Current Events > Why does America have to have the worst work world of developed nations?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Why is it nearly impossible to ever have a relaxed job, where you don't have to worry that even being late one time could start talks of you being fired or demoted?

Why is it that it's hard for employers to be nice at all to employees when it doesn't cost anything to do so?

It always seems like of western developed nations, America's has to be the worst always and to where its almost as if employers want their employees to hate their job.

Why is this?

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Japan?

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We have a toxic work culture here based on Protestant beliefs, where it's believed you should put maximum effort into your job, regardless of how demeaning, unrewarding and unsatisfying it is.

Combine this with a highly exploitative capitalist structure centered around corporations propagandizing workers into sacrificing their mind, body and soul for the sake of company profits and there you go.

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If you want a very long answer, I recommend Sharon Smith's book Subterranean Fire, which is a history of working class movements in the US and where they fell short.

But a short answer is that the labor movement failed to create lasting power for itself, and tied its fortunes to a Democratic Party that has had other priorities. Whereas in other countries the "left" parties have tended to be Labor Parties, which doesn't make them immune to backsliding and triangulation but has tended to produce better results.

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Could be a holdover from the Protestant work ethic, in which hard work = devotion to God.

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piUrsEitanizm posted...

Why is it nearly impossible to ever have a relaxed job, where even being late one time could start talks of you being fired or demoted?

Why is it that it's hard for employers to be nice at all to employees when it doesn't cost anything to do so?

It always seems like of western developed nations, America's has to be the worst always and to where its almost as if employers want their employees to hate their job.

Why is this?

if you have a degree and work for a decent company and have good bosses, this issue is nearly non existent for the most part in liberal states. we do have laws against employers from discriminating employees as well.

America isn't even THAT bad. I mean ymmv depending on what you do...but hrs We might work more than some european countries per week and not have paid family leave and a set amount of vacation leave on a federal level, but we are doing alright. Most Americans work around 40hrs.

we aren't even the closest to being 'bad.' Wouldn't want to work in Japan or Korea where the standard of living is high in countries, but work hrs is like significantly more, with the pressure to go to a good school and working long hrs drive people to suicide.

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Arcanine2009 posted...

we aren't even the closest to being 'bad.' Wouldn't want to work in Japan or Korea where the standard of living is high in countries, but work hrs is like significantly more,

Americans work more hours on average than the Japanese
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/average-working-time-by-country.html

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Ivynn posted...

Japan?

America did that
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Liberty!!

Antifar posted...

Americans work more hours on average than the Japanese
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/average-working-time-by-country.html

Japan has more holidays and do enforce people to take time off. they might have a better vacation system.

America as a whole doesn't take a lot of time off, but they don't work long hrs. Japan's work culture--notably white collar salaryman jobs are known to be long and exhausting. 12hr work days where they can't leave until the boss does, and then they have to drink with the boss after. white collar Millennials in Japan complain about not having time to date and have kids because of the high cost if living in cities and working so much and not having time to.

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piUrsEitanizm posted...

Why is it nearly impossible to ever have a relaxed job, where you don't have to worry that even being late one time could start talks of you being fired or demoted?

Pretty easy to do if you have an actual desired skill

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SevenTenths posted...

Pretty easy to do if you have an actual desired skill

Yeah, this.
I'm regularly drinking at work, but nobody cares so long I get shit done.

Arcanine2009 posted...

white collar Millennials in Japan complain about not having time to date and have kids because of the high cost if living in cities and working so much and not having time to.

Is that notably different from white collar millennials in the US?
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56452494#
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/10/red-dead-redemption-2-devs-say-quoted-100-hour-weeks-arent-the-norm/


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Antifar posted...

Is that notably different from white collar millennials in the US?

Probably not, but I'm personally foreveralone out of laziness.

Xavier_On_High posted...

Could be a holdover from the Protestant work ethic, in which hard work = devotion to God.

David Graeber also fingered that as a prime culprit. This belief that hard work is its own reward, and that ones worth is proportional to how hard one works and how much work they do.
Though modern office culture and general bloated administrative apparatuses arise from a bit more than that.

ElatedVenusaur posted...

David Graeber also fingered that as a prime culprit. This belief that hard work is its own reward, and that ones worth is proportional to how hard one works and how much work they do.
Though modern office culture and general bloated administrative apparatuses arise from a bit more than that.

You read Bullshit Jobs, or was this in his other work too?

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Antifar posted...

You read Bullshit Jobs, or was this in his other work too?

Yeah, though Ive been meaning to read more. I never read as much as I want to though. And theres so much worth reading!

Antifar posted...

You read Bullshit Jobs, or was this in his other work too?

Did I buy that yet? Hold on....

Nope. Still waiting in my amazon "pricedrop watchlist" - it's dropped 22% tho.
Should I? We disagree on mostly everything, but you haven't done me wrong yet.

Antifar posted...

Americans work more hours on average than the Japanese
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/average-working-time-by-country.html

Japan's in kind of in a weird place in this regard. If you want enough to comfortably afford a house, (traditional) family and Japans high cost of living you're need a white collar job. Which means dedicating your entire being from HS, through college and then the rest of it to the business. Doeasnt get any better for the woman.

And then there are single individuals who earn enough for a modest living but not much else. Even dating.

Thinking about it now that's probabaly why so little of its anime/manga center around kids/teens. Since adults in their lifes dont have time for anything outside of the above.

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Prismsblade posted...

Japan's in kind of in a weird place in this regard. If you want enough to comfortably afford a house, (traditional) family and Japans high cost of living you're need a white collar job. Which means dedicating your entire being from HS, through college and then the rest of it to the business. Doeasnt get any better for the woman.

Hyper-America in that regard, if anything.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Hyper-America in that regard, if anything.

In some respects, but I feel Americans despite our work hours still manage to find a decent balance still between work and personal life. Which is why breaking down physically and mentally from it isnt anywhere near as prevalent here.

Likely because at the end of the day, despite our toxic work culture we value our selves above all else rather then the company or even our society.

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Prismsblade posted...

Likely because at the end of the day, despite our toxic work culture we value our selves above all else rather then the company or even our society.

This is probably the right answer. America was about liberty and individualism before United States even existed.
Meanwhile, Japan still clings to traditional collectivism

One thing I have observed that might not be true necessarily is that Americans seems to have an easier time finding tolerable work, even if work culture sucks over all

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I don't think the 40 hour work week is bad, but US workers could definitely stand to have more vacation time and benefits (although I know a lot of people who just let vacation time go to waste).

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Xavier_On_High posted...

Could be a holdover from the Protestant work ethic, in which hard work = devotion to God.

I think this is just an excuse. No one's creating work just to have work to do (at least intentionally). It's all being done because someone wants something, and they want it now, and they want it perfect. That expectation does not encourage a company to let employees slack because the other company will take the job if you don't try and meet the unreasonable demand.

And that expectation comes from a lack of respect for the work needed. When we want something it always seems like a small request. When we're doing it, it may take a lot of extra hours. The further one is away from the actual work involved, the more likely one is to fall into that mindset, and if you don't work at all, you have no real frame of refrence to understand the extra effort you create. This is true from bitchy Karens, to middle management, to safety inspectors (and other auditors) to online activists, they'll let someone die of overwork before questioning if they really need all the bells and whistles they're asking for enough to justify it.

Of course that isn't the only thing. Management can and does attract controlling and abusive people because it is a position that's rooted in contorting people and offers little avenue if they treat you like shit. Since having to accept my own abuse in the workplace, I've come to question why manager seems to be the one major role in society that doesn't ask for some form of third party certification they could have revoked if they say, think shouting at employees it the best way to motivate them. Sadly, they've slipped past the idea of controls on them, and keep their jobs through politics and salesmanship, and too many like their little fiefdoms as it is a place you can get away with bullying.

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doomcrusader posted...

(although I know a lot of people who just let vacation time go to waste).

Yeah, that's my bad. I let it max out and overflow into the void, because I have nothing better to do.

Ivynn posted...

Japan?

Yeah, even South Korea is very similar now.

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yunalenne10 posted...

Yeah, even South Korea is very similar now.

It's just something that happens to nations that actually escape the Middle-income Trap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_income_trap
Mexico is next, then India.

US, Japan, and SK are oddly enough all in a similar boat in terms of being overworked

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FL81 posted...

US, Japan, and SK are oddly enough all in a similar boat in terms of being overworked

Canada is the "America" United States always wanted to be, and I have no idea how that happened.

Man, I've been lucky to work in career fields where this level of strictness doesn't really exist.
Like, so long as I'm in the office at general times of 9-3, I can work my 80 hours (over 2 weeks) when ever I want to. If I get to my 80 hours quick, i can take a day off or leave early, or work from home.

As long as my work is done or I have backup, in can give very little notice of PTO.

I do tend to work over 80 hours in a pay period though. Which I never really had an issue with early on in my career. The work was usually worth it and in learned from it
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doomcrusader posted...

I don't think the 40 hour work week is bad, but US workers could definitely stand to have more vacation time and benefits (although I know a lot of people who just let vacation time go to waste).

It isn't even the hours in the week. It's the expected productivity. Like you have to be busy all the time. God forbid your job take 20 hours and you hang around in case of an emergency for the other 20, ready for business increases because you have the time.

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we lack unions if every job formed a union it wouldnt be so bad

lightwarrior78 posted...

It isn't even the hours in the week. It's the expected productivity. Like you have to be busy all the time. God forbid your job take 20 hours and you hang around in case of an emergency for the other 20, ready for business increases because you have the time.

The big secret, that isn't even a secret, is that your pay is directly related to how long it takes to have you replaced.

Think about how long your on-the-job training was. That's how soon someone else can take your job, give or take any degree or vocational training.

lightwarrior78 posted...

It isn't even the hours in the week. It's the expected productivity. Like you have to be busy all the time. God forbid your job take 20 hours and you hang around in case of an emergency for the other 20, ready for business increases because you have the time.

It depends on the job/career, certain businesses are paid in direct correlation To their productivity. So the more of it they can screeze out of you during your shift, the greater the profits.

That, and most arent paying their employees to sit on their asses for extended periods of time.


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Questionmarktarius posted...

The big secret, that isn't even a secret, is that your pay is directly related to how long it takes to have you replaced.

Think about how long your on-the-job training was. That's how soon someone else can take your job, give or take any degree or vocational training.

Not true. There's a heavy does of what your employer values and doesn't value. My old boss did not for example, value prompt payment of the bills and staff with great accuracy. He does value people that provide subpar work so long as they are local entrepreneurs.

Though my comment was more about the 40 hour week. Few managers think in terms of paying for service with employees so much as paying for time, and the will try and squeeze every ounce of productivity over your job description out of you in that time. People don't necessarily want shorter work weeks. they want the 40 hours they do work to be less full of BS to feel you're getting your money's worth.

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Why I still have a job:

"Here's a completely insane and likely impossible client request."
"I know a really weird way to make that happen, but it's a bad idea - possibly even a violation of the Geneva Accords"
"Do that, then."

Questionmarktarius posted...

Why I still have a job:

"Here's a completely insane and likely impossible client request."
"I know a really weird way to make that happen, but it's a bad idea - possibly even a violation of the Geneva Accords"
"Do that, then."

Sounds like how I kept mine until covid hit the business hard. Just cross out client and write in employee / management.

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lightwarrior78 posted...

Sounds like how I kept mine until covid hit the business hard.

Oh fuck, did you lose that job?

Antifar posted...

Americans work more hours on average than the Japanese
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/average-working-time-by-country.html

That's not the proper conclusion.

From the oecd website where this data originated:

The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation.

America is turning into what Japan was.

Japan is turning into what Americans are fighting for


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Because corporate monopolies basically control the entire workforce and they have donated so much money to so many politicians that they are allowed to overwork and underpay workers. Very simply, the courts should have stepped in by now to address the low wages and unbelievable cost of living, but theyre legitimately paid to keep 99% of the countrys profits staying at the very top.

Small businesses struggle to keep the storefront rent paid and there really isnt a whole lot of profit to even pay the workers or offer benefits and retirement packages, hence why nobody wants to work in the private sector now.

Anyone who unironically says this while Japan and Korea exist is ignorant and not worth acknowledging