Poll of the Day > 6 Dr. Seuss books to stop being published due to racist depictions

(+) Yeah! (+)

Mead posted...

yet you posted so many other words

"I get why this is offensive, but... why is this offensive?"

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Which is the first real example of propaganda mentioned >_> Offhand, I can't recall if Seuss did any real political cartooning. Or maybe it's just a matter of the hidden messaging in Green Eggs & Ham, The Cat in the Hat, Oh the Places You'll Go, and How the Grinch Stole Christmas (that last one has some serious social messaging relevant to the modern day). Even the Lorax is more social than political... and hilariously subverted through its usage now.

He did but it was mainly WWII stuff. When we were fighting against Japan. I remember one poster which had a bunch of Japanese-americans getting bombs to suicide-bomb the Japanese. The dude was racist there's no doubt.

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JigsawTDC posted...

but what do you expect from someome who cries about the cUlTuRaL mArXiSm boogeyman.

You think intercapping it is some kind of smart pwn, but we've literally reached the point of going after the Four Olds in America now.

Call it whatever you like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds?wprov=sfla1

Full stop.

This is quite literally the point we're at culturally, so what then shall I call it? What newspeak treadmill shall I walk now to get my point across to satisfy you?


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God people are stupid. 'Racist' has become one of least favorite words.

Pretty much they want the state to do thinking for you
or they want certain religions to have authority rather than the laws of the country they themselves live in

it mostly has to do with censorship, body/orientation shaming shenanigans
people who are susceptible to this stuff freak out when you give them psychadelics because they always need to be in control of everything, so if they're obsessively doubtful after psychadelics they're obsessively creative in how they doubt things

basically someone can have a sort of obsessive tick, but if that tick is expressed as depression/pessimism they become obsessively pessimistic tickful
rather than the person who jus can't control a certain action

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LuciferSage posted...

You think intercapping it is some kind of smart pwn, but we've literally reached the point of going after the Four Olds in America now.

Call it whatever you like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds?wprov=sfla1

Full stop.

This is quite literally the point we're at culturally, so what then shall I call it? What newspeak treadmill shall I walk now to get my point across to satisfy you?

Since we're using Wikipedia articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory

You're deluded if you think we're going after the "Four Olds" in America. Our cultural is predicated on completely different values than China.

You do realize you're substantiating his paranoia with a wiki article ??

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the four olds is why chinese people don't have a sense of identity today
why they do weird chinese medicines still that don't make any sense

they pretty much used communism/marxism to forget about buddism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

which is why they are so opposed to free tibet
they don't want people to draw parallels with their neighbors...

teaching someone how to think/analyze is much worse to them then showing someone what to do

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JigsawTDC posted...

Since we're using Wikipedia articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory

You're deluded if you think we're going after the "Four Olds" in America. Our cultural is predicated on completely different values than China.

Don't trust your lying eyes: the post.

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Oh cool, were pretty deep into bananatown

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I was too tired last night to respond to this properly, but:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/01/us/loudoun-county-public-schools-virginia-dr-seuss/index.html
https://reimaginingmigration.org/dr-seuss-political-cartoons/
... Seuss did a cartoon about taking home n-words for labor, not included in the links here. So, yeah. *shrug*

And to put this all in context:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/books/banned-books-lgbtq.html

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Unbridled9 posted...

Like, they were complaining that the Karate Kid didn't have an asian teaching martial arts

Mr. Miyagi?

pionear posted...

Mr. Miyagi?

No. The new series stuff. Cobra Kai.

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Mead posted...

Oh cool, were pretty deep into bananatown

usually par for the course when whiskey shows up to be racist

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Unbridled9 posted...

No. The new series stuff. Cobra Kai.

Oh so you meant Cobra Kai, and not The Karate Kid like you stupidly said

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And whiskey will not acknowledge that he has been proven wrong definitively regarding at least one point of his misinformation tantrum.

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Pfft he wont even acknowledge his stupid ass idea that farmers should starve out the city folk by not sending them grain

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Oh look, if it isn't the mean girls clique here to talk shit.

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raise your hand if you've ever been personally victimized by Regina George

*sigh*

I'll be honest here. I feel like, for me, the real issue is that this feels like a situation in which there is no middle ground. Lots of books no longer get published for various reasons so acting like some of his books aren't getting published anymore isn't something... that should be that big a deal. Yet it feels like it's a line-draw and people who got something, anything, positive from Dr. Seuss and his works are being put in a position where they may have to defend things they don't like and don't agree with because it's Dr. Seuss or throw out all the good and positive things they got from books like How the Grinch Stole Christmas because of some PC purity test being applied to a book that was written before some of these peoples parents/grandparents were born. Even if you limited it to just those books it feels like, once again, your choices are complete condemnation or becoming a racist with no middle ground... just because of a bad bit in an entire book. A HUGE part of me wants to say that these depictions are bad and wrong; but I don't agree with censorship meaning I simply don't know what to actually DO about this beyond just no longer publishing the books.

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Unbridled9 posted...

Yet it feels like it's a line-draw and people who got something, anything, positive from Dr. Seuss and his works are being put in a position where they may have to defend things they don't like and don't agree with because it's Dr. Seuss or throw out all the good and positive things they got from books like How the Grinch Stole Christmas because of some PC purity test being applied to a book that was written before some of these peoples parents/grandparents were born.

this is 100% bullshit and not what is happening

read the fucking article

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RoboXgp89 posted...

every single anti-war cartoon about ww2 is racist by this standard
you don't see a chinese man in a book and think that people look like cartoon characters

like is the jackie chan cartoon now considered racist?

I'm 99% certain Jackie Chan will start randomly beating the shit out of as many people possible if someone tries to cancel his cartoon out of existence. He loves his cartoon.

I can't get over how overly ironic PC culture is. Every effort to curb racism results in direct acts of racism. It's like how there was an uproar over Apu running a convenience store. It's like you're telling every single Indian person out there that it's shameful to run your own store because you're perpetuating a stereotype. And now they've banned white voice actors from voicing black characters...Like how in the hell is that not just blatant racism? It's all so absurd.

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Zeus posted...

Offhand, I can't recall if Seuss did any real political cartooning.

You can't recall if one of the most famous political cartoonists in history did any real political cartooning? Man, if only you had access to some sort of tool or engine that would allow you to search through a vast repository of human knowledge - then you might find a near-complete collection of his actual political cartoons to peruse, along with many articles describing his history of political cartooning and how it carried forward and influenced his work on children's books.

Actually, I think I can understand why you wouldn't do that; you might come across cartoons like this:

https://twitter.com/beschlossdc/status/1346606007997370371

Or this:

https://twitter.com/nickkristof/status/989286766912950272

Or this:

https://twitter.com/artsy/status/845751149579964418

Or these:

https://twitter.com/BrentAllpress/status/1276993713563037696

...and you might realize how ahead of his time Seuss really was.

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VideoboysaysCube posted...

And now they've banned white voice actors from voicing black characters

have they though

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SavageGlum100 posted...

I'm 99% certain Jackie Chan will start randomly beating the shit out of as many people possible if someone tries to cancel his cartoon out of existence. He loves his cartoon.

I really liked that cartoon too as a kid. When I was younger I liked Jade the most because kid; but as I grew older I liked Uncle and Taru more for their wisdom and knowledge/reformation and turn to the good guys.

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Unbridled9 posted...

I really liked that cartoon too as a kid.

I think it is pretty much universally liked by anyone that watched it.

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jackie chan supports the ccp :)

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Unbridled9 posted...

He did but it was mainly WWII stuff. When we were fighting against Japan. I remember one poster which had a bunch of Japanese-americans getting bombs to suicide-bomb the Japanese. The dude was racist there's no doubt.

For what it's worth, Seuss repeatedly apologized for his anti-Japanese propaganda in the 1940s. He actually was quite passionate about anti-racism overall - take this cartoon, for instance:

https://twitter.com/brianjayjones/status/896545502245900288

...or the famous story of The Sneetches, which was pretty much an anti-racism message in kids packaging. Seuss was staunchly leftist, yet he considered the Japanese in America to be a mortal threat during WW2. With the benefit of hindsight, he did realize that he had been wrong and over the course of his life would come to regard those cartoons as his biggest mistake. He visited Japan in 1953 and Horton Hears a Who!, which was published the following year, was dedicated to a man he met in Kyoto during his visit.

Are there depictions in his other books that use racist stereotypes? By today's standards, absolutely - several of them have been posted in this thread already. But by the standards of the day? Those were considered clean as a whistle. Hell, you can see similar depictions in contemporaneous Disney movies from the "savage Indians" of Peter Pan (1953), the Siamese cats of Lady and the Tramp (1955), or Dumbo (1941) that literally features a character named "Jim Crow" who is a caricature of a black man.

This calls to mind the age-old question of whether or not its fair to judge someone by modern day social standards who never lived to see them? Shakespeare was a playwright of almost unparalleled skill... and a virulent anti-semite. Abraham Lincoln ended slavery... while also claiming that black people could never be equal to white people and would never be considered such. Do we judge those people by actions that would be considered horrifically racist today or do we view them through the lens of social mores at the time?

Seuss was very progressive for his day, so it's not hard to imagine that if he'd lived to see 2021, he'd probably have reformed his work even further. He might even agree with ceasing publications on these specific works as a result. I'm not sure it's fair to call him a racist when, by the standards of the era he lived and wrote his books in, he was anything but.

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LuciferSage posted...

Oh look, if it isn't the mean girls clique here to talk shit.

It's not shit talk if it's true.

You said Boston schools were phasing out advanced classes, which is untrue.

Yet, rather than acknowledge the counterpoint and evidence provided, you went on to make up some Q-Anon-level bullshit about how this Seuss news item correlates to the Four Olds, which is a tenuous comparison at best.

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Far-Queue posted...

It's not shit talk if it's true.

You said Boston schools were phasing out advanced classes, which is untrue.

Yet, rather than acknowledge the counterpoint and evidence provided, you went on to make up some Q-Anon-level bullshit about how this Seuss news item correlates to the Four Olds, which is a tenuous comparison at best.

On the other hand, I never took a hammer to my face because I was mad at my chin, so there's that.

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darkknight109 posted...

For what it's worth, Seuss repeatedly apologized for his anti-Japanese propaganda in the 1940s. He actually was quite passionate about anti-racism overall - take this cartoon, for instance:

https://twitter.com/brianjayjones/status/896545502245900288

...or the famous story of The Sneetches, which was pretty much an anti-racism message in kids packaging. Seuss was staunchly leftist, yet he considered the Japanese in America to be a mortal threat during WW2. With the benefit of hindsight, he did realize that he had been wrong and over the course of his life would come to regard those cartoons as his biggest mistake. He visited Japan in 1953 and Horton Hears a Who!, which was published the following year, was dedicated to a man he met in Kyoto during his visit.

Are there depictions in his other books that use racist stereotypes? By today's standards, absolutely - several of them have been posted in this thread already. But by the standards of the day? Those were considered clean as a whistle. Hell, you can see similar depictions in contemporaneous Disney movies from the "savage Indians" of Peter Pan (1953), the Siamese cats of Lady and the Tramp (1955), or Dumbo (1941) that literally features a character named "Jim Crow" who is a caricature of a black man.

This calls to mind the age-old question of whether or not its fair to judge someone by modern day social standards who never lived to see them? Shakespeare was a playwright of almost unparalleled skill... and a virulent anti-semite. Abraham Lincoln ended slavery... while also claiming that black people could never be equal to white people and would never be considered such. Do we judge those people by actions that would be considered horrifically racist today or do we view them through the lens of social mores at the time?

Seuss was very progressive for his day, so it's not hard to imagine that if he'd lived to see 2021, he'd probably have reformed his work even further. He might even agree with ceasing publications on these specific works as a result. I'm not sure it's fair to call him a racist when, by the standards of the era he lived and wrote his books in, he was anything but.

Certainly an age-old question that I doubt will ever truly be answered. We're probably saying and doing things now that will be taken as some form of -ist in 50 or so years that we don't even think about today. I am, and always will be, of the opinion that it's better to at least understand people as the product of their time and setting; though that doesn't necessitate them getting a free pass. Then again I also believe adults are able to tell the difference and appreciate a work for what it is even if it isn't perfect and has some form of racial stereotype in it. But even in that situation children have yet to develop the capability to do such a thing. While they may not think anything of at least half the things said what they do understand holds no context or nuance for them to be able to understand.

I guess that, simply put, I don't have a real answer and don't know if one can ever be found.

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Unbridled9 posted...

But even in that situation children have yet to develop the capability to do such a thing. While they may not think anything of at least half the things said what they do understand holds no context or nuance for them to be able to understand.

Sure, and for that reason I don't have an issue with children's literature with "problematic" elements being removed from circulation. I do believe, however, that they should be kept accessible in some form for adults and researchers who want to seek them out (much as we can still view Seuss's more racist political cartoons today, which is an important element for contextualizing and discussing his work).

I do think the pop culture of the past - even that which is horribly discriminatory by today's standard - has an important spot in the history books, because it gives us a window into what social standards were like at the time and what was and wasn't considered acceptable (which, to finish closing the loop, helps us evaluate whether certain people were genuinely awful or simply products of their time). Hell, I'm old enough to have seen this in my lifetime. When I was a kid, several slurs and metaphors were very casually batted around the playground without the teachers batting an eye that would get kids today suspended or worse.

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darkknight109 posted...

Sure, and for that reason I don't have an issue with children's literature with "problematic" elements being removed from circulation. I do believe, however, that they should be kept accessible in some form for adults and researchers who want to seek them out (much as we can still view Seuss's more racist political cartoons today, which is an important element for contextualizing and discussing his work).

I do think the pop culture of the past - even that which is horribly discriminatory by today's standard - has an important spot in the history books, because it gives us a window into what social standards were like at the time and what was and wasn't considered acceptable (which, to finish closing the loop, helps us evaluate whether certain people were genuinely awful or simply products of their time). Hell, I'm old enough to have seen this in my lifetime. When I was a kid, several slurs and metaphors were very casually batted around the playground without the teachers batting an eye that would get kids today suspended or worse.

Not to mention you'd never be able to understand things like how prohibition lead to the rise of speak-easies in which the races intermingled which was a player (if only in a smaller part) to the end of segregation and the Civil Rights movement. History is important for certain. I agree with what you are saying though about it remaining accessible for adults who do have the capabilities to handle the nuance while removing it from children's circulation.

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whiskey losing his shit in here has been hilarious

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DirtBasedSoap posted...

whiskey losing his shit in here has been hilarious

Who is Whiskey?

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lucifersage

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Unbridled9 posted...

Not to mention you'd never be able to understand things like how prohibition lead to the rise of speak-easies in which the races intermingled which was a player (if only in a smaller part) to the end of segregation and the Civil Rights movement. History is important for certain. I agree with what you are saying though about it remaining accessible for adults who do have the capabilities to handle the nuance while removing it from children's circulation.

Meanwhile batshit crazy leftists are trying to remove names like "Lincoln" from schools and public buildings because the man who freed the slaves isn't progressive enough for them in [current year].

But cultural marxism and "the Four Olds" aren't a thing in America..."be less certain"...so you'll shut up and believe what you're told.

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Societies changes and evolve, Whiskey. No society across the history of humankind has statically stayed tied to some ancient tenants.

LuciferSage posted...

batshit crazy leftists are trying to remove names like "Lincoln" from schools and public buildings

you should maybe stay off the internet, bud. it seems like it might be too much for you to handle.

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JigsawTDC posted...

Societies changes and evolve, Whiskey. No society across the history of humankind has statically stayed tied to some ancient tenants.

TIL Abraham Lincoln is ancient history.

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I love how many posters in this topic just flatly refuse to read the actual article

this is potato headgate all over again

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LuciferSage posted...

TIL Abraham Lincoln is ancient history.

Dude... 2000 was 21 years ago. Pokemon isn't just old enough to vote; it's old enough that it's kid would be attending elementary. There are movies we've seen where the future dates they thought we'd have things like flying cars have already passed. We're ancient history and we're still alive and relatively young!

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LuciferSage posted...

TIL Abraham Lincoln is ancient history.

kill your idols

or continue to get angry about the constant reassessment of dead people (spoiler: it's not going to stop), idc

you do you

JigsawTDC posted...

kill your idols

or continue to get angry about the constant reassessment of dead people (spoiler: it's not going to stop), idc

you do you

And you do you BlueAnon.

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LuciferSage posted...

BlueAnon.

lmao, taking some cues from Q?

Whiskey really is the new Erik

He just wants to argue for the sake of it and he is ALWAYS wrong lol

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Whiskey may be a little more down the Q hole than we thought if he's buying into things like BlueAnon lol

What even is that

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yeah what is blue anon

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