Board 8 > Kotaku Ranks the Legend of Zelda Games

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nuanced opinions on games, what are those. It's either a masterpiece or trash

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Seanchan posted...

I am 100% behind his viewpoint. Wind Waker is hands down the best looking Zelda game. And then everyone thinks about that and forgets how awful the dungeons were. It's bizarre.

Except for Forsaken Fortress the dungeons are fine so I'm not really forgetting anything

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I remember all WW dungeons were good, and Tower of the Gods was great. But the game had the perfect balance of dungeons, overworld activities, and exploration. Not to mention style. No other Zelda since has achieved that. It even had some MM-style mechanics. What more can you ask for?

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Yeah, WW had the weakest dungeons of any 3D Zelda.
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Wind Waker had the best dungeons of any 3D Zelda on average imo. Probably the best Wind Waker dungeons aren't quite as good as the other series greats like OoT Forest Temple or whatever, but there's also not a single stinker like Jabu-Jabu's Belly for example.
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I havent played WW, but its hard to imagine it having the worst dungeons when some LoZ games already have really really bad ones. Actually makes me curious how WWs could be.

I would say Skyward Sword was the best dungeons of the 3D games

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WW's dungeons aren't necessarily bad, they just feel a lot more middle of the road than the other games. They're kinda boring.
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Yeah I guess for me it's a bit different in that I think they're basically all high tier but not best-of-the-best.

I guess Forsaken Fortress 2 is the exception if we're counting that, which I honestly just forgot about.
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Of the 3D LoZs Ive played so far I feel like BotW easily has the most boring dungeons. I havent played MM or SS either though so it could always be dethroned I suppose

It's nice how varied the opinions of the Zelda fanbase are, every game has its supporters and detractors! Everyone goes on about the Divine Beasts being bad but I really enjoyed them and their gimmicks, the only complaint I get is that they all have the same visual style. But a bunch of Zeldas just do the 'forest dungeon fire dungeon water dungeon' etc thing anyway.

I like Wind Waker but agree that its dungeons are low tier among 3D Zeldas, and I haven't played the HD version but you can really feel the cut content in the back half which hurts the game's pacing pretty badly. MM's dungeons aren't great (except Stone Tower) but dungeons aren't that game's focus or primary appeal so it doesn't bother me.

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TP has the best dungeons of the ones I've played and it's not particularly close

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Yeah I guess I would say TP has the highest average of quality dungeons (it even had a good water dungeon!) just the best ones I've played were in SS.

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I count the shrines among BotW's dungeons.
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Yeah idk it's sort of hard to say. Skyward Sword has Ancient Cistern and Sandship which are quite possibly my 2 favorite dungeons in the series, and the rest are also pretty solid for the most part. Wind Waker has the most consistently good dungeons. OoT has some real low points early but is basically non-stop hits after Door of Time. (I should clarify I am not counting Ice Cavern/Bottom of the Well here...)

I'm not a huge fan of TP's dungeons but I am in the minority there. Think my main point of disagreement is City in the Sky which I just don't like at all.
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I generally love the gimmicky non-standard dungeons like Sandship, Snowpeak, Stone Tower, Spirit Temple. Maybe I just like 'S' dungeons.

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TP's dungeons are so boring to me. There's about 3 of them I really enjoyed (Arbiter's Grounds, City in the Sky, and parts of Snowpeak) but the rest of them are bog standard, and some are among my least favorite in the series

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WW was the first time Zelda swordplay was good.

From what I've heard, Fenyx Rising is okay but leaves you thinking "I could've just played BotW instead".

OoT has the worst dungeons, easily.

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the world needs more spider-link

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Wind Waker dungeons are pretty whatever, yeah. They're actually extremely linear aside from the Wind Temple. I'll give some credit to Temple of the Gods, but that's it.

It's been way too long since I played Twilight Princess. Even then, I think I would still give best overall dungeons to Skyward Sword. I just can't stand TP's aesthetics, while I love SS's. I also love the Divine Beasts in BOTW.

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

From what I've heard, Fenyx Rising is okay but leaves you thinking "I could've just played BotW instead".

I had a completely miserable time trying to do all the shrines in BotW and left mostly unfulfilled with its extremely shallow gameplay, vast landscape with absolutely nothing in the majority of it, and obnoxious crafting system it leaned so hard into.

Fenyx was a blast from start to finish. Tons of personality. Tons of unique locations with something interesting around every corner. Easier to navigate. Clever and entertaining story. Great humor. The trials (shrine equivalent) are tons of fun. The battle system is easy to learn, hard to master, and always engaging with fun enemy variety. Fights feel like a challenge and special fights are a big deal that make you feel mighty. Protagonist is actually even remotely interesting.

Like there's so much more going on with Fenyx. The only things that BOTW might do better are the major dungeons, and the final boss is better. Otherwise, Fenyx just removes the obnoxious and boring stuff BOTW to make a more enjoyable experience.

If BOTW was a game without a Zelda coat of paint on it, it wouldn't get nearly as much acclaim as it got, let's be real.

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..So what does this Fenyx Rising game do wrong that gave it such medicore scores from both metacritic and gamefaqs users?

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I had a completely miserable time trying to do all the shrines in BotW and left mostly unfulfilled with its extremely shallow gameplay, vast landscape with absolutely nothing in the majority of it, and obnoxious crafting system it leaned so hard into.

Nintendo's design choices in BotW and Mario Odyssey have hard trained me out of bothering to 100% them. It's very clearly not how they are supposed to be played anymore, unless you are super addicted.

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Don't ask me. Best I can figure is "not Zelda".

Like people complained that you can mark your map for actually useful chests and powerups and it takes away from the exploration while at the same time praising BOTW because you wander around aimlessly and do the same tired tower fights that let you open up a chest that has a worthless rusty sword you'll immediately throw away.

Just bizarre comparisons and critiques that just ignore what a disaster of design BOTW has sometimes. I threw away like 90% of shit I found in chests and cursed myself for wasting time engaging in an identical fight over and over to get it. So yeah, good for you. At least you explored something and got to see a cool landscape. But at least in Fenyx you explore something, see a cool landscape, and actually get something useful.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Nintendo's design choices in BotW and Mario Odyssey have hard trained me out of bothering to 100% them. It's very clearly not how they are supposed to be played anymore, unless you are super addicted.

It's not even that with Breath of the Wild. It's "I walked a mile and climbed a giant mountain and this looks cool and all but I also got an apple for my trouble, or a seed to get 1/25 of my way to get a new slot for a sword I'll never use."

At least in Fenyx you get to see cool stuff (arguably cooler) and actually get something useful too.

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Fenyx Rising got way worse reviews than Genshin Impact too, so even among BotW clones it got a lot of apathy. "Not Zelda" clearly isn't the only reason!
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Fenyx Rising has got that really obnoxious Dreamworks-esque aesthetic to it. cringey.

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What kind of stuff does IPR reward you with?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Nintendo's design choices in BotW and Mario Odyssey have hard trained me out of bothering to 100% them. It's very clearly not how they are supposed to be played anymore, unless you are super addicted.

It's worse than that because both games punish you for trying to do 100%, or even 75%. The vast majority of collectibles in both are boring grinds with no charm or surprise. The game laughs at you for expecting a return on your time investment. Compare to SMG2 where literally 100% of stars (and even like 80% of green stars) were A+ experiences.

It's also strange how 2 open world games that give you so much freedom and options end up being completely terrible unless you play them a specific way and it's your fault if you play it wrong.

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I'm just glad I play open world games the right way

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Waluigi1 posted...

What kind of stuff does IPR reward you with?

Upgrades for literally everything you can upgrade. Weapons, health, potion upgrades, skill tree upgrades, stamina upgrades.

A bunch of funny or interesting lore being told if you find one of the many, many areas that offer it.

Even if you max out any of these upgrades, you can still collect stuff to give you additional bonuses and buffs when you collect more of them.

Not to mention interesting huge battles with mythical creatures (many of which act like huge versions of enemies in the games, but with added attacks, health, etc.).

You never feel like you waste your time going anywhere.

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Playing Links Awakening for the first time ever (Switch version though Ive never played the original) and its pretty fucking great. Im only halfway through, but this is already far more enjoyable than the last few LoZ games I played (1, 2 and BotW)

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

If BOTW was a game without a Zelda coat of paint on it, it wouldn't get nearly as much acclaim as it got, let's be real.

Yeah, but it is a game that has the Zelda aesthetic and that goes a long way. It's one of the things that make Nintendo games the way they are. They just have a certain brand and aesthetic that few other series can replicate and it absolutely makes the game a lot more enjoyable than a copycat would.

BOTW is probably my favorite Zelda game and I'm not really big into most open-world games. I do think BOTW deserves credit with how it starts you off. I love tutorial island and the first adventure out into the world. It does get a little same-y after beating all the Divine Beasts, though.

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ninkendo posted...

TP has the highest average of quality dungeons (it even had a good water dungeon!) just the best ones I've played were in SS.

bruh SS had the greatest water dungeon of all time

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TP has high highs and low lows with its dungeons. Like the middle bunch are great but the rest are bland to awful imo!

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andylt posted...

TP has high highs and low lows with its dungeons.

I think this is an appropriate way to describe Skyward Sword as a whole, which is probably why I'm still partial to it. I'm not super annoyed digging through crap if it means I unearth a gem (Ancient Cistern, Sandship, really the entire desert area) along the way.

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swordz9 posted...

Playing Links Awakening for the first time ever (Switch version though Ive never played the original) and its pretty fucking great. Im only halfway through, but this is already far more enjoyable than the last few LoZ games I played (1, 2 and BotW)

hell yeah. Game Boy Zelda is the pinnacle of 2D Zelda, and maybe even the entire franchise.

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pjbasis posted...

hell yeah. Game Boy Zelda is the pinnacle of 2D Zelda, and maybe even the entire franchise.

This is so true
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NintendoLife has aggregated many Zelda rankings lists to create an overall Top Ten

1.) Breath of the Wild
2.) Ocarina of Time
3.) A Link to the Past
4.) The Wind Waker
5.) Majoras Mask
6.) Links Awakening
7.) A Link Between Worlds
8.) Twilight Princess
9.) The Legend of Zelda
10.) The Minish Cap

I can live with that

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/02/feature_we_worked_out_the_best_zelda_game_once_and_for_all_using_maths
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I think this is an appropriate way to describe Skyward Sword as a whole, which is probably why I'm still partial to it. I'm not super annoyed digging through crap if it means I unearth a gem (Ancient Cistern, Sandship, really the entire desert area) along the way.

Yeah I've maintained that Skyward Sword is among the best and worst Zeldas for this reason! Though to be fair, the dungeons are all solid at worst. The bad parts are uh...in all the other parts of the game.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Yeah I've maintained that Skyward Sword is among the best and worst Zeldas for this reason! Though to be fair, the dungeons are all solid at worst. The bad parts are uh...in all the other parts of the game.

this has always been my feeling on Skyward Sword

it does a lot of real great with some real high-points of the series but then it just also has the dumbest flaws that shouldn't exist

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I'm not super annoyed digging through crap if it means I unearth a gem (Ancient Cistern, Sandship, really the entire desert area) along the way.

I used to think this but I still couldn't get through BOTW. I knew there were gems in there and I encountered some, but I still didn't want to dig through the rest the giant map. I think there's a critical ratio of fluff to gems that is necessary to keep the momentum.

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foolm0r0n posted...

It's worse than that because both games punish you for trying to do 100%, or even 75%. The vast majority of collectibles in both are boring grinds with no charm or surprise. The game laughs at you for expecting a return on your time investment. Compare to SMG2 where literally 100% of stars (and even like 80% of green stars) were A+ experiences.

It's also strange how 2 open world games that give you so much freedom and options end up being completely terrible unless you play them a specific way and it's your fault if you play it wrong.

With regards to SMO, are you talking about how to reach the pointless number 999 moons, it requires you to purchase a bunch from the shops?

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I remember Odyssey getting pretty bad even before that, just unlocking the final postgame levels is a super grind because you've already played all the worlds they just tossed several hundred more moons into.

Odyssey's main game is incredible for the most part but after that it really starts wearing out its welcome.

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Disagree, the postgame moons are great! You only need like 500 to unlock the last levels and there's so many around, I would absolutely not call it a 'super grind'.

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I also disagree

Of the 880 unique Moons I was happy to collect like 95% of them

Looking up the best way to grind coins to buy 119 more Moons and all the costumes kind of stunk but thats for obsessives anyway
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Waluigi1 posted...

With regards to SMO, are you talking about how to reach the pointless number 999 moons, it requires you to purchase a bunch from the shops?

No, mainly that the vast majority of moons are the equivalent to coins or a 1-up in other Mario games. They are so inconsequential, littered around everywhere that you can't help but lose interest in them. Koroks are the same, like blue rupees in previous games. And that thoughtless quantity over quality became the main level design focus of the games.

Unlocking a few hundred more moons at the end of the game is a serious slap in the face too. What a waste of time.

I remember getting 250 moons and being rewarded with.... a god awful boss rush. Some of the levels after that were cool though.

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>Botw #1, MM above OoT and in top 5, ALttP in top 5

nice

>Zelda 2 second to last

not nice

Overall a respectable list from Kotaku. Seeing the Oracles (or even an Oracles game) in top 5 is a very rare sight in this fandom, definitely the most surprising of the list imo.

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We really need to have the Oracle games re-released or remastered ala Link's Awakening.

I'd like to play them again but I don't feel like dragging my old Game Boy out.

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they did put them out on the 3DS virtual console

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