Current Events > Manga regularly outsells comics in the west. What would be needed to change that

(+) Yeah! (+)

ssjevot posted...

Lot of people talking about feminism, woke, etc. Ignoring that manga outsold comics well before any of that that happened, and their sales in the US peaked long ago. Comics were always niche and really weren't competing in the same space manga does. Manga is competing with graphic novels for the most part.

I can't believe twitter SJWs have caused the comic market to decline since the 80s

ssjevot posted...

Lot of people talking about feminism, woke, etc. Ignoring that manga outsold comics well before any of that that happened, and their sales in the US peaked long ago. Comics were always niche and really weren't competing in the same space manga does. Manga is competing with graphic novels for the most part.

I'm not sure what to take from this post. Are graphic novels a different market from comics? I thought a lot of what we called graphic novels were actually compilations of releases that were originally serialized anyway

---

Squall28 posted...

It feels like comic book stories have gone on for too long, and it's become overly complex with multiverses and huge storylines. You don't even know where to start with it

For reals. Manga is simpler and easier to get into.

That said, comics are trash regardless of the country

---

Simple

• Stop with the woke shit.
• Hire better writers, editors, and artists and fire the crappy ones who constantly bashes fans online and falsely label anyone who criticizes them or their work as an -ist or a -phobe. Same goes for the people at the very top.
• Stop pandering to woke Twitter certain comic news sites as they're a bunch of frauds. Most of them don't even buy or read comics despite all the constant whining about "lack of diversity." They're fake fans and trolls who create multiple sock puppet accounts.
• Stop with the constant events that doesn't mean anything since everything goes back to the status quo, reboots, retcons like changing a straight character to being gay (Iceman, I'm talking to you.), and fake-out deaths and weddings.
• Lower the prices of comics.
• No more crap like the The New Warriors and X-Men: Childrens of the Atom reboots.
• Stop shoving unpopular characters down everyone's throats.
• Put comics in more places.
• Have a constant timeline in which characters actually gets a lot of needed development instead of being hit with "Ash Ketchum Syndrome" every few arcs. This leads to stagnation.
• Stop putting out characters of x race, y gender, and/or z sexuality which is shameless pandering, exploitation, and fetishization. Especially when it comes to characters who are LGBTQ+ and/or race and gender swapped of a well-established one. If a character is promoting as black female lesbian and doesn't have any other traits other than the surface-level ones, then that said character is shallow. At the end of the day, good characters are timeless because of how well-written they are. Not because off what he/she look like or who said character sleeps with.
• Use different distributors instead of Diamond.

---

Balrog0 posted...

I'm not sure what to take from this post. Are graphic novels a different market from comics? I thought a lot of what we called graphic novels were actually compilations of releases that were originally serialized anyway

Single story with same author/artist and a set beginning and ending. Most American comics are endless with many authors/artists rotating in and out, retcons, reboots, etc. That isn't manga, manga operates like graphic novels.

---

McgeesAlice808 posted...

lol this woke whining is so pathetic. Comic's stagnation of sales compared to manga happened way before the recent fixation on wokeness. And most manga also have tons of characters with non-conforming genders and sexualities and have progressive messages about equality and fighting against authority (albeit maybe less ham-fisted). Some of the other stuff like Ash Ketchum syndrome and countless reboots are valid though

Can you imagine Gundam IBO if it wasn't anime? OMG gay people and cucks everywhere, taking a stand against child soldiers and war profiteering, SJW propaganda! These people are ridiculous.

---

Squall28 posted...

It feels like comic book stories have gone on for too long, and it's become overly complex with multiverses and huge storylines. You don't even know where to start with it

Just start at the beginning. When I first got into comics I read every issue of Amazing Spider-man from the start and got caught up with the latest issues. It only took a month and a half. The real reason why people dont read American comics as much as manga is that the stories just arent as interesting usually. You know that its going to keep going on forever so theres less tension

---

ssjevot posted...

Single story with same author/artist and a set beginning and ending. Most American comics are endless with many authors/artists rotating in and out, retcons, reboots, etc. That isn't manga, manga operates like graphic novels.

But that's what I'm asking you about, most of what we call graphic novels are literally just comics that have been serialized and then collected into one book. You're acting like they're separate things and audiences but I don't understand how, given that.

---

People are talking about smaller western comics a lot so that's a good point- those series don't have much advertising

I have literally no idea and haven't heard about any non-Marvel/DC stuff except Walking Dead, Fables, and Archie (oh and Power Rangers)

... but I guess Fables is DC too?

So the anime connection definitely helps manga. Free advertising. It's also just more accessible culturally, with a much bigger and more vocal fandom to write about stuff and get it on different news outlets

The only thing in the west with any kind of reach are the superhero stuff from Marvel and DC, but the crazy inaccessibility of the history and events, plus the limits of writing characters that will just keep being used, revived, and wildly changed keep that stuff from appealing to people even with the wider audiences reached by movies and shows

---

I don't mind side stories, as some of them are fantastic, but its oversaturated atm. Take batman for example, there have been at least 10 different batman side stories going on in different universes. From Sherlock Batman, to Feudal Japan Batman, to Joker that Laughs, to the 3 Jokers. It's hard to keep up with what is technically canon.

If it were me, I'd bring out a base set of books which deal in the original storyline of each superhero, and have them in novel form similar to manga, no color. Call it the classic series.

Comics are designed by nature to be short bursts with repeating villains. Manga are designed so the plot happens over 20+ issues. With comics they don't tend to go longer than a couple issues wherein lies the problem. You know the formula. Joker does something bad, Batman confronts him, Joker escapes, Batman catches and jails Joker, Joker escapes Arkham. Rinse and Repeat. You can't kill off Batman villains, so they keep coming back. Most of the time your mainstay comics don't like killing off major villains.

Manga on the other hand have no issue with killing off major villains as they can always make another one. But it doesn't just happen over 1 issue. There is build up, loss, an eventual training arc, and confrontation with the villain followed by a gigantic battle scene lasting multiple issues. Take Naruto for example. The entirety of the Gaara vs Rock Lee fight lasted nearly 2 episodes, you would never see that in a comic book tv show.

If comics are to catch up to Manga they need to reinvent themselves. Be willing to have the very lengthy fight scenes, build a character up instead of him being overpowered from the beginning but refuse to kill because of some "Moral Code".

Personally I'd like to see them abandon the giant comic format and head towards a thick book format like manga. Something that is between 100-150 pages of panels.

I remember when we used to make fun of mangas for being edgy but comics have really stepped it up in that regard. Like the Batman who laughs which is one of the worst villains I've ever seen in fiction. So glad they finally killed him off but then again they might just bring him back.

---

Balrog0 posted...

But that's what I'm asking you about, most of what we call graphic novels are literally just comics that have been serialized and then collected into one book. You're acting like they're separate things and audiences but I don't understand how, given that.

I'm talking about Watchmen, Y The Last Man, whatever you call that stuff with the same author and artist the whole way through and a set beginning and end. You can use another label if it bothers you. I am talking about stuff that is actually competing in the same space as manga. X-Men or Superman for example are nothing like any manga series. It's a totally different format, style, etc. for the aforementioned reasons.

---

ssjevot posted...

I'm talking about Watchmen, Y The Last Man, whatever you call that stuff with the same author and artist the whole way through and a set beginning and end. You can use another label if it bothers you. I am talking about stuff that is actually competing in the same space as manga. X-Men or Superman for example are nothing like any manga series. It's a totally different format, style, etc. for the aforementioned reasons.

I'm not "bothered" by anything, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Watchmen is an example of what I'm talking about, it was released serialized and later collected into one book. You can find countless examples of this happening within the context of weekly/monthly super hero comics, the first that comes to mind is "batman: year one" which is obviously an example of a really long running super hero comic but also an example of a story with one writer and a set beginning and end.

You're acting like these two formats are distinct things with distinct audiences, but that's not true -- at least from what I can tell.


---

Squall28 posted...

It feels like comic book stories have gone on for too long, and it's become overly complex with multiverses and huge storylines. You don't even know where to start with it

Yeah this. A lot of modern comic storylines require the reader to have prior knowledge of what occurred before it. Which wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that often times, these story arcs are spread out across a bunch of different books and it's impossible to keep up with it all without resorting to an online guide of what titles you need to read and when everything is supposed to take place in relation to one another.

With manga, everything is a bit more self-contained and streamlined.

---

ChrisTaka posted...

I'd ask you to name a couple but then I bet you'd start naming really obscure ones lol

Donald Trump shows up in Death Note

---

Remove the hyperpartisanism or at tone it way down, there's a reason why comic book movies sell like no tomorrow but comics don't, nearly all of the movies have little to no hyperpartisanism in them.
---

Balrog0 posted...

I'm not "bothered" by anything, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Watchmen is an example of what I'm talking about, it was released serialized and later collected into one book. You can find countless examples of this happening within the context of weekly/monthly super hero comics, the first that comes to mind is "batman: year one" which is obviously an example of a really long running super hero comic but also an example of a story with one writer and a set beginning and end.

You're acting like these two formats are distinct things with distinct audiences, but that's not true -- at least from what I can tell.

It's really not that different than Manga. Chapters come out in a magazine comprised of many other series and later on once the volume is complete, it gets its own book. I think you're missing what he's honing in on. He's not saying what makes something a graphic novel is it being all in one book.

A series like the Watchmen vs Batman only has one writer. Yes, a specific comic might have one writer all the way through, but it's still pretty murky. If I tell you I read Batman, that's very vague and open ended. You don't know what exactly I'm reading. I tell you I'm reading The Watchmen, Scott Pilgrim, or the Walking Dead, there's not a whole lot up to interpretation. Graphic Novels, while they may be released in chunks, are their own entity.

---

McgeesAlice808 posted...

lol this woke whining is so pathetic. Comic's stagnation of sales compared to manga happened way before the recent fixation on wokeness. And most manga also have tons of characters with non-conforming genders and sexualities and have progressive messages about equality and fighting against authority (albeit maybe less ham-fisted). Some of the other stuff like Ash Ketchum syndrome and countless reboots are valid though

The comics was already on a decline before that which is true. The woke shit just accelerated it.

turn comics into manga, if you can't beat em, join em.

---

Wtf is "woke shit" and "huperpartisanism"

Like examples?

---

Big

Anime

Tiddies

---

Doom_Art posted...

Wtf is "woke shit" and "huperpartisanism"

Like examples?

This video by Appabend explain it in this old video. At 2:57 it start showing some of the images and writings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJbA4iLjGUM

This old video from The4thSnake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsM2cQ_7xEI

This also by The4thSnake talking about the horrible change to She-Hulk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auR6JfyFHH4

---

I mean, I'd rather not have to watch several videos from Youtubers I dislike. Is there any way you could articulate it yourself?

---

"I'll try blaming wokeness, that's a neat trick!" - like fifty fucking people who probably think they're unique and special lads ITT

---

Manga are self-contained stories. Western comics are dominated by Marvel and DC rehashing the things with their superheroes and never progressing. They can't make meaningful change. Because their properties need to continue forever.

---