Current Events > Good Chiropractors are fucking insane

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SuperShake666
04/18/21 7:45:13 PM
#52:


joe40001 posted...
I think like with all things following the science is important.

The thing that doesn't exist when it comes to Chiropractors?

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joe40001
04/18/21 7:48:35 PM
#53:


Middle hope posted...
Are these videos made by the chiropractor?

You think they might be acting to sell the business?

Do I think such a thing could be theoretically possible in a different context? Yes.

Do I think that is what is happening in this or any of his videos, no obviously not. I can't believe you live in a such a crazy world to think it's more logical that these people are hiring world class actors that nobody has ever heard of to produce endless amounts of video (presumably flawlessly adding the adjustment noises in post-production) to advertise their chiropract practice even though many of these people have modest viewership at best an in no way could afford such a production.

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/spinal-manipulation-what-you-need-to-know
  • In a 2017 clinical practice guideline, the ACP suggested that spinal manipulation remains a recommended treatment option for chronic low-back pain, saying that it is one of several options that show some evidence of effectiveness.


I don't get why people are so invested in it. It's not like I'm coming in here saying GOOP IS AMAZING AND EVERYTHING PALTRO SAYS IS RIGHT.

But just like some of you smugly believe that everybody chiropractor is a bad faith con artist, and everybody who goes to them blindly is an ignorant fool. Maybe you should challenge your own ignorance more. Most reputable sources don't say there is 0 evidence for chiropractic effectiveness but rather that further study needs to be done and some chiropractic is only minorly or not at all effective. But that's exactly what I'm saying.

The ones of you dismissing this out of hand are the ones who are being intellectually disingenuous.

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#54
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DeadBankerDream
04/18/21 7:53:01 PM
#55:


So let doctors study the effectcs of "spinal manipulation" in safe settings with scientific rigor. Has nothing to do with chiropractors who do no science, no studies that aren't confirmation bias, and who are in absolutely zero ways qualified to provide medical advice or treatment.

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joe40001
04/18/21 7:56:20 PM
#56:


dolomedes posted...
well if you follow the science, you'll see what everybody here is telling you.

SuperShake666 posted...
The thing that doesn't exist when it comes to Chiropractors?

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/spinal-manipulation-what-you-need-to-know

I look forward to everybody finding an excuse to ignore all this too.

I don't see how anybody watches the first videos actually does some research, finds out the scientific community is at "some evidence to support it, but some evidence that it is no better than placebo, even us government and American College of Physicians (ACP) suggests that spinal manipulation is one of a number of therapeutic options that may help people with acute or chronic low-back pain (although the ACP says the quality of the evidence is low)." And people leave going

"CLEARLY FAKE NOTHING THERE, WORSE THAN GOOP, WHO CARES IF PEOPLE FEEL BETTER FUCK THEM"

Gonstead in particular seems promising so I don't know why people who are pro science want to shut down research into this just to validate their pre-existing opinion.

Ask yourself, would it really be so terrible to be wrong and find out that there is actually SOME value to certain chiropractic methods?

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DeadBankerDream
04/18/21 7:59:29 PM
#57:


joe40001 posted...
I look forward to everybody finding an excuse to ignore all this too.
Literally an institute that researchs alternative medicine.

Hint: Alternative means "not real"

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Tyranthraxus
04/18/21 8:05:26 PM
#58:


DeadBankerDream posted...
Literally an institute that researchs alternative medicine.

Hint: Alternative means "not real"
As Tim minchin says, "by definition, alternative medicine has not been proved to work or been proved to not work. Do you know what we call Alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:05:47 PM
#59:


DeadBankerDream posted...
Literally an institute that researchs alternative medicine.

Hint: Alternative means "not real"

alternative
/ltntv,ltntv/
adjective

1. available as another possibility or choice.


The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) is a United States government agency which explores complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). NCCIH is one of the 27 institutes and centers that make up the National Institutes of Health (NIH) within the Department of Health and Human Services of the federal government of the United States.

So where does the fraud start?

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FL81
04/18/21 8:06:00 PM
#60:


"Good" chiropractors

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DeadBankerDream
04/18/21 8:06:35 PM
#61:


At the door to the chiropractor's apartment that he pretends is a clinic.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:08:23 PM
#62:


Tyranthraxus posted...
As Tim minchin says, "by definition, alternative medicine has not been proved to work or been proved to not work. Do you know what we call Alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."

And you know what we called medicine before it was proven to work? Alternative medicine.

So presumably you'd be on the side of "let's do more science and follow the research in exploring the possible benefits of chiropractic care" rather than the side of "let's plug our fingers in our ears and yell really loud", right?

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hockeybub89
04/18/21 8:08:45 PM
#63:


joe40001 posted...
Living up to your tag yet again.

I also like how the topic has been up for such a short time you literally could not have even looked her in both clips even for a few seconds.

If your goal is to post a bad take, at least allow for the scientific possibility you aren't doing it completely ignorantly.
Go to an actual doctor, bro. Not a quack that is legally obligated to not call their care the medical variety. They're massage therapists that want to play doctor. You have to keep going back exactly because they can't truly help you.

It's like how when someone at work asks my pharmacists their recommendation for a homeopathic treatment. They're basically like "lol those aren't real and all their benefits are unverifiable."

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hockeybub89
04/18/21 8:11:10 PM
#64:


joe40001 posted...
And you know what we called medicine before it was proven to work? Alternative medicine.

So presumably you'd be on the side of "let's do more science and follow the research in exploring the possible benefits of chiropractic care" rather than the side of "let's plug our fingers in our ears and yell really loud", right?
There's benefits to eating healthy. Doesn't mean a health guru will replace your cardiologist.

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DeadBankerDream
04/18/21 8:11:44 PM
#66:


joe40001 posted...
So presumably you'd be on the side of "let's do more science and follow the research in exploring the possible benefits of chiropractic care"
Sounds like a great idea.

Not sure why dangerous quacks need to be involved.

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Tyranthraxus
04/18/21 8:12:00 PM
#67:


joe40001 posted...
And you know what we called medicine before it was proven to work? Alternative medicine.

So presumably you'd be on the side of "let's do more science and follow the research in exploring the possible benefits of chiropractic care" rather than the side of "let's plug our fingers in our ears and yell really loud", right?

Sure I'd love to do more science. The thing here is that chiropractics aren't new and we've already "science'd" them extensively and have found no evidence whatsoever that they are helpful.

You also generally do not pay people for the privilege of practicing science on you.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:12:54 PM
#68:


DeadBankerDream posted...
At the door to the chiropractor's apartment that he pretends is a clinic.

I tagged you as bad faith ages ago and pivots like this where you clearly avoid the question being asked, are why.

I'll make it super explicit so there is no wiggle room:
Since you are acting like the conclusions of the NCCIH are fraudulent. Are they themselves as an organization fraudulent? If so is the NIH also fraudulant? If so is the department of health and human services also fraudulent?

If you are incapable of answering one explicit direct question without a bad faith deflection, this will be the last time I ever respond to you as you clearly would not be a person willing to engage in good faith discussion.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:14:45 PM
#69:


hockeybub89 posted...
There's benefits to eating healthy. Doesn't mean a health guru will replace your cardiologist.

Who's saying they would?

God I hope you all wouldn't respond to the idea of eating healthy as an alternative medicine with such vitriol.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:16:13 PM
#70:


Tyranthraxus posted...
Sure I'd love to do more science. The thing here is that chiropractics aren't new and we've already "science'd" them extensively and have found no evidence whatsoever that they are helpful.

The literal US government:
https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/spinal-manipulation-what-you-need-to-know

How much of the legwork do I have to do for everybody before people go "ok maybe I was a bit under informed about chiropractic care"?

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JTilly
04/18/21 8:18:51 PM
#71:


Tc are you a troll or.... plz tell me youre a troll because people that actually have faith in chiropractors are.... nvm

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Chicken
04/18/21 8:19:03 PM
#72:


Snake

oil

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Tyranthraxus
04/18/21 8:19:25 PM
#73:


joe40001 posted...
The literal US government:
https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/spinal-manipulation-what-you-need-to-know

How much of the legwork do I have to do for everybody before people go "ok maybe I was a bit under informed about chiropractic care"?

Lmfao



Yeah hold on while I adjust my spine to help fight off COVID.

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#75
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#76
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DeadBankerDream
04/18/21 8:24:43 PM
#77:


joe40001 posted...
Since you are acting like the conclusions of the NCCIH are fraudulent. Are they themselves as an organization fraudulent?
Fraudelent is a strong word, but for simplicity's sake, we can use it. Using them as a source without other confirming research institutes backing them up is at best something you shouldn't do if you want to be taken seriously.

Obviously you don't want to be taken seriously though, or you wouldn't be behaving the way you do, so that might be a moot point.

And no, I don't think any of those other institutions it falls under are "fraudulent" simply through association.

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hockeybub89
04/18/21 8:27:01 PM
#78:


joe40001 posted...
Who's saying they would?

God I hope you all wouldn't respond to the idea of eating healthy as an alternative medicine with such vitriol.
Eating healthy is truly good for you. If someone is suggesting it as alternative to real medicine for real medical problems, rather than friendly advice, then yes I would respond that way.

If you want us to do the science on chiropractic, then it should be out of public until we prove it's medicine. Instead, it's been woo woo shit for a very long time. It's telling that they aren't doctors and none of their claims are verified or called medicine.

And if cost is an argument, then that means healthcare should be cheaper, not that we should push people to try alternative medicine.

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markconigliaro
04/18/21 8:27:16 PM
#79:


So I actually did watch the videos, well skim through them, mainly watched the beginning of video 1 and the end of video 2, as TC suggested.

We all know that chiropractors can have short term benefits/relief, even the people against chiro's have admitted that, and that's exactly what I see in the videos. Yes she walks better by the end, but they didn't give an update after some time has passed, they didn't show a new x-ray showing the spine is better. All the videos showed was someone walking a little better directly after an adjustment.

It's very likely she was back to her old walk the next day or a few days later. The problem is chiropractors don't actually fix anything. If you think you need to go to a chiropractor, go to physical therapy instead and work with real doctors, then the problem might actually get fixed. Those videos proved absolutely nothing.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:28:49 PM
#80:


RedWhiteBlue posted...
Joe, that page describes what it is, and why people seek treatment. Not how effective it is.

Yes it does, under the section "What are some of the pain conditions for which spinal manipulation has been used?"

The listed feelings patients have are literally equal to that of faith healing and 'natural remedies'.
Source?

And I don't know a single health professional (i.e. Has a degree / m.d. and practicing) who thinks there's any ounce of credibility in chiropractic care. Btw I went to Stony Brook Uni, you'd be laughed off campus if you claimed chiropractors are legit.

Well it's unfortunate not a single one would do any research before laughing. Because the research on chiropractic care, is very similar to something like that of acupuncture (are they still laughing at that)?

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:30:13 PM
#81:


For Sciatica
  • Manipulation isnt widely used to treat sciatica but it may help, a 2015 research review of a variety of sciatica treatments suggests. However, the studies had many limitations, the authors noted.
  • In a 2014 study of 192 people with leg pain associated with back pain, participants who received spinal manipulation, personal instruction, and exercises had less pain after 12 weeks and used less medication a year later than participants who received only personal instruction and exercises. However, leg pain was the same for both groups after 1 year.
For Low-Back Pain
Many noninvasive treatments are available for low-back pain, and these include drugs and nondrug options. In its 2017 clinical guidelines, the American College of Physicians (ACP) suggests that spinal manipulation is one of a number of therapeutic options that may help people with acute or chronic low-back pain (although the ACP says the quality of the evidence is low).
  • Spinal manipulation was better than placebo for immediate, short-term relief from acute or subacute low-back and neck pain, a 2010 research review concluded. Manipulation was also better than acupuncture for chronic low-back pain. However, the results of studies comparing spinal manipulation to massage, medication, or physical therapy were mixed.
  • A 2011 review of 26 studies concluded that for chronic low-back pain, spinal manipulation works as well as other commonly recommended approaches, including exercise or physical therapy. However, the effect on pain was minimal.
  • Twelve sessions of spinal manipulation may be the best dose, according to a 2014 NCCIH-funded study of 400 people with chronic low-back pain.
  • In a 2014 study of 110 participants with chronic low-back pain, those who received spinal manipulation had less sensitivity to painful stimuli right after getting spinal manipulation, compared to people who got sham spinal manipulation. But after a couple of weeks the two groups had similar amounts of pain and disability, the study showed. The study was supported by NCCIH.
  • The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ) systematic review of noninvasive nonpharmacologic treatment for chronic pain reported that spinal manipulation was associated with slightly greater effects than sham manipulation, usual care, an attention control, or a placebo intervention in the short term (i.e., 1-6 months following treatment) and intermediate term (i.e., 6-12 months). The report concluded the strength of the evidence was low. In addition, the report concluded that there was no evidence of differences between spinal manipulation versus sham manipulation, usual care, an attention control, or a placebo intervention in short-term pain, but manipulation was associated with slightly greater effects than controls on intermediate-term pain. The standard of evidence was considered low for short-term effects and moderate for intermediate-term effects.
  • The research on spinal manipulation for acute low-back pain is generally mixed and has many limitations.
  • Spinal manipulation is no more effective for acute low-back pain than sham (fake) spinal manipulation, or when added to another treatment such as standard medical care, a 2012 research review of 20 studies found. Spinal manipulation appeared to be safe when compared to other treatment options.
  • In a 2015 study of 220 people with acute low-back pain, participants who received physical therapy, which included spinal manipulation, fared no better than those who received standard care.
  • However, a 2015 NCCIH-funded study of 107 adults with recent-onset acute and subacute low-back pain found that those receiving spinal manipulation got greater short-term relief, compared to participants getting standard medical care. Furthermore, the study compared two different techniquesmanual thrust manipulation (MTM) and mechanical assisted manipulation (MAM)and found MTM led to greater short-term reductions in self-reported pain and disability than MAM or usual care.
  • A 2017 analysis examined data from 15 randomized controlled trials with almost 1,700 participants. The researchers concluded that spinal manipulative therapy can modestly improve pain and function in people with acute low-back pain.
  • Results of a 2018 study with 750 active duty U.S. military personnel with low-back pain found that those who received chiropractic care in addition to usual care had better short-term improvements in low-back pain intensity and pain-related disability than those who only received usual medical care.
For Neck Pain
  • For patients with acute neck pain, either spinal manipulation or home exercises appeared to be more effective than medication in the short and long term, an NCCIH-funded study of 272 patients showed in 2012. A 2015 research review that looked at results from 51 trials with 2,920 participants also reported that theres weak evidence that spinal manipulation may provide short-term relief from acute or chronic neck pain.
For Headache
  • For preventing migraines, spinal manipulation may be one of several complementary health approaches (including massage therapy) thats as helpful as medications used for migraine prevention, but the research isnt conclusive.
  • The AHRQ systematic review of noninvasive nonpharmacologic treatment for chronic pain reported spinal manipulation therapy was associated with slight to moderate improvements in function compared to usual care on the Headache Impact Test and the Headache Disability Inventory (scale 0-100) and in pain over the short term (i.e., 1-6 months) in one trial. The standard of evidence was rated as low.
For Other Conditions:
  • Researchers have studied spinal manipulation for many other conditions, including fibromyalgia, childrens ear infections, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), infant colic, and bedwetting, but theres too little evidence to know if it helps with these problems.
  • Spinal manipulation doesnt help with asthma, hypertension, or menstrual pain, studies show.



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QueenCarly
04/18/21 8:32:31 PM
#83:


Imagine simping this hard for scam artists

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XxKrazyChaosxX
04/18/21 8:33:37 PM
#84:


I haven't watched Family Guy in years but I came across this clip a few weeks back and it cracked me up.

https://youtu.be/DN8E9H0WlVs

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Chicken
04/18/21 8:33:49 PM
#85:


QueenCarly posted...
Imagine simping this hard for scam artists
If I were a chiropractor Id be rock fucking hard right now

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:36:00 PM
#86:


markconigliaro posted...
So I actually did watch the videos, well skim through them, mainly watched the beginning of video 1 and the end of video 2, as TC suggested.

We all know that chiropractors can have short term benefits/relief, even the people against chiro's have admitted that, and that's exactly what I see in the videos. Yes she walks better by the end, but they didn't give an update after some time has passed, they didn't show a new x-ray showing the spine is better. All the videos showed was someone walking a little better directly after an adjustment.

It's very likely she was back to her old walk the next day or a few days later. The problem is chiropractors don't actually fix anything. If you think you need to go to a chiropractor, go to physical therapy instead and work with real doctors, then the problem might actually get fixed. Those videos proved absolutely nothing.

Thank you for at least checking the videos. It is worth noting the videos happen over 3 visits and the biggest changes happen between the sessions and not during them (though the pain relief seems to happen during). For example she went from requiring crutches to not needing them by the start of visit 3. You could attribute that to some faith healer placebo but I don't think she'd be able to manage that level of delusion over the period of several weeks.

Finally thank you very much for not claiming that everybody involved is somehow a paid actor or that government agencies are fake. Responding to such things in this topic has been taxing.

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hockeybub89
04/18/21 8:37:30 PM
#87:


joe40001 posted...
is very similar to something like that of acupuncture (are they still laughing at that)?
lol acupuncture? Got any essential oils you want to sell me?

Someone better tell orthopedists that chiropractors can do their work in less time with less education. They'll feel silly.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:40:54 PM
#89:


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28399251/

Main outcomes and measures: Pain (measured by either the 100-mm visual analog scale, 11-point numeric rating scale, or other numeric pain scale), function (measured by the 24-point Roland Morris Disability Questionnaire or Oswestry Disability Index [range, 0-100]), or any harms measured within 6 weeks.

Findings: Of 26 eligible RCTs identified, 15 RCTs (1711 patients) provided moderate-quality evidence that SMT has a statistically significant association with improvements in pain (pooled mean improvement in the 100-mm visual analog pain scale, -9.95 [95% CI, -15.6 to -4.3]). Twelve RCTs (1381 patients) produced moderate-quality evidence that SMT has a statistically significant association with improvements in function (pooled mean effect size, -0.39 [95% CI, -0.71 to -0.07]). Heterogeneity was not explained by type of clinician performing SMT, type of manipulation, study quality, or whether SMT was given alone or as part of a package of therapies. No RCT reported any serious adverse event. Minor transient adverse events such as increased pain, muscle stiffness, and headache were reported 50% to 67% of the time in large case series of patients treated with SMT.

Conclusions and relevance: Among patients with acute low back pain, spinal manipulative therapy was associated with modest improvements in pain and function at up to 6 weeks, with transient minor musculoskeletal harms. However, heterogeneity in study results was large.

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Jabodie
04/18/21 8:40:56 PM
#90:


NCCIH, formerly NCCAM, is controversial and has a history of poor credibility and funding substandard research. It seems to have very little credibility in the scientific community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_Complementary_and_Integrative_Health

They are essentially a quack science factory, and experts of wasting money.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:45:04 PM
#91:


dolomedes posted...
as her body heals from whatever adjustment he did to her maybe?

nobody said she's a paid actor. they said this is an advertisement for a chiropractor's business, which it is. she's not getting paid, she's paying him - and so are you, by watching his videos.

the nccih is not fake. it is unfortunately very real. it is viewed as problematic by the scientific and medical communities at large.

Why would investigating alternative medicine scientifically be bad? Most of it will be bullshit, but finding out which parts might have something through science seems useful, and being sure the bullshit is bullshit also seems useful.

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#92
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joe40001
04/18/21 8:46:52 PM
#93:


Tyranthraxus posted...
Lmfao



Yeah hold on while I adjust my spine to help fight off COVID.

Yeah, there are stupid people out there for sure

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:47:55 PM
#94:


dolomedes posted...
"Acupuncture is a popular alternative protocol. [NCCIH] funding grants for acupuncture over eleven years, 2000 2011, have totaled $78 million (240 grants for fifty-eight clinical trials),with one posted result that published no conclusion on the efficacy of this intervention for depression. In a recent publication in the peer-reviewed medical journal Pain, Ernst et al. (2011) studied the literature since 2000, across all languages, and concluded that numerous systematic reviews have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective in reducing pain. The paper also reported on adverse effects of the protocol."

Source?


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boshafty
04/18/21 8:52:42 PM
#98:


They don't exist. Might as well go to a faith healer or a voodoo doctor.

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Chicken
04/18/21 8:54:23 PM
#99:


might become a chiropractor so I can jerk off to this thread.

not like itd be difficult.

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joe40001
04/18/21 8:55:20 PM
#100:


Jabodie posted...
NCCIH, formerly NCCAM, is controversial and has a history of poor credibility and funding substandard research. It seems to have very little credibility in the scientific community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_Complementary_and_Integrative_Health

They are essentially a quack science factory, and experts of wasting money.

I agree it looks like they are wasting a lot of money, but it's also worth noting that none of their investigations into the efficacy of bullshit made any claims that any of the bullshit was effective.

Furthermore (I could be wrong) I do not believe the studies I just listed that I got from their website were done by them. So take this for example:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28399251/
Findings: Of 26 eligible RCTs identified, 15 RCTs (1711 patients) provided moderate-quality evidence that SMT has a statistically significant association with improvements in pain (pooled mean improvement in the 100-mm visual analog pain scale, -9.95 [95% CI, -15.6 to -4.3]). Twelve RCTs (1381 patients) produced moderate-quality evidence that SMT has a statistically significant association with improvements in function (pooled mean effect size, -0.39 [95% CI, -0.71 to -0.07]). Heterogeneity was not explained by type of clinician performing SMT, type of manipulation, study quality, or whether SMT was given alone or as part of a package of therapies. No RCT reported any serious adverse event. Minor transient adverse events such as increased pain, muscle stiffness, and headache were reported 50% to 67% of the time in large case series of patients treated with SMT.
Conclusions and relevance: Among patients with acute low back pain, spinal manipulative therapy was associated with modest improvements in pain and function at up to 6 weeks, with transient minor musculoskeletal harms. However, heterogeneity in study results was large.

This is from The Journal of the American Medical Association (a peer-reviewed medical journal)

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hockeybub89
04/18/21 8:56:46 PM
#101:


joe40001 posted...
Why would investigating alternative medicine scientifically be bad? Most of it will be bullshit, but finding out which parts might have something through science seems useful, and being sure the bullshit is bullshit also seems useful.
You don't do science by treating millions of people with something for a number of decades and then trying to prove that it's just as real as actual medicine. It should not exist as an option until it is proven to be medicine. Alternative medicine should not an industry. Would you support a drug company releasing a new medication publicly before it was even tested or approved?

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