Current Events > A topic about gender dysphoria

(+) Yeah! (+)

matchboxsantana posted...

I come with this topic with questions. There are many dishonest fucks in the www, I am not one of them. I am pro-trans, but I wish to know about something I have been wondering but afraid to ask because people could think I am anti-trans (I am not).

Isn't gender a social construct? Meaning that we humans came up with ideas of what is manly and womanly. In the past pink was supposed to be the color for boys because it was seen as baby-red, and red is the color of blood and gore: https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/05/01/pink-blue/

We are born with a set of genitals, which is sex. We then decided to attribute certain characteristics to the bearers of said genitals, and came up with the ideas we now know as gender. The article I linked to above even explains that boys and girls used to wear dresses in the past too.

So what am I missing? Again, I am pro-trans and use the pronouns people ask me too and all that and I accept people for the gender they want to be. I just want to understand this theory considering gender is as far as I know a social constuct.

I've made an effort to explain my understanding of gender and speculate on the inner workings of gender in relation to body chemistry, and ultimately I don't think I have all the answers.

What I will say is that I think there are multiple separate philosophies regarding gender, and I'm not super equipped to go into most/all of them. Discourse changes over time. Gender being a social construct is one philosophy, post #27 is a big ramble from me about hormones and the role of perception in gender identity and stuff if that helps.

Like I said before, I'm pretty tired, so I'm gonna go to bed now

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matchboxsantana posted...

Isn't gender a social construct? Meaning that we humans came up with ideas of what is manly and womanly. In the past pink was supposed to be the color for boys because it was seen as baby-red, and red is the color of blood and gore: https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/05/01/pink-blue/

We are born with a set of genitals, which is sex. We then decided to attribute certain characteristics to the bearers of said genitals, and came up with the ideas we now know as gender. The article I linked to above even explains that boys and girls used to wear dresses in the past too.

So what am I missing?

it's true that gender is a social construct, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have real-world effects on the way people behave and feel.

in addition, as I laid out in post 28, "sex" is also socially constructed to a large extent -- it's a hell of a lot more complicated than "penis or vagina"

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Yeah, you really shouldn't underestimate how powerful social norms are. Just because they're socially-constructed doesn't mean they don't bend and shape our social reality. Like, completely.

Some gender roles being socially constructed does not imply that gender is just a social construct. We know that it is not even just based on the existence of transpeople.

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MrMallard posted...

I've made an effort to explain my understanding of gender and speculate on the inner workings of gender in relation to body chemistry, and ultimately I don't think I have all the answers.

What I will say is that I think there are multiple separate philosophies regarding gender, and I'm not super equipped to go into most/all of them. Discourse changes over time. Gender being a social construct is one philosophy, post #27 is a big ramble from me about hormones and the role of perception in gender identity and stuff if that helps.

Like I said before, I'm pretty tired, so I'm gonna go to bed now

Thanks for your efforts, I appreciate it, and you have provided a lot of valuable information here.

I am a bit pissed that CE has such a high trans population and none of them is willing to help me understand this.

COVxy posted...

Some gender roles being socially constructed does not imply that gender is just a social construct. We know that it is not even just based on the existence of transpeople.

Think about tigers. There is no tiger-gender. There are just tigers with certain sexual preferences, that's it. Gender is a uniquely human condition, for which I tend to think it's cultural, but I can't find any information to educate me more on this.

wow. i answer questions all the time.

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matchboxsantana posted...

Think about tigers. There is no tiger-gender. There are just tigers with certain sexual preferences, that's it. Gender is a uniquely human condition, for which I tend to think it's cultural, but I can't find any information to educate me more on this.

Animals have all sorts of sex specific behavior. Things like juvenile play behavior, for instance.

Interestingly enough, we can manipulate developmental events that alter these types of behavior, and these effects are durable, often not changing after a critical period.

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Guide posted...

Genitals develop before the brain does, and if there's an imbalance of hormones within the mother between the genitals and the brain forming, you can have a brain that's accustomed to estrogen production despite a body with a penis and testes that primarily produces testosterone, or vice versa. That's speculated to be how you get trans people.

so in the end it really is the parents fault ?

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Guide posted...

This makes so much sense holy shit

this makes perfect medical sense - someone whos not a doctor

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armandro posted...

DocileOrangeCup posted...

Do you ever make posts that aren't well written and informative

No that is just the way he talks
He has a gift
you should read his fanfiction

Go on...
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KINDERFELD posted...

I'm happy you're able to find opinions you agree with there. When you're ready to learn the facts, I'd encourage to look elsewhere, at more credible information that has been acquired through the use of scientific methods.

Are you actually intending to bring some of these "facts" of yours to the topic?

Or is this a "I can't share my opinion on trans people because I'll be moderated" thing?

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DrizztLink posted...

Are you actually intending to bring some of these "facts" of yours to the topic?

Or is this a "I can't share my opinion on trans people because I'll be moderated" thing?

its obvious what hes going for from his first post in this topic

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DespondentDeity posted...

its obvious what hes going for from his first post in this topic

If it was obvious that I'm trying to protect folks from the perspective harm that anecdotal evidence passed off as facts can have, then good. I'm happy its that obvious.

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Is that a no on sharing these alleged "facts" you keep talking about?

Because this is an excellent topic without your disingenuous shit, unless you'd like to actually back up a statement...?

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KINDERFELD posted...

perspective

do you mean prospective?

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DespondentDeity posted...

do you mean prospective?

Ty

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DrizztLink posted...

Are you actually intending to bring some of these "facts" of yours to the topic?

Or is this a "I can't share my opinion on trans people because I'll be moderated" thing?

C'mon, don't egg him on.

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Good topic Mallard. The topic was an interesting read on the bus to work this morning.

I personally have always leant towards the "social construct" gender idea, which has left me perplexed by some aspects of transgenderism/gender dysphoria. Thats not to say I try and enforce my ideas on others; I am very much of the opinion it isnt my right to tell people who or what they are. I certainly do my best to address people with their preferred pronouns when I am aware of them. As such, I typically have kept my opinions to myself because probably no one would care, except those who may take offense (namely transgender and non-binary people). Which is why I dont share my opinions, I am not looking to actively offend people. Anyway, with the please dont think I am transphobic out of the way

One thing I have always found strange is what gender truly means. Under the thought process that it is a social construct, I have come to two soft conclusions:
1. gender is somewhat meaningless; and,
2. we should be trying to break down what I interpret as gender barriers.

An example of what I mean by this is, men should be able to wear dresses and skirts. No questions, side glances or the like. It should just be socially acceptable. The ideal I am thinking of isnt necessarily gender neutral mind you, but I also cant really articulate the real meaning of gender anyway.

The one thing that always really gets me is transgender people who are comfortable in their bodies (i.e. they dont have a need or desire to transition through hormone therapies and/or surgery). This kind of makes sense in relation to what I have said above, if a man wants to wear a dress he should be allowed to. But this maybe a fairly amateur or even mediocre analysis of the subject matter.

I liked the topic a lot because it challenged my ideas with thought and philosophy I hadnt considered backing it up. Reading some of your posts I wonder if I have been non binary all this time without realising it. Maybe I subconsciously wish to subject others to my own view of what gender should be versus how it exists in the world? Or maybe I simply want to wear a skirt (I wouldnt in reality; too cold where I live)? Who knows? But as I dont believe gender has strong meaning to me I probably wont dwell on what I am, people can just call me whatever they like as long as I know they mean me.

I hope my post is coherent, and again I am not looking to invalidate anyone here. Fun fact, my browser refreshed twice while typing this so I ended up doing it the third time in MS Word :)))

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can someone help me understand why someone who is experiencing gender dysphoria feels the need to change their sex and body appearance to match the opposite sex, is it just social pressure? If we lived in a world where there was literally no pressure at all regarding gender roles, would they still transition?

ROOTFayth posted...

If we lived in a world where there was literally no pressure at all regarding gender roles, would they still transition?

some people would probably still transition. but probably less than the current numbers

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We tend to view transness as trans-vs-cis.

We tend to view queerness as straight-vs-gay.

In reality they are both 2-dimensional spectrums, not lines. There is also:

Fluid--------non-fluid
bi/pan/polysexual-----------monosexual

The reality is some trans people want a non-fluid identity that matches cis norms. And that's okay! I've actually know many progressive people who were confused by this.

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DEKMStephens posted...

Good topic Mallard. The topic was an interesting read on the bus to work this morning.

I personally have always leant towards the "social construct" gender idea, which has left me perplexed by some aspects of transgenderism/gender dysphoria. Thats not to say I try and enforce my ideas on others; I am very much of the opinion it isnt my right to tell people who or what they are. I certainly do my best to address people with their preferred pronouns when I am aware of them. As such, I typically have kept my opinions to myself because probably no one would care, except those who may take offense (namely transgender and non-binary people). Which is why I dont share my opinions, I am not looking to actively offend people. Anyway, with the please dont think I am transphobic out of the way

One thing I have always found strange is what gender truly means. Under the thought process that it is a social construct, I have come to two soft conclusions:
1. gender is somewhat meaningless; and,
2. we should be trying to break down what I interpret as gender barriers.

An example of what I mean by this is, men should be able to wear dresses and skirts. No questions, side glances or the like. It should just be socially acceptable. The ideal I am thinking of isnt necessarily gender neutral mind you, but I also cant really articulate the real meaning of gender anyway.

The one thing that always really gets me is transgender people who are comfortable in their bodies (i.e. they dont have a need or desire to transition through hormone therapies and/or surgery). This kind of makes sense in relation to what I have said above, if a man wants to wear a dress he should be allowed to. But this maybe a fairly amateur or even mediocre analysis of the subject matter.

I liked the topic a lot because it challenged my ideas with thought and philosophy I hadnt considered backing it up. Reading some of your posts I wonder if I have been non binary all this time without realising it. Maybe I subconsciously wish to subject others to my own view of what gender should be versus how it exists in the world? Or maybe I simply want to wear a skirt (I wouldnt in reality; too cold where I live)? Who knows? But as I dont believe gender has strong meaning to me I probably wont dwell on what I am, people can just call me whatever they like as long as I know they mean me.

I hope my post is coherent, and again I am not looking to invalidate anyone here. Fun fact, my browser refreshed twice while typing this so I ended up doing it the third time in MS Word :)))

Thanks for the fleshed out post. I understand that a broader discussion of gender can feel a bit taboo - most people are raised with a very rigid understanding of gender in relation to sex, which means that a lot of people who approach the topic of gender in relation to personal identity and transition and the like start as adults, and they're starting at square one. And whether that's the case or not, it's understandable that there's a pressure to not accidentally be transphobic - it's a sensitive subject.

I would still defer to a trans person on CE if they want to chime in, these are my thoughts as informed through my interest in the subject and the resources I've engaged with on the subject - but they aren't necessarily informed by a trans lens on my own part. I don't want to speak over trans voices, and I might not be speaking from the same position as a trans person with a lived experience - so I'll gladly cede to trans voices on anything I've already said or what I'm about to say.

To a degree, I agree that gender can be meaningless. Personally, I think some things are pointlessly gendered - whether it's something like a grizzled, manly deodorant that's presented in gunmetal grey and is meant to smell like wood shavings or a yoga-y feminine deodorant that smells like sandalwood and vanilla blossoms, or whether it's an entire vocation like nursing or mining.

As recently as 100 years ago, women couldn't vote or attain seats in parliament, because they weren't perceived as being capable of that sort of responsibility. Even today, you have people who are concerned about a female President of the United States over biological concerns. When in reality, there's not that much difference between roles that men and women can specialise in - if anything, it varies from person to person.

When I hear "gender is a social construct", I think of that stuff. And I also agree that what we perceive as feminine dress and presentation could easily be unisex and even utilitarian depending on where you live and what your job is like, the same way trousers became unisex. But I still think there would be hallmarks and standards of femininity that trans women would feel attuned to, and that trans men would feel a disconnect towards.

In post #27, my point boiled down to gender relying heavily on perception. If we lived in a world where women were seen as fighters and men were seen as nurturers, a trans woman in that world would covet that world's interpretation of femininity, and vice versa. You can see in both contemporary cultures around the world and in indigenous cultures going back thousands of years that third genders and alternative gender representation have existed this entire time without the same pearl-clutching biological absolutism that western society has fallen headfirst into - and what we perceive as explicitly gendered, such as styles of dress and standards of masculinity or femininity, doesn't carry over across all cultures. It varies.

In my opinion, gender is a function of the zeitgeist. We can have our own opinions and standards as to what masculinity or femininity are, but our view on the matter is informed by what our parents teach us, what we see on TV, how we perceive men and women to be according to what is socially acceptable.

It's how we perceive gender, and how those perceptions affect how we feel, that gives gender its individual meaning. What gender "is" is one part however you feel, and one part how the world around you presents it. And both of those aspects feed into each other pretty viciously.

As for gender dysphoria, the most surprising and humbling thing I've learned through the dysphoria bible is that dysphoria can manifest in so many different ways. And it's not just a trans thing - dysphoria and dysmorphia, to my understanding, are interchangeable terms, and body dysmorphia is commonly used in relation to people who suffer from eating disorders. Some forms of dysphoria are co-morbid with other mental illnesses and may or may not relate to transness. Gender dysphoria can manifest physically, but you can feel dysphoria sexually, existentially, mentally, emotionally etc. Some people do feel a heavy degree of wrongness with their tertiary sexual characteristics and request gender reassignment surgery, but that's not the be-all end-all of the trans experience because gender dysphoria can affect any facet of someone's life.

At the end of the day, I guess what I want to ask is this: what does gender mean to you? Because even if you have ideas about gender that don't pertain to the zeitgeist, there's nothing saying that you have to fit a specific mold of masculinity or femininity to fall into that category. Whether you take on the label of nonbinary and explore that aspect of gender, or you consider yourself a guy and push for certain things to be unisex, is entirely up to you - like I've said before, there's a bunch of philosophy relating to gender, and I'm probably not equipped to go into most of it.

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I think I've hit a point where I've said everything I have to say on the matter, at least for the time being. I'll probably bow out at this point, but I hope other users can use this topic for healthy and respectful discourse, and for personal expression.

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This was an interesting topic to read through, surprised I found it on CE of all places. Thanks @MrMallard .

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Interesting

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I can speak definitively only my own experiences, but I certainly don't just want to be a woman in social terms.
Like, not long after I admitted to myself that I was a trans woman, I got together with an old friend and her now ex-husband to watch through the last episodes of Bojack Horseman(great show, btw) and we were all sitting on the couch, and she was wearing a long skirt and I could see her legs, from her knees down to her ankles. She runs and always has; in other words, her legs are fantastic. In that instant, I wished we existed in a reality where it was okay for me to touch them. But I also, simultaneously, wished my legs looked like that: silky soft and smooth. Feminine. I look forward to looking like and being perceived and treated as a woman, even though I know there will be people who misgender me and that women, in general, have it significantly harder.
For me, at least, the physical and social are one and the same. That's not everyone's experience or desire.

Also, I think, in being trans, you realize that there's so much to know about gender, and that you, in fact, know so very little. So I think that's why you seldom see any trans person making any sweeping generalizations. And certainly I would urge people against believing that they understand some one else's experience better than they do themselves.

Hmm, so you don't think there's anything "incorrect" about thinking a certain body part is feminine or masculine based in certain characteristics?
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emblem boy posted...

Hmm, so you don't think there's anything "incorrect" about thinking a certain body part is feminine or masculine based in certain characteristics?

Some of that is undoubtedly socially-constructed, but the fact is that women and men typically have certain physical differences. Society generally exaggerates their importance, but I couldnt have legs quite like hers with my current hormone balance. I have more muscle mass, more hair, rougher, oilier skin, different fat distribution, etc. etc. Those differences do matter to me.

Thats without even considering brain chemistry. I remember when I was maybe 13-14 years old, and encountering transness for the first time in a New York Times Magazine article about Calpurnia Adams and the murder of her boyfriend. She described a bit of her experience of transition, that before she started HRT she felt as though she were looking at the world through a dirty filter, and chemical transition cleared it.
A lot of trans people, of all types, speak of a similar experience. Thats not social, thats pure biology.

ElatedVenusaur posted...

Thats without even considering brain chemistry. I remember when I was maybe 13-14 years old, and encountering transness for the first time in a New York Times Magazine article about Calpurnia Adams and the murder of her boyfriend. She described a bit of her experience of transition, that before she started HRT she felt as though she were looking at the world through a dirty filter, and chemical transition cleared it.
A lot of trans people, of all types, speak of a similar experience. Thats not social, thats pure biology.

This is what led to me speculating on testosterone-optimised and estrogen-optomised brains in earlier posts. From what I've read, brain fog is a symptom of being trans - which is speculated to stem from a trans brain developing to specialise in receiving one type of hormone but their body producing the other type of hormone.

The current theory on why this happens is that genitals develop before the brain does, so if there's a hormonal shift in the mother between genital development and brain development, you can have a body that specialises in developing one hormone but have a brain that has developed to receive another one.

This all stems from the dysphoria bible, and perhaps it's just speculation? But it scans.

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This topic... I mean it's good when people are being respectful. But there's always so many being disrespectful.

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gunplagirl posted...

This topic... I mean it's good when people are being respectful. But there's always so many being disrespectful.

CE in particular is pretty bad for that. I think there have been people in this topic who have been concerned about whether their phrasing is transphobic or what have you, and like I'm here to speculate and help people along if they mean well and I think this thread has accomplished that pretty well. But there was a brief wave of shitposters as well, and the attitude across the entire board can get really, really shitty. CE isn't the most intuitive place to find support.

As far as LGBTQIA+ positive platforms go, I would honestly recommend trying out Tumblr if you're not already on there. It's still around, and since it's pride month a lot of content is focused on the queer community. There is discourse, but I think it's a lot more mindful when pride month comes around.

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gunplagirl posted...

This topic... I mean it's good when people are being respectful. But there's always so many being disrespectful.

Meh. You know what pisses me off?

TC had very good intentions with this topic. I had a question that I thought appropriate to ask here, some others did too. TC, who is not trans, and other cis people here did their best to try to explain. The actual trans users? They couldn't give a shit. Heck, one of them replied to one of my posts to tell me that he/she/they (IDK that person's preferred pronoun) always answers questions.... but didn't answer mine.

Yet when anyone does post an anti trans post in this board you guys are quick and precise like pigeons to respond and mark. Don't get me wrong, I am glad the anti-trans garbage gets quickly moderated and you guys are so outstandingly attentive and good at going after said posts, but one would think you'd care about helping allies with honest questions who are trying to be more educated about the topic, but no, you guys couldn't give a shit.

so, what actual questions need answered? i'm not good with exhibition, but i'll do my best to answer specifics. i haven't spent a ton of time in this topic, since it seemed like TC had a good handle on things, but if there's something i've overlooked feel free to point it out.

and more importantly, what prior accounts did you have? you seem to have a lot of issues for a six week old mask. people jaq'ing off gets really tiresome. the same bad faith questions getting asked for the 1000th time getting ignored is not actually a problem.

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Medussa posted...

so, what actual questions need answered? i'm not good with exhibition, but i'll do my best to answer specifics. i haven't spent a ton of time in this topic, since it seemed like TC had a good handle on things, but if there's something i've overlooked feel free to point it out.

and more importantly, what prior accounts did you have? you seem to have a lot of issues for a six week old mask. people jaq'ing off gets really tiresome. the same bad faith questions getting asked for the 1000th time getting ignored is not actually a problem.

PM sent

I think it's not a trans users problem @matchboxsantana but more like a gunplagirl and her little clique problem, they thrive on this drama, I mean look the post she made in this topic "it's good when people are being respectful, but there's always so many being disrespectful"

imagine being this pessimistic all the time, always focus on the bad, ignore the good, great life

either way don't want to change this into a flaming war because I thought it was indeed interesting to finally get to discuss specifics about the condition without people throwing the word transphobic at anyone who might have an interrogation

Guide posted...

This makes so much sense holy shit

This. I wish I could double quote or that block quoting still existed but yeah that particular part you quoted does indeed make perfect sense.
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Eevee-Trainer posted...

funnily enough it used to be the other way around like a century or so ago

I remember hearing about this somewhere. Red is considered a masculine color so pink was associated with baby boys because pink is basically light red.
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Machete posted...

I remember hearing about this somewhere. Red is considered a masculine color so pink was associated with baby boys because pink is basically light red.

Yes. I posted a link to an article about it ITT. Boys also used dresses. Pink was considered baby-red, and red was considered the color of blood and gore.

matchboxsantana posted...

Yes. I posted a link to an article about it ITT. Boys also used dresses. Pink was considered baby-red, and red was considered the color of blood and gore.

And for the record, you didn't come across as anti-trans, but that last post with all that jostility was a terrible post. Again it didn't seem anti-trans... just overly demanding. Medussa's comment was not wrong and I can vouch for her that she is very open and willing to share her experiences in topics about trans issues and she is generally very composed when doing so. Lashing out like that just seemed uncalled for on your part tbh but it seems like the two of you are having a dialog or will be, so that's good, ultimately.

I would also recommend ignoring rootfayth here. What gunpla said was not wrong, as evidenced by kinderfeld's blatant dogwhistling in every single post he made in this topic (that user's M.O. and it was clear exactly where he was going from his first post and he went exactly where he was expected to go). That is the kind of bullfuck that trans users have to constantly put up with here which is why dismissiveness happens and why good faith is not always offered. You approached the subject as someone who genuinely appeared to want to learn more and discuss, so that is good, and that's why you are getting better feedback than the obvious dogwhistling and trolling users. It's rare though. They are exponentionally more abundant around here than people in your position.
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Machete posted...

And for the record, you didn't come across as anti-trans, but that last post with all that jostility was a terrible post. Again it didn't seem anti-trans... just overly demanding. Medussa's comment was not wrong and I can vouch for her that she is very open and willing to share her experiences in topics about trans issues and she is generally very composed when doing so. Lashing out like that just seemed uncalled for on your part tbh but it seems like the two of you are having a dialog or will be, so that's good, ultimately.

I would also recommend ignoring rootfayth here. What gunpla said was not wrong, as evidenced by kinderfeld's blatant dogwhistling in every single post he made in this topic (that user's M.O. and it was clear exactly where he was going from his first post and he went exactly where he was expected to go). That is the kind of bullfuck that trans users have to constantly put up with here which is why dismissiveness happens and why good faith is not always offered. You approached the subject as someone who genuinely appeared to want to learn more and discuss, so that is good, and that's why you are getting better feedback than the obvious dogwhistling and trolling users. It's rare though. They are exponentionally more abundant around here than people in your position.

Update - I reached out to Medussa and then she replied to my question and now I understand the topic far more. Thanks, Medussa.

*thumbs up*

can i post the first pm and reply here? it was basically a post i at one point had planned to make, but i couldn't really find the right words and then it seemed like the topic had passed it by.

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Machete posted...

I would also recommend ignoring rootfayth here.

aaah being smart has its downsides :(

Medussa posted...

*thumbs up*

can i post the first pm and reply here? it was basically a post i at one point had planned to make, but i couldn't really find the right words and then it seemed like the topic had passed it by.

Sure!

ROOTFayth posted...

aaah being smart has its downsides :(

Coming in to confirm you should be ignored doesn't sound smart at all.

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

Coming in to confirm you should be ignored doesn't sound smart at all.

I was born this way, that's not my fault, are you going to hold it against me?

ROOTFayth posted...

aaah being smart has its downsides :(

That's what I have been telling you. It's good to know you finally decided to take my word for it.
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Here goes the questions.

What is gender? Is it a social construct?

I don't think animals have gender. And we know sex is biologic. Obviously trans issues are legitimate, and I am pro conversion and all that. I just need to understand the role the concept of gender plays in all of this, since I see it as mostly a social construct or a cultural thing.

Like, some people may think "since I am trans I will wear pink and dresses and speak a certain way", but that is all cultural.

Thanks

here's the first major problem: the term "gender" is actually three different things, all of which are reduced to that term. so people who don't use a more precise term leave with of the three open to context, and it doesn't always go well.

gender roles are the norms that societies expect people to follow. these are culturally based, and naturally adapt over time. they are commonly described as a social construct but i think that misses the mark a little bit. no one ever sat down and said: "boys do this and girls do that". they're just an aggregate of the behaviors of the individuals in that society. *most of our boys do this, so that's what we expect from the people we see as boys.*

gender expression is the inverse of that. it's how individuals code themselves to be seen as boys or girls by people in their society. *this behavior is expected of women in this society, so if i adopt it i'll be read as a woman more often* a lot of this is learned passively, at a very young age, by children observing the adults around them.

gender identity is where things get a little more speculative. these are my beliefs on the subject, and have support, but nothing has been definitively proven and there isn't a ton of research being done to do so.

so, sex is commonly described as the polymorphization of the gonads. most people will have either testes or ovaries, but sometimes things go a little wrong (intersex). gender identity is the same process in the brain. most people will develop a male or female gender identity, but sometimes things go a little wrong (nonbinary). and sometimes, it develops opposite that of the individuals sex (trans).

this polymorphization of the brain is responsible for several things:

the most obvious is part of the sense of self. how you answer the question "am i a boy or a girl". (this is a particular sticking point for a lot of cis people, because when there's nothing wrong it's easy to overlook. trust me, be thankful for that.)

it's also responsible for expected brain chemistry. a brain expecting a male mix of hormones can function with a female mix, but not as well as it can otherwise. this is why HRT commonly eases some symptoms well before any physical changes occur.

the brain also expects its body to be built a certain way. four fingers on two hands on two arms. mouth connected to stomach connected to intestines connected to colon. etc. this includes the genitals. this is where dysphoria commonly stems from. the body is expecting a certain layout, and it can't really process that it's not laid out correctly. again, it can still function, but it's not happy when things aren't right.

as to the rest of you post, i disagree that animals don't have gender. we're animals. we're not special. the only difference is how we can communicate. i can use my words to explain my reality to you. your cat can only use her behavior. and, since this is still quite a contentious and relatively unresearched subject, it's very easy for people to dismiss any behaviors that might support a cat being trans.

and yes, a trans woman who likes to wear pink is acting on cultural gender roles and expression. but plenty of cis woman wear pink and speak a certain way. why should their experiences be any more valid than the trans woman's?

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Medussa posted...

the brain also expects its body to be built a certain way. four fingers on two hands on two arms. mouth connected to stomach connected to intestines connected to colon. etc. this includes the genitals. this is where dysphoria commonly stems from. the body is expecting a certain layout, and it can't really process that it's not laid out correctly. again, it can still function, but it's not happy when things aren't right.

When you say that the brain "expects" something, isn't it just social conditionning?

like the dysphoria is all just on the outside, once you transition and have boobs and a vagina you're fine, or are you still unhappy about not having ovaries and a period?

I was worried about speaking over trans voices, and I can't help but feel like that's come true to a degree. Machete is on the money when he talks about the hostility trans users face on here, like there's only so much faux ignorance followed by transphobic "misinterpretation" that one person can take before they get tired of being put up to that sort of treatment. From what I've seen, trans users are worn down by trolling and the same repetitive questions and all that, with the latter occasionally folding into the former.

By going "TC isn't even trans and he's making an effort to break it down, what about the rest of the trans users who keep ignoring me?", I'm worried that my voice has superceded trans voices in this discussion - and like at this point I'm trying to articulate the experiences of trans users, so I feel like that's definitely the case.

Negativity aimed towards trans users and a higher opinion of a cis user on the topic of trans people - that doesn't feel great as the cis person in that equation. I can understand the frustration, but as other users have pointed out, trans users might be like that because of poor treatment in the past. And ultimately, it's up to them if they want to articulate their experience to you - they don't know you, and this is a board full of trolls and alts.

I'm glad people have gotten something positive out of this thread, but please don't lash out at trans folks like that. It means a lot that the trans people in this thread have been cool with everything, and I don't want there to be a backlash against them in this topic. This is their experience and their struggle, and while I understand you might feel a bit locked out with trans users not talking about their experiences, I'd rather not be seen as the cis guy who talks about their experience against the trans users who don't feel like divulging.

Their input trumps mine any day of the week, and if they don't want to talk about it, that's fine. They have reasons not to dive into their experiences with a dude on a message board they don't know or trust. That's not a judgement of your character or your values - that's a neutral statement about the relationship between you and another user who doesn't know you, and vice versa.

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