Current Events > Report: Sony will remake The Last of Us 1

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah I don't get the impression that TLOU2 really made any declarations about the ending.

Hell the opening scene is his brother saying he'd do the same thing.

But I always had the interpretation at the end of TLOU1 that their relationship would never be the same because Ellie knew Joel did something to get her out and Joel would never admit it because he'd know Ellie would get upset and see him differently. Which is what the sequel went with.



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Darmik posted...

Yeah I don't get the impression that TLOU2 really made any declarations about the ending.

Hell the opening scene is his brother saying he'd do the same thing.

But I always had the interpretation at the end of TLOU1 that their relationship would never be the same because Ellie knew Joel did something to get her out and Joel would never admit it because he'd know Ellie would get upset and see him differently. Which is what the sequel went with.

Same. I thought it was fairly clear she could kinda tell he was lying but sort of had no choice but to believe him at the time.

But yeah, what you said about Tommy validating his choice is exactly it. Its why I struggle with these conversations. Even the more eloquent people who want to debate me on why I liked it (as opposed to just dumping on it or whatever) tend to eventually circle back to how the game tries to make you feel guilty or tries to make you hate Joel/Ellie and I just kinda dont know what game they played, I guess. If people wanna criticize the pacing or narrative structure, I dont really agree but thats fine, just difference of opinion. Some stuff is just still like ...what? to me though.

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Joel95 posted...

It was made clear that Ellie would've wanted to sacrifice herself and Joel knew that. I also didn't say that the Fireflies were saints either.

Fucking when lmao

Ellie even asks Joel in Spring what does she think they'll do when they get to the Fireflies and Joel just goes "Probably take some blood, it won't hurt", which relieved her immensely

Any disdain she has for Joel probably comes with her not knowing the full extent of what was happening

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

Fucking when lmao

Ellie even asks Joel in Spring what does she think they'll do when they get to the Fireflies and Joel just goes "Probably take some blood, it won't hurt", which relieved her immensely

Any disdain she has for Joel probably comes with her not knowing the full extent of what was happening

The final dialogue scene outright spells it out. The scene right before everything goes to shit has Joel asking Ellie to just go back to Tommy's but she says that they can't be going through all of this for nothing.

She has disdain for Joel because she knows he's lying. That's why she gives him the silent treatment and only a 'Okay' after making him swear that he's telling the truth.

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I want it to take place during those first 20 years. See the downfall as it happens.

No more bigot sandwiches and love triangles.

Also bring back factions

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Darmik posted...

The final dialogue scene outright spells it out. The scene right before everything goes to shit has Joel asking Ellie to just go back to Tommy's but she says that they can't be going through all of this for nothing.

She has disdain for Joel because she knows he's lying. That's why she gives him the silent treatment and only a 'Okay' after making him swear that he's telling the truth.

You're making an inference, not an explanation. It was a common acceptance theory at launch that she accepts it because she understands that Joel is lying because the truth isn't something she'd want to know and her acceptance (after a long pause) is her realizing that's okay as long as they can stick together. There's nothing that twists the ending in one explicit direction or another, but there are plenty of clues in the story that Ellie either didn't know what was gonna happen to her or she had desire to be separated from Joel after all they've been through.

No 15 year old will realistically be willing to sacrifice themselves on a "maybe" which is all the Fireflies were offering, c'mon now.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

You're making an inference, not an explanation. It was a common acceptance theory at launch that she accepts it because she understands that Joel is lying because the truth isn't something she'd want to know and her acceptance (after a long pause) is her realizing that's okay as long as they can stick together. There's nothing that twists the ending in one explicit direction or another, but there are plenty of clues in the story that Ellie either didn't know what was gonna happen to her or she had desire to be separated from Joel after all they've been through.

No 15 year old will realistically be willing to sacrifice themselves on a "maybe" which is all the Fireflies were offering, c'mon now.

And yet it was a theory that didn't pan out. Nothing about the tone of her okay sounded like acceptance or forgiveness to me. It sounded like a relationship that has been fundamentally broken due to a lie. That's why you had an entire epilogue where Ellie didn't say anything to Joel. She never seperated herself from Joel either. Even when she stopped talking to him she stayed in the same settlement and still cared about him.

Ellie didn't know what was going to happen. But if she did her character is that she would give up her life. She's a character that's all about survivor's guilt. She was ready to die with Riley and her immunity meant that didn't happen. That has always been a cloud over the character. Again this is the reason she is saying that to Joel in the final scene.

That doesn't mean that she knew what was going to happen or that she'd die for nothing. What the Fireflies did was wrong as well. Neither of them gave her a choice. On top of that her father figure doesn't tell her the truth about it either. The game was and still is about morally grey characters doing what they think is right or just at the expense of others.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

No 15 year old will realistically be willing to sacrifice themselves on a "maybe" which is all the Fireflies were offering, c'mon now.

Riley was the first to die....then Tess...then Sam... Im still waiting for my turn.

Ellie explicitly tells Joel she has survivor's guilt and still feels like she should be dead. She then reaffirms that stance in the flashback at the end of TLOU2 where she says she was supposed to die in the hospital. Ellie is a character absolutely wracked with survivor's guilt and on top of that feels robbed of her purpose in life, to "be the cure."

You can definitely argue Ellie, as a 15 year old, is not really of sound mind to make that call. You can also argue that maybe when it actually came time for her to say "yes, I'm ready to die" she wouldn't have been able to muster it up. Aside from that, I've got absolutely no idea where you got this confidence that Ellie would never be willing to sacrifice herself. That's kinda like... her whole thing. The Left Behind DLC went out of its way to hammer home how central this is to her character. What you're describing as a "common theory" that she just accepted Joel was lying and it was for the best was simply never the case and is a fundamental misreading of the scene and the character.

Ashley Johnson even said at the time seven years ago that Ellie didn't believe Joel. "Ellie through the game has a really good bullshit detector... so when Joel says that 'oh, you know, yeah, the Fireflies, it didn't end up working', she KNOWS he's lying." Say what you will about Word of God as a source, but I think that's simply supplemental confirmation of what's already obvious in game.

Darmik said a lot of this too, and said it very well. Yes, TLOU was "ambiguous" in its morality but a lot of the people claiming that TLOU2 ruined the ambiguity seem to be referring to things in TLOU1 that were NOT actually very ambiguous and were just not paying terribly close attention. To be so confident that Ellie would definitely not sacrifice herself to the Fireflies that you're like "c'mon now" to anyone who suggests otherwise only serves to make it look like your memory of the first game is fuzzy or that you willfully ignored things it told you to headcanon your interpretation.

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tlou doesnt need a remake

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lww99 posted...

tlou doesnt need a remake

I don't see the point here.

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Blackstar110 posted...

Riley was the first to die....then Tess...then Sam... Im still waiting for my turn.

Ellie explicitly tells Joel she has survivor's guilt and still feels like she should be dead. She then reaffirms that stance in the flashback at the end of TLOU2 where she says she was supposed to die in the hospital. Ellie is a character absolutely wracked with survivor's guilt and on top of that feels robbed of her purpose in life, to "be the cure."

You can definitely argue Ellie, as a 15 year old, is not really of sound mind to make that call. You can also argue that maybe when it actually came time for her to say "yes, I'm ready to die" she wouldn't have been able to muster it up. Aside from that, I've got absolutely no idea where you got this confidence that Ellie would never be willing to sacrifice herself. That's kinda like... her whole thing. The Left Behind DLC went out of its way to hammer home how central this is to her character. What you're describing as a "common theory" that she just accepted Joel was lying and it was for the best was simply never the case and is a fundamental misreading of the scene and the character.

Ashley Johnson even said at the time seven years ago that Ellie didn't believe Joel. "Ellie through the game has a really good bullshit detector... so when Joel says that 'oh, you know, yeah, the Fireflies, it didn't end up working', she KNOWS he's lying." Say what you will about Word of God as a source, but I think that's simply supplemental confirmation of what's already obvious in game.

Darmik said a lot of this too, and said it very well. Yes, TLOU was "ambiguous" in its morality but a lot of the people claiming that TLOU2 ruined the ambiguity seem to be referring to things in TLOU1 that were NOT actually very ambiguous and were just not paying terribly close attention. To be so confident that Ellie would definitely not sacrifice herself to the Fireflies that you're like "c'mon now" to anyone who suggests otherwise only serves to make it look like your memory of the first game is fuzzy or that you willfully ignored things it told you to headcanon your interpretation.

Not believing Joel and accepting whatever might've happened at the end of the first game are not mutually exclusive. Anything and everything that happened in TLOU2 was haphazardly retconned to justify whatever happened in TLOU2, and even then some things still make no sense (my favorite one is showing Joel absolutely murdering everyone in the hospital, even though you're only ever forced to murder the doctor who will kill you otherwise). Ellie seemingly resents Joel for the ending of TLOU1, yet is willing to go on a cross-country tour to avenge his death. Ellie being a death seeker also doesn't suddenly mean that suddenly all the adults around her are wrong. Joel and Marlene were basically foster parents controlling her future, and in the case of Marlene, she didn't want to give Ellie a say in it...otherwise she would've said a while ago what her producing a cure entails.

And about Word of God, Troy Baker seems to differ about whether Joel did the right thing or not:

I feel like everyone says Joel could have saved the world, that he had the opportunity to save the world, and in my opinion he did save the world. Because that girl was his world and if he couldnt save her, there was no world worth saving. Baker pauses dramatically, I think to me that speaks to especially in a time like right now that speaks to our humanity. If were not willing to do these things, then is humanity really worth saving?

He's absolutely right. Humanity was already fucked and there was no guarantee that the Fireflies could not only make a vaccine, but also distribute it in a meaningful way. "The Last of Us" can refer to a million different things, but in the terms of the original meaning I think it was referring to Ellie and Joel (and to a lesser extent Tommy, Maria and Jackson) being one of the last bastions of humanity and love (especially when Druckmann said the first game was about love). Marlene was willing to give up Ellie for a potential cure. Joel wasn't, out of love. You don't have to agree, but I know you understand.

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Absolutely nothing you said is a retcon. Nothing Troy Baker said contradicts how Ellie feels about the situation.

How Ellie feels over what happened does not mean the game wants you to hate Joel over what he did.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Ellie seemingly resents Joel for the ending of TLOU1, yet is willing to go on a cross-country tour to avenge his death.

I don't know how you can find something like this hard to understand. She both resents him for what he did but still loves him.

This is an example of how it's so difficult to talk to you about this game. You completely misunderstand the sequel and characters to the point where it seems like willful ignorance.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

and even then some things still make no sense (my favorite one is showing Joel absolutely murdering everyone in the hospital, even though you're only ever forced to murder the doctor who will kill you otherwise).

what doesn't make sense? iirc, even though Joel only had to kill the doctor once he was in the operating room to save Ellie, he had to kill Fireflies as he made his way there, and when you first see the Abby flashback after Joel made his way through the hospital, the only dead body that she sees is her father's, so it's consistent with the first game.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Ellie seemingly resents Joel for the ending of TLOU1, yet is willing to go on a cross-country tour to avenge his death.

because maybe she also loved him, and felt some guilt about how things were left between the two? it's not like people just feel one thing.

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Darmik posted...

I don't know how you can find something like this hard to understand. She both resents him for what he did but still loves him.

This is an example of how it's so difficult to talk to you about this game. You completely misunderstand the sequel and characters to the point where it seems like willful ignorance.

Ding ding ding! It's really not complicated for Ellie to both love Joel and resent what he did. I have no idea what Avantgarde thinks was "retconned" outside of Joel killing three doctors instead of a minimum of one... Darmik here is right, it's hard to have these conversations in good faith when it feels like the people you're talking to are being disingenuous. How can you claim to be all about the ambiguity while also pretending to not understand how Ellie could have conflicted emotions about Joel?

Also, yeah, whether Joel "did the right thing" or not is and was debatable and not even remotely what Ashley Johnson was talking about, so not sure why that Troy quote came up. Pretty sure everyone here understands why Joel did what he did and I personally would probably do the same. Doesn't change a lick about what Ashley said about Ellie.

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Darmik posted...

This is an example of how it's so difficult to talk to you about this game. You completely misunderstand the sequel and characters to the point where it seems like willful ignorance.

Your problem is that you think the original game is in service of explaining everything that happens in the sequel, to the point where the ending is explicitly explicit instead of implicit.

I know nothing pains you more than someone badmouthing TLOU2, but holy fucking shit dont you even try to use the first game to boost up the second one like that.

Blackstar110 posted...

Ding ding ding! It's really not complicated for Ellie to both love Joel and resent what he did. I have no idea what Avantgarde thinks was "retconned" outside of Joel killing three doctors instead of a minimum of one... Darmik here is right, it's hard to have these conversations in good faith when it feels like the people you're talking to are being disingenuous. How can you claim to be all about the ambiguity while also pretending to not understand how Ellie could have conflicted emotions about Joel?

Im not trying to argue that Ellie cant resent Joel while also loving him, otherwise why would she still be with him past TLOU2? What Im not amused by is people trying to tell me that it was obvious Ellie had a death wish at the end of TLOU1 and that her reason for hating Joel is because he denied her that. Neither one of them realized what helping the Fireflies with the cure entailed before they got there; that much is stated as recently as the level before the hospital. Ellies disappointment comes not necessarily from Joel lying to her, but rather than their entire journey and all the growth and sacrifice that came from it felt meaningless (the it in it cant be for nothing is precisely that). It doesnt matter what Ashley thinks and I only brought Troys quote up to prove the point that everyone interpreted the ending differently, so pretending to think that anyone knew what it meant is gonna go nowhere. Druckmann is not that fucking smart to foresee the esoteric happy ending the first game couldve created, stop pretending that he is.

Blackstar110 posted...

But yeah, what you said about Tommy validating his choice is exactly it. Its why I struggle with these conversations. Even the more eloquent people who want to debate me on why I liked it (as opposed to just dumping on it or whatever) tend to eventually circle back to how the game tries to make you feel guilty or tries to make you hate Joel/Ellie and I just kinda dont know what game they played, I guess. If people wanna criticize the pacing or narrative structure, I dont really agree but thats fine, just difference of opinion. Some stuff is just still like ...what? to me though.

The second game retcons Joel murdering every Firefly he ran across in the hospital (complete with blood splatters on the walls and shit) and Kubrick staring Abbys dad before he kills him. If that wasnt meant to paint him in a certain light (unless were gonna argue that the entire thing is how Abby interpreted it), then I guess they remade those scenes for nothing.

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AvantgardeAClue posted...

Your problem is that you think the original game is in service of explaining everything that happens in the sequel, to the point where the ending is explicitly explicit instead of implicit.

You're not making sense. The stuff you seem to be confused about was pretty obvious in the original. The sequel continued with that plot thread.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

What Im not amused by is people trying to tell me that it was obvious Ellie had a death wish at the end of TLOU1 and that her reason for hating Joel is because he denied her that.

That isn't what people are saying. She resents him for denying him the choice and lying to her about it.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

but rather than their entire journey and all the growth and sacrifice that came from it felt meaningless

Yes. Which is why she is bitter she didn't get the opportunity to make it mean something.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

It doesnt matter what Ashley thinks and I only brought Troys quote up to prove the point that everyone interpreted the ending differently, so pretending to think that anyone knew what it meant is gonna go nowhere. Druckmann is not that fucking smart to foresee the esoteric happy ending the first game couldve created, stop pretending that he is.

Neither Ashley or Baker contradict each other.

Ellie knew Joel was lying and this leads to their relationship breaking down in the sequel.
Ellie means the world to Joel and she made him a better person.

TLOU1's ending was never meant to be happy. Which is why it ended the way it did.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

The second game retcons Joel murdering every Firefly he ran across in the hospital (complete with blood splatters on the walls and shit) and Kubrick staring Abbys dad before he kills him. If that wasnt meant to paint him in a certain light (unless were gonna argue that the entire thing is how Abby interpreted it), then I guess they remade those scenes for nothing.

Neither of those things are retcons. You have to kill people in that section. If you're gonna whine about the number of bodies I don't know how a video game can ever get that right without a 'retcon'

This sort of thing happens in games all the time when you see events from a different perspective.

Fleshing out a character in a sequel isn't a retcon either. Obviously the people who get killed have a life outside of being killed by the player.

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I frankly cannot imagine getting mad that the game retconned Joel to... look angry when he killed the doctor who was about to kill Ellie and brandishing a scalpel at him. The cmon baby girl stuff played out exactly the same way, and youre acting like they made Joel laugh maniacally as he carved through them with a machete.

What he did at the hospital was dark and violent even if you believe he was 100% in the right given the circumstance. He blew Marlene to kingdom come as she laid on the ground defenseless. Again, you can argue he had to, but its still dark. If your threshold for a retcon is that TLOU1 lets you choose if he kills one or three doctors and TLOU2 decided it was three, youre gonna be upset by most sequels to anything ever.

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Blackstar110 posted...

I frankly cannot imagine getting mad that the game retconned Joel to... look angry when he killed the doctor who was about to kill Ellie and brandishing a scalpel at him. The cmon baby girl stuff played out exactly the same way, and youre acting like they made Joel laugh maniacally as he carved through them with a machete.

What he did at the hospital was dark and violent even if you believe he was 100% in the right given the circumstance. He blew Marlene to kingdom come as she laid on the ground defenseless. Again, you can argue he had to, but its still dark. If your threshold for a retcon is that TLOU1 lets you choose if he kills one or three doctors and TLOU2 decided it was three, youre gonna be upset by most sequels to anything ever.

Yeah TLOU2 retconned Joel to make him look worse. Because in the end of the first game, you being forced to stab a doctor on the neck and then shooting Marlene (who let him live twice) on the stomach and then shooting her in the head when she's begging for her life was supposed to make Joel look really heroic.

Joel95 posted...

Yeah TLOU2 retconned Joel to make him look worse. Because in the end of the first game, you being forced to stab a doctor on the neck and then shooting Marlene (who let him live twice) on the stomach and then shooting her in the head when she's begging for her life was supposed to make Joel look really heroic.

Lol exactly. I mean forget the word heroic because you can debate that Joel doing what was necessary to save his surrogate daughter was heroic in a sense, but still. No idea how you can play TLOU1, watch Joel blow Marlenes head off after shes already down purely to prevent anyone from coming after them, and then be upset at TLOU2 because Joel left bloodstains behind and looked mad :( Is the issue at hand simply that TLOU2 had Joel kill the other two doctors?

like... to call that a retcon... woof

EDIT: I just checked and Im pretty sure the game doesnt even assert Joel killed anyone except Jerry and three soldiers in the hallway outside the room, lol. You only see the one body when Abby finds him and the scene in the beginning where Joel picks up Ellie doesnt show anyone except Jerry, so the other two doctors could just be huddling in the corner if thats how you played it out in your game. So at this point were really complaining that Joel killed three armed guards in the hospital sequence. Is it even possible to beat that section without killing anyone? Whats the complaint?

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the PS4 remaster was good enough as it is. doesnt need a remake tbh...