This is Newark New Jersey levels bad of a take. Just an absolute cesspit of an opinion. Jesus Christ man. Are you fucking kidding me right now.

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MrToothHasYou posted...

This is Newark New Jersey levels bad of a take. Just an absolute cesspit of an opinion. Jesus Christ man. Are you fucking kidding me right now.

Uhh, A) there's more to that sentence and B) it's really in reference to Mike's claiming of deaths = stakes.

I know there have been deaths in Mandalorian, and yes I personally found them meaningful to the narrative. I just wonder why he's saying there are no stakes because Djarin and Grogu haven't died yet.

I suppose putting quotes around "no meaningful deaths" would have illustrated that better, and for that, I apologize.

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But muh overarching story, I hate filler, when is the show going to stop being about a hardened warrior trying to do right by his son???

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On whether Star Wars is Sci-Fi or Fantasy:

We can make up any definitions of science fiction, fantasy and horror that we want. We can draw our boundaries and make our labels, but in the end it's still the same old story, the one about the human heart in conflict with itself.
The rest my friends is funiture.

The House of Fantasy is built of stone and wood and furnished in High Medieval. Its people travel by horse and galley, fight with sword and spell and battle-axe, communicate by palantir or raven, and break bread with elves and dragons.

The House of Science Fiction is built of duralloy and plastic and furnished in Faux Future. Its people travel by starship and aircar, fight with nukes and tailored germs, communicate by ansible and laser, and break protein bars with aliens.

The House of Horror is built of bone and cobwebs and furnished in Ghastly Gothick. Its people travel only by night, fight with anything that will kill messily, communicate in screams and shrieks and gibbers, and sip blood with vampires and werewolves.

~George R.R. Martin, Dreamsongs

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Well I've only seen 7 eps of Mando but both Clone Wars cartoon series and Rogue 1 are comfortably better than what I've seen so far. I hope it picks up soon.

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