Current Events > Have you guys considered that MAYBE conservatives don't see the real reasons why

(+) Yeah! (+)

Agreed, if there's a chance to convert them then you should. Only a Sith believes in Absolution. Some of y'all are filled with too much bloodlust and you need to really help yourself first.

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Maybe if they used their brains and stop voting for people literally worse than cartoon villains.

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Honestly, most of this stuff, the media is making people delusional if people weren't already. Most boomers worked pretty simple lives in service to other people and didn't partake so much in the upper class either because of all the drugs and crime of people like trump. It really hasn't changed much except there is more opportunity for younger people now and they are trying to make the environment safer. Unfortunately our leaders are not exactly with it and i think they know this and they want younger people to be but they aren't exactly either.

And people are still capitalistic pigs and it's about driving america where things are being created and bought and sold. Otherwise there is no economy to speak of and a lot of that is in entertainment and the lies. They need to fill air time and are polluting peoples minds.

Boomers were not that wealthy as it seems. Their jobs were also not that exciting. And if you look around you people are still working in those environments. That's half the issue with people too is the lies... People getting rich off doing not so great things.

People assign Trump to right wing ideology and that's not really fair. And liberals will use it that way too. The republican party is basically useless at this point and so are most politicians other than clogging up the process and making stupid rules. There is some progression hopefully.

shockthemonkey posted...

The whole conservatives will help you personally but vote against anyone who will help you does not make them seem as virtuous as you people think it does

It just makes them seem extremely ignorant and/or malicious.
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This country needs to readjust it's goggles and that takes time apparently. I think they like it that way too because people are getting rich off spewing crap. Is Jake Paul really the answer?

yall need to find jesus and let go of the hate

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shockthemonkey posted...

The whole conservatives will help you personally but vote against anyone who will help you does not make them seem as virtuous as you people think it does

And the liberal who will vote for someone that helps you, but treat you like garbage to your face isn't as virtuous as you think they are.

Guess which one you are.

You're basically the poster boy for someone who I agree with politically the vast majority of the time, but you seem like a completely unpleasant person to interact with.

No doubt, you've come into this topic with one of the most black and white perspectives of anybody.

Also, there's a difference between being well informed and well intentioned

Go and spend some time in a small town and interacting with people. It becomes obvious that much like many large scale social phenomenons like student loan debt that it is much more about sociological influences than individuals making decisions. It's just a totally different world out there. People's social circles are much smaller and more tied to their church. It's not easy to go against the herd in any context.

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shockthemonkey posted...

The whole conservatives will help you personally but vote against anyone who will help you does not make them seem as virtuous as you people think it does

I generally don't find that conservatives are driven by a desire to not help you (politically), even if that is how it plays out in the end.

People are scared and stupid more often than they are bad.

Like, if you get involved in social work and deal with young offenders, people from bad homes, drug addicts, homeless people, just ask any of those people who they'd vote for (it's never left). Oddly, it seems obvious in that case that their virulent hateful ideologies are a consequence of their environment, but we somehow can't attribute any of that nuance to just regular people too...

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Paulo Coelho or Jake Paul. Hmmm. I guess there is nothing wrong with either and some people like it. But as you get older you do worry sometimes if people get too wealthy too soon. Or too late. The amount of distractions oout there in general is a bit much and I can't say all of it is that great. Not bigotted or hateful but it's oversaturation of a lot of people who talk a lot of nothing and are hateful themselves. I guess they are fulfilled and wealthy. Something can be learned from them and people follow them I guess. Not really my thing.

TommyG663513 posted...

And the liberal who will vote for someone that helps you, but treat you like garbage to your face isn't as virtuous as you think they are.

Is this a person you've met, Tommy?

Why do you think this person is "treating you like garbage to your face"?

EDIT: Also how are they treating you like garbage?

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TommyG663513 posted...

And the liberal who will vote for someone that helps you, but treat you like garbage to your face isn't as virtuous as you think they are.

I've read a study a long time ago about people being jerks after recycling because their psych is like hey recycling balances out my assholery so it's ok.

People are more than their votes, and getting blue in office isn't going to make it all sunshine and rainbows.


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conservos too evil to see why they are evil

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Everyone is a conservative in some way. If you really read Paul Coelho he's basically rehashing what has been done by zen masters before. It's nothing really new. Being hateful of his success is the issue and not learning yourself. But really after a while it's oversaturation of the same things.

he found a way to make money. And find his own success. Good for him. But by the same token him thinking he is better than other people or he is because he did is a bit of a misnomer. He's lucky. And I really think a lot of his success is just luck and who he was being at the right place at the right time.

I could talk to the someone on the street asking for change tomorrow telling me the same things. And nothing wrong with that either. you have to start somewhere.

CyricZ posted...

Is this a person you've met, Tommy?

Why do you think this person is "treating you like garbage to your face"?

EDIT: Also how are they treating you like garbage?

I've met many people like this. Displaying virtues is not the same as being a virtuous person.

Also, those who talk of the virtue of taking care of those less fortunate, but don't ever participate in any real charity work or donate their time or money in any real way.

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Squall28 posted...

I've read a study a long time ago about people being jerks after recycling because their psych is like hey recycling balances out my assholery so it's ok.

People are more than their votes, and getting blue in office isn't going to make it all sunshine and rainbows.

And honestly going Blue is such a basic AF thing at this point. The more difficult thing is making what passes as Blue much better. My state (MN) has a Blue governor who has been extremely ineffective at handling the protests and has mostly appealed to the wants and needs of law enforcement. Basically, he's been more eager to give more leeway to how law enforcement handles protestors than to addressing the reason the protestors are out in the first place.

A lot of people have been roasting him very harshly over this for weeks. I don't know wtf I'm gonna do next election because this feels pretty unforgivable, but I know the Republican candidate is very likely to be much worse than the current Democratic Governor that I highly disapprove of.

Voting alone isn't much. There's a lot to be done in improving the Democratic party

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Paul Coelho is a perfect example of someone who used his conservative values to make him liberal. Even though how people attribute conservatism to christianity and white people. The actual meaning of conservative is traditional values. What these politicians are now are just something else entirely and conservative in and of itself. It's the same people running. The left is more progressive. The republican party is there to stick a fork in the road. And they aren't even doing a good job of it. Trump basically did nothing except make a lot of people money and himself. Including the left and confuse people even more. Trump made the left a lot of money just talking about him. And wasted a lot of other peoples time.

Paulo Coelho is as much jesus christ in the modern day as trump is to some people. Except Trump really backfired for a lot of people.

CalypsoDoom posted...

That's absolutely a fair take and I understand where you're coming from, but it's not a good response to "hey these people are espousing racist beliefs and should be corrected".

Problematic conservative beliefs go well beyond just racism so I wouldn't limit it to just that

My point here is that a lot of oh so liberal virtuous people don't "correct" racist beliefs. They're just out to yell and scream bigot. Correcting someone's racism involves some sort of real attempt at trying to understand the person. Some people can be somewhat decent, but have lots of influences around them that turns them to racist beliefs. You can obviously apply this to all sorts of beliefs beyond racism.

It's difficult to try and tell someone that every influence they've had in their life led them astray in one way or another. Like you aren't just calling them racist, but everyone in their family and their community and you may not be wrong in saying that. It's understandable that people would be resistant to that.

I say this as someone who grew up in the Catholic church who had tons of other people around me my age who grew up right wing, but became more left wing through high school and college. Many of us still have right wing family members we deal with to this day. It wasn't an overnight process to be taught to be so pro life all of my life and become very strongly pro choice. No one who ever shouted at me helped me along that path.

There is no doubt that we all deal with various levels of influence well outside of our own control that we try to sort through all of the time. We should all be able to relate from here and try to look for understanding.

Obviously, I think racism and other problematic beliefs should be corrected, but I think way too many people attacking these problematic belief systems and people are doing it more for a pat on the back than a real interest in making change happen.

Everytime I see a "woke" person scream at someone for being anti mask or anti vax I want to pull my hair out. There is an extremely long discussion going on in the medical community about how to encourage compliance with public health measures. At no point, have medical professionals, whose entire goal is public health, have advocated for yelling at people. I recall Dr. Birx discussing this on a visit she made to many rural areas to try and discover how they could better deliver messages to rural people and encourage better compliance.

A lot of this anger and frustrations directed at those espousing problematic beliefs just isn't helping. People still.need to have some compassion in attempting to convince someone with a problematic belief to believe otherwise. Not because that person deserves it, but treating them with compassion will be the best way to convince them of otherwise.

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TommyG663513 posted...

My point here is that a lot of oh so liberal virtuous people don't "correct" racist beliefs. They're just out to yell and scream bigot. Correcting someone's racism involves some sort of real attempt at trying to understand the person. Some people can be somewhat decent, but have lots of influences around them that turns them to racist beliefs. You can obviously apply this to all sorts of beliefs beyond racism.

It is either yell at em or ignore em. There is literally no way to correct racist beliefs of random strangers on the internet. The only way that can maybe, just maybe work is if a friend spends years trying to fix them. Thats not going to happen on the internet.

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LightHawKnight posted...

It is either yell at em or ignore em. There is literally no way to correct racist beliefs of random strangers on the internet. The only way that can maybe, just maybe work is if a friend spends years trying to fix them. Thats not going to happen on the internet.

Well yeah on the internet, but there's people that you know on various levels in real life that you can correct here or there. I mean, it depends on how well you know the person.

Though sometimes internet people can be reasonable.

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I tend to think it's more disillusionment and conservatives and liberals can be more woke and vice versa but in reverse. Liberals tend to be younger and have a fighting chance. Why democracy will usually win in the end. Conservatives can be very woke about what is going on but they fall back on their more traditional values and don't stand a fighting chance. Why democracy keeps chipping away at "america" at least how conservatives see it

But really there are all sorts of people out there who aren't as woke as they think and have no clue what surrounds them except their own belief systems. That's a real shame too. The fact people are even put in these boxes to begin with. There are other ways.

People fall in and out of illusionment. They become disillusioned. Particularly highly intelligent people. It's a shame too. Try not being crazy in this crazy world sometime.

CyricZ posted...

Expected Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

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TommyG663513 posted...

Well yeah on the internet, but there's people that you know on various levels in real life that you can correct here or there. I mean, it depends on how well you know the person.

Though sometimes internet people can be reasonable.

You act as if it is easy to correct here and there. It is incredibly hard to even change family members let alone coworkers or random people you meet in real life.

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LightHawKnight posted...

You act as if it is easy to correct here and there. It is incredibly hard to even change family members let alone coworkers or random people you meet in real life.

Correct it's extremely hard for anyone to change but if there is a chance you should try it. One converted person becomes an ally.

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They think its a slippery slope to the collapse of civilization if we don't uphold unjust hierarchies and maintain nonsensical traditions that benefit the heads of these hierarchies, despite the fact that those things are the worst part of civilization. Things which threaten any aspect of those positions are met with immediate doubt and paranoid levels of scrutiny. They also have a generally short sighted binary view of the world, lacking in critical thinking, which is why they conflate liberals with leftists, despite liberals being on the same side as them when it comes to maintaining the status quo and upholding one particular unjust hierarchy (capitalism). They also have a highly individualistic view of the world, which is naive, sentimental crap, and also just wrong. As a result of this world view, non-conservative thought seems absolutely nonsensical, and they don't believe things like empathy or social responsibility are even real.

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Veggeta X posted...

Correct it's extremely hard for anyone to change but if there is a chance you should try it. One converted person becomes an ally.

But there is no chance unless you spend years softening them up first and one little mistake ruins everything you built up. That takes way too much effort for most people.

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TommyG663513 posted...

Well yeah on the internet, but there's people that you know on various levels in real life that you can correct here or there. I mean, it depends on how well you know the person.

Though sometimes internet people can be reasonable.

My job isn't to make them better people. That's on them. My job is to try and protect the people they hate. I only have enough time and energy for one.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

My job isn't to make them better people. That's on them. My job is to try and protect the people they hate. I only have enough time and energy for one.

Unwilling to educate the ignorant is a problem and shows lack of integrity.

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Veggeta X posted...

Unwilling to educate the ignorant is a problem and shows lack of integrity.

Being less willing to stand up for the innocent because you're busy reforming The Joker is peak lib.

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People who spent maybe 30 minutes every 4 years filling out a ballot are acting like they are on some sort of crusade for the "innocent."

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LightHawKnight posted...

You act as if it is easy to correct here and there. It is incredibly hard to even change family members let alone coworkers or random people you meet in real life.

I mean, I grew up right wing and I changed. I guess I just feel J may have more understanding for someone being willing to transition their beliefs. I don't know what your experiences are.

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Expected Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

EDIT: I see others have already said exactly this lmao

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Veggeta X posted...

Unwilling to educate the ignorant is a problem and shows lack of integrity.

Look man, I work in a factory in Missouri, that particular crowd doesn't want to be educated. The ones that do, I talk to, the rest want to ramble on about rampaging hordes of black people. I'm not wasting my breath on that bucnh.

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I've honestly considered this about a lot of people really. Anyone has the capacity to do bad things. Even who judges what that is. It's like the flavor of the day and a lot of people are simply incapable of looking at things outside of their goggles as to why things happen at all. People are put in bad situations they sometimes make mistakes. It happens. Why they were put in that position. Some people see it like it's how you deal with it and that's true but that can go in a lot of directions. Not everything is black and white and liberal or conservative either.

Sometimes it's not even what is going on and is someone else's delusion. There are manipulative people out there. How they see right and wrong and see things at all. I've seen it. It's not overly good when it happens either. It's good to respect people in that regard. But sometimes people don't have a choice.

People are put in prisons for crimes they didn't even commit sometimes. It's the flavor of the day. All of a sudden you are in a turkish prison being abused because turkish law says so or vice versa and yeah that's true and self explanatory but sometimes it's not even that. It's just ridiculous. Sometimes people don't even understand their own laws or what the law even is.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Look man, I work in a factory in Missouri, that particular crowd doesn't want to be educated. The ones that do, I talk to, the rest want to ramble on about rampaging hordes of black people. I'm not wasting my breath on that bucnh.

Hey if you concluded the person won't and can't change then yeah let them be. Can't help someone who can't be helped.

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People can be hypocrites sometimes. They don't see the truth even if it's right in front of them. Even if you do. It's a fact of "life". Or is it. People do horrible things and the victim gets blamed sometimes. The truth, the whole truth and everything else. There are clueless people out there who have a clue too. They just don't see it.

Sadly TC, there's a lot of sociopathy online. Understanding the other side means you see them as human at least enough to indulge them, and who wants that when it slows down getting what WE want. Yes, the right wing is bad for this, but the left has responded with seeing cartoon supervillains in people that just aren't giving you everything you want right fucking now for nothing in return. If you question this even in the sense of a little give to actually get more than a fight is achieving you get looked at funny, to the point I do believe that many leftist activists really do see other people as objects, there to take from, there to demand labor from, there to expect to follow a social code, and get nothing for themselves for the effort, even a tacit "thank you". It's antithetical to those of us that knew growing up that if we wanted something from our parents, we'd have to suck up, do chores, or otherwise give a bit back. And of course, it's easier to think supervillain than admit you're kind of being selfish and demanding, if not out right abusive and cruel.

It\s why I started listening to them and realized something, they aren't any happier with things than we are, but have more of a "if we all pitch in and quit being fuck ups, the world would be a lot better" view as opposed to "raise taxes and the government will fix all our fuck ups so we don't have to stop making them" one. Neither view is perfect, but the latter is self serving more than the first one. Hell, we're often so stupid we think people should just love spending all their time and effort doing for others getting nothing back from those they give to. That they aren't mad there's often no line for them to have something better because of so many NEETs, junkies, refugees, and others taking everything before they get there, and shoving them out if they try to get in on something.

Work hard so we don't have to is becoming the mantra of the left, and we wonder why those remaining in the "working" part of the equation may be upset. They want us all to pitch in so that hey, maybe with more hands doing and less hands demanding, we can have more done in less time and knock off by Wednesday, instead of they get to continue to work 3 jobs under one title and 60 hour weeks for people working none.

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nfearurspecimn posted...

You guys are right and that they have their own ideas that people on the left are unaware of? Like maybe they aren't all in bad faith, so to speak, just ignorant.

Yes. I'm always telling people here to remember Hanlon's razor.

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lightwarrior78 posted...

you get looked at funny

By far the harshest punishment.

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TommyG663513 posted...

I mean, I grew up right wing and I changed. I guess I just feel J may have more understanding for someone being willing to transition their beliefs. I don't know what your experiences are.

My friend also grew up super conservative, stopped being one after college and he has spent decades trying to convince his family not to be. Haven't changed. Most people rather not deal with spending that much effort to get little to nothing done.

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Veggeta X posted...

Unwilling to educate the ignorant is a problem and shows lack of integrity.

You know if you changed "educate" to "save" you will sound just like a Christian missionary.