Current Events > Schools are telling girls to wear shorts under skirts to stop 'upskirting'

(+) Yeah! (+)

SerperiorThanU posted...

Wrong

Just because you state "Wrong" doesn't change reality

The # of schools/districts joining is only increasing over time.

SerperiorThanU posted...

Honestly, at this point I just want to waste his time.

I can waste your time too.

That street works both ways.

He clearly puts way more time with each of his inane responses than I do so if I can make him waste more of his time with a few sentences that still have meaning to them while he goes to google for an hour to find isolated incidents I'm content.

You still haven't proven anything given that I'm seeing more and more schools/districts joining in the US alone.

---

DravenRainrix posted...

How about teaching the boys not to upskirt in the first place instead of policing the girls clothing.

This

---

Compsognathus posted...

Wearing shorts under a skirt to avoid upskirting isn't bad advice in itself so long as the school is also implementing very strict education on why upskirting is sexual harassment and completely unacceptable and have appropriately harsh punishment for the people doing the upskirting. I mean a school can do everything in its power to try to prevent it from happening but sometimes there is just going to be that asshole who does it anyway.

But if "wear shorts" is there primary response to upskirting then the school can get fucked.

Also this

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

Nope.

You still haven't convinced me, so nothing has changed.

It fits the pattern.

You falsely ascribing labels to strangers.
That seems to be your MO.

Depends on if the next PM is another Tory or not.

Until that happens, it's still in effect

Stop projecting.

There you go, demonstrating your intolerance again!

Lifting ban entirely means there's no ban at all meaning it's back to being able to be used for non-educational purposes.

Please, show me the policy that states it can be used in the class room for non-educational purposes.

SerperiorThanU posted...

Wrong.

More Trolling from you.

SerperiorThanU posted...

You have no evidence of that.

It went from 0 to over 1000 in a span of a few short years recently.

That's evidence enough.

California passed a law allowing it.

Other states have attempted to pass laws around it.

---

The only thing this topic has taught me is that Kamen seems to love getting owned over and over, good for you sir.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

You've already changed your goalposts several times despite being unable to admit it lol. I already consider that a victory. The fact that you're unable to admit it is why you can't be taken seriously.

Where did I change goal posts?

Post #133 was my first post on this thread.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79519540?page=2#133
Common Rules for all Students:

• No Smart Phones or Smart Devices
• Dump Phones allowed for 13+ only (Turned off/silent with no Vibration allowed during class time)
• Basic Watch only
• Basic Scientific or Graphing Calculator only
• Bring your own writing instruments, paper, and notebook

It's the same thing that I've been proposing the entire time.
I've been entirely consistent.

Correctly ascribing, yes.

You mean making up BS labels and planting them on others.

Currently sure. And currently the majority of rest of the world allows it too.

Yeah, and as with all trends, it has to start some where.

There was no ban on SmartPhones in the ClassRoom for many years, that trend only changed very recently.

There you go, projecting again!

You're the one labeling me, because I do things differently and you ragged on it.

More Shitposting from you.

There you go again attacking me again.

No it hasn't. None of your evidence said that. You're intentionally misreading it as usual.

Ok, so the world didn't have a ban for phones for the longest time.

Then suddenly, in recent years, more and more districts/schools join in on the same ban on phones in the classroom?

How is that not a trend?

Entire nations have started banning!

And you don't call it a trend that's starting up?

Talk about willfull blind-ness.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

First you changed goalposts from this after I showed that a study where laptops are linked with raised scores.

I'm against Students bringing Smart Phone or Smart Devices into the classroom, that was literally the first post that I made.

And then you changed goalposts from this

That statement applied to students, not teachers.

Students should be paying attention to the teacher when they are teaching.

That isn't a difficult concept to understand.

When I pointed out Harvard and other ivies require you to bring your own personal laptop because of all the exclusive benefits it had you posted

Harvard required a personal laptop to do course work and use their websites.

I'm still against them using LapTops in the ClassRoom when the teacher is teaching/lecturing to the students.

Short of the Teacher telling you explicitly to bust out the LapTop for whatever they're going to show you or interact with you.

The student shouldn't be busting out their LapTops or SmartDevices when the Teacher is giving you a lecture and you should be taking notes.

Take Notes by Pen & Paper to help your memory and better remember the course material.

You want to use said LapTop for CourseWork outside of the ClassRoom Lecture, then go right ahead!

There was no hint that you or anyone else were talking about "personal devices that distract you".

That's been the point of the entire argument.

Every article I linked, SPECIFICALLY talks about CellPhones/SmartPhones, whatever the device that a student brings in to "TAKE AWAY" focus from the students paying attention to the Teachers teaching, and onto whatever device they brought in.

Why else are School Districts, teachers, and educators asking for a ban on said devices during teaching time in the class?

It's because the personal "Smart Devices" that a student brings into the class room steals attention away from the teacher onto the device.

Students are prone to pay more attention to their SmartPhones or Tablets or whatever they brought, then to whatever the Teacher is teaching.

And that hurts their educational quality.

This is you just unwilling to admit you were wrong.

There's nothing to admit wrong to!

I've been entirely consistent on what I want banned in classrooms

That's Pesonal "Smart Devices" e.g. (Smart Phones, Tablets, LapTops, etc) brought by the Students.

Any device that will steal the students attention away from whatever the Teacher is teaching, and onto the device. It doesn't matter what the device is, if it takes away focus from learning what the Teacher is teaching, then it's bad for the student.

How is this so difficult for you to comprehend?

The Teacher/School/Faculty can provide whatever device they need for educational purposes, as they see fit for course work / interactive moments in class.

Hypothetical, if you were a teacher teaching ___ subject that you wanted to teach to students in class.
A) Do you want them focusesd, paying attention to everything you say, taking notes, focused entirely on what you are teaching?
B) Do you want them to ignore whatever you're saying, bust out whatever personal device they bring from home, start goofing off, and outright ignoring everything you're attempting to teach to them?

And in any case, you've already changed your tune from your stupid "I'm against monitors and laptops in school". And no, you did not originally include "personal".

Your reading comprehension must be really bad.

Post #133 was my first post on this thread.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79519540?page=2#133
Common Rules for all Students:

• No Smart Phones or Smart Devices

^ This literally means that the student shouldn't bring (Smart Phone or Smart Device) into School/Classroom, how hard is that for you to understand?

Do I need to amend that to include every item that I want them to not bring?
LapTop, Portable Gaming Device, Music Player?

OR, do I need to be explicit on everything for you to understand?

Should I raise it to "Any/All Electronic Devices" as a nice catch all for you to understand?

Or do I need to create a "White List" instead so you can understand what a Student is allowed to bring and to not bring anything else?

• Dump Phones allowed for 13+ only (Turned off/silent with no Vibration allowed during class time)

^ This is allowed only for ages 13+ under those use conditions (Turned Off/Silent/No Vibration), kept stored away and not in plain sight.

• Basic Watch only
• Basic Scientific or Graphing Calculator only
• Bring your own writing instruments, paper, and notebook

---

Nope, correctly ascribing.

No, you made up a literal straw man about me, and assigned whatever attributes you wanted to me.

A lot of these bans are several years old so if anything the trend will actually reverse as adults become more tech-savvy and become able to regulate devices better.

So do you think it's beneficial for students to bring whatever "Smart Devices" they have from home to distract themselves from whatever the Teacher is teaching to the students at the moment?

Or would you rather remove the temptation for said student to bust their "Smart Devices"?

I mean, do you actually think these current kids who grew up in a smartphone filled world will decide to ban them when they become adults?

You'll be surprised as people change when they become adults and realize how distracting certain technologies are.

You're absolutely delusional if you think so. The out of touch tech-illiterate boomers who made these rules will die out and be replaced by the current kids who will become adults who actually know how to properly use technology.

Right, because technology will magically fix everything about education in the classroom.

That's your solution to things, because you know better then those teachers who have experienced these problems in the classroom.

What will you do about students who pay more attention to whatever they bring into the classroom, then on whatever the teacher is teaching?

Doesn't matter if it's a "Personal Smart Device" or any other item, trinket, gadget, book, magazine, etc.

Wrong.

Says the person who labels others when they don't know jack squat about them.


---

SerperiorThanU posted...

More trolling from you.

Apparently, basic debate is "Trolling" to you, god forbid you take debating seriously.

SerperiorThanU posted...

Probably because smart phones literally just started existing 20 years ago.

The original iPhone was launched in June 2007, that's when most people considered the first true "Smart Phone" for the masses.

Everything else like Palm or Windows Phone were just advanced Business phones, but most normal people didn't rock those types of phones.

They had dumb phones.

Teachers didn't know how to adjust to it properly. As these kids who grew up with it become adults they will know how to adjust to it properly.

Really, because I see the opposite trend happening.

People are noticing how distracting SmartPhones are becoming towards society.

As you've shown, laptops used to be banned. Now they're a requirement in the top schools.

During Class, when the Teacher/Professor is lecturing, they want the LapTops banned from the lecture hall, so students can focus on what the Teacher/Professor is teaching.

Especially traditional Note Taking.

For course work, outside of class time, the LapTop is fine. Nobody in higher education is trying to take away the LapTop OUTSIDE of (Class Time / Lecture Hall / when the teacher is teaching)

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/11/ohio-state-professors-technology-ban-finds-positive-reaction-and-results
This fall, all first-year students at Ohio State University will be handed an iPad Pro as part of an institutionwide initiative to incorporate Apple technology into students learning experience.
But theres at least one lecture hall where iPads may not be welcome.
Trevon Logan, a professor of economics at Ohio State, posted on Twitter this week that he had banned all electronics from his courses, with positive results.
I know your reading comprehension isn't great, so I'll spell it out for you:

The professor wants "ALL Electronics" to be banned when he's teaching/lecturing.

It doesn't mean you can't use your electronics OUTSIDE of the professors (Class Time / Lecture) for school work or whatever.

Do you understand the nuance about what the article is stating?

I thought I would get much more pushback on this from students, and I didnt think student outcomes would be so significant, Logan said in a Twitter thread. Given these results, Im very encouraged to continue with the policy.

Logan, who enacted the ban this semester, reported that student performance had improved significantly in midterms compared with previous years. Results were significant -- average scores were about half a standard deviation higher than previous offerings, he said.
The most surprising finding, said Logan, was that students seemed to like the policy. About 25 percent mentioned the policy in their open-ended course evaluations, and everyone who talked about it enthusiastically endorsed it.
Logan said the students reported that the policy had helped them to maintain focus and to take better notes, kept them engaged, and increased their enjoyment of the course. I did not expect this at all, said Logan.
Logan said that he was inspired to try out the technology ban by a New York Times op-ed by Susan Dynarski, professor of public policy, education and economics at the University of Michigan. I was curious to see what would happen, he said.
In an email, Dynarski said that following publication of her article, she was contacted by many professors considering a ban. Dynarski advised that anyone considering such a ban should do so armed with the best evidence, creating policies that fit the content and culture of their classes. She added, Professor Logan did exactly this, and with great success.
The debate about banning laptops in classrooms has been raging for some time, leading some observers to call for a more nuanced discussion about bans.

One of the key objections to laptop bans is that it might stigmatize students with learning disabilities who rely on learning technologies. Logan said this was a big worry, but that he purposefully designed a policy in which anyone, even those without a disability, could email and petition for an exception. So far, no students have asked for an exception, said Logan.

Though the reaction to Logans ban was relatively warm, Darren Rosenblum, a professor at the Elizabeth Haub School of Law at Pace University, said he had not had experienced such a positive reaction from students for a similar policy.
Rosenblum, who has banned technology in his classes for about five years, said that students frequently ask for exceptions, saying that they have always taken notes on a laptop, or that their handwriting is horrible.
But Rosenblum tells his students that note taking by hand is an important skill for lawyers, who might not be allowed to bring laptops into hearings. Additionally, Rosenblum says, he has noticed that students are easily distracted by their neighbors screens. For students with disabilities, the law school at Pace pays for professional note takers, whom (if they use a laptop) Rosenblum asks to sit near the back of the class so as not to distract other students.
Both Rosenblum and John Craven, associate professor of education at Fordham University, praised Logans scientific approach to trialing a ban.
A deep understanding of when and how the use of smart devices and other technologies should be diluted or entirely removed from the learning environment remains elusive, said Craven. Dr. Logans willingness to shed light on this topic is commendable particularly given the potential of rebellion from students who are currently all too often addicted to their smart devices.
As more universities (including Ohio State with their new Apple program) roll out iPads and tablets to all students we need to think long and hard about whether and how this technology will be beneficial, said Logan. It does work in some settings; it doesnt work in others.
Asked for comment, an Ohio State spokesman said, Teaching and learning is the first pillar of Ohio States strategic plan. We are committed to adopting innovative approaches of all types that will improve student outcomes, and we know our faculty share this commitment. Some innovations will incorporate new technology and others will not. He added that Ohio States initiative with Apple, called the Digital Flagship, is just one of the ways were working to improve student success in the classroom.
Aside from quantitative benefits, Logan said that the atmosphere in the classroom had improved.
Students talk to each other more and are "much more interactive" as they are not constantly on their phones or looking at their laptop screens. Asked how he gets students to follow the rules, Logan said that early on, you have to show you mean business.
"There will always be a few students who do not believe you are serious," he said. Warn students in advance and make a scene the first time you see someone breaking the rules.
"Stop midsentence and call them out."

---

Jesus fucking CHRIST, CE.

---

Omg, this topic is still going?

---

We've already come this far, let's see how deep it will go.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

https://youtu.be/35vY_c6h23I?t=359

The Teacher/TA of the class has it open for presentation purposes

• All the students are WATCHING and paying attention to the Teacher/Lecturer
• They aren't fiddling around with their Phones.
• The VLOGer is recording her class time for her VLOG.

https://youtu.be/35vY_c6h23I?t=419

She's literally showing a scene that she's at the end of her class, notice how the Teacher/Professer/TA/Lecturer are not talking to the class anymore. At that point, the students bust out their Smart Devices because class is effectively over.


Notice how she shows her "Physically Written" Lecture notes on Gender studies.


The Vlogger herself isn't dorking around on her SmartPhone, she takes notes the "Traditional Way", via Pen & Spiral Bound Notebook to learn.

https://youtu.be/19pl_PRDWaA?t=103
https://youtu.be/LZ_ytgRwiEc?t=374

Currently, many Schools allow laptops in the lecture hall, but that's on the understanding between the (Lecturer/Teacher/Professor/TA) that the students would be using them to take notes.
Not to dork around on the machine and waste time in class.

Even when I was in college, some students would bust out their LapTops and take notes, some others would be playing games or surfing the web.

The point of the ban on Personal SmartDevices / LapTops in the ClassRoom is to get the students to all pay attention to the teacher and what they're teaching, for more effective learning of the knowledge that the Teacher is lecturing on.

It's not stating that they can't use their computer outside of the ClassRoom.

How is this basic understanding/nuance lost on you?

It's almost like you've never been in university.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

You're not debating seriously. As many others have already pointed out you're just a deranged troll who can only Gish Gallop articles you don't know anything about.

Random CE user here and there doesn't mean squat to me.

Pedantics. It being newer actually supports my point even more.

How so, explain

We've already made aware that you only see what you want to see. There's also the fact that your school and likely many of those schools in the regions that banned it were lower level and less funded which made it harder for them to regulate and handle them properly.

You know this how? You made assumptions about the schools I went to, when you know nothing about my educational history.

Do YOU understand the nuance? The whole fucking school literally gave out smart devices for every single first year to use for all their classes with there being a single exception, one professor whose lessons aren't compatible with electronics. And that's fine, not every teacher is able to be compatible with electronics. He might be old and out of touch like you. But literally the fact that the school themselves gave out ipads for everyone to use in every other class completely disprove your moronic "smart devices should be banned in every class" stance.

And the point is to use those devices to take notes and LEARN.

Not to dork around with said devices during (Class Time/Lecture)

Otherwise the students loose focus and aren't learning from their Teachers.

What the school decides to give is their own thing.

But the common expectation @ Uni in class is that you aren't screwing around with your Smart Device in class.

You should be Paying Attention to the (Professor/Teacher/TA/Lecturer) and taking notes.

The fact that some people want to do it on their SmartDevice or LapTop is personal perogative of the students.

How is this basic concept lost on you?

---

I'm on the side of women 90% of the time, but not this time.

You should absolutely be teaching your daughter to wear a pair of shorts under a skirt or dress, especially if it's less than knee length because no matter what happens at some point your crotch is going to be exposed from simply existing and when someone notices its not always going to be because they're a pervert or a creep, it could just be in their line of sight.

And teenagers are horny and curious. We were all there once. Curious kids are always going to take every opportunity to learn about the people they are sexually attracted to. You cannot stop boys OR GIRLS from sneaking peaks at what they're attracted to. There is no amount of saying "this is bad behavior" that will EVER stop that

---

This tuned into a topic about taking notes?

---

Whew, what a topic.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

Keep watching, a girl writes something down on her phone a seconds after. And yes, the whole point is that people can pay attention to the teacher and be using a smartdevice at the same time.

And that scene looks exactly like the end of the class, and the student is referencing her SmartDevice.
The teacher isn't teaching anymore and has a

This is the Teacher teaching Korean:


Notice how the female student on the right has her notebook out and paying attention:


End of the class, notice how she's putting away her notebook, Music Video in background, she's referencing her SmartPhone for some reason that is at the "End of Class", not during class.


SerperiorThanU posted...

The students are going to take out an entire laptop and put it on their desk after the class is over? You're literally making up imaginary scenarios just to cope with the fact you're wrong.

Please reference which frame are you talking about?
This looks like the end of the class.

SerperiorThanU posted...

Yeah, I know you're incapable of nuance but you can do both physical notes AND laptop notes.

The vast majority of folks pick one method and stick to it.
Most don't do both at the same time.

Exactly. Computers are used in class to take notes, do practices, and learn. That's the whole point.

Yes, that's what I've been telling you. Anybody who's gone to University understands that.
The point is to focus on the teaching, not to goof around.

The LapTop is just a tool for taking down notes, outside of class you can use your laptop for whatever learning function you need.

And the point is that's stupid since laptops are used in classrooms. You yourself just admitted it.

And the whole point of the ban during ClassTime/Lecture hall, is to help students focus, not be distracted by their gadgets & electronics.

It's been proven that writing down notes is a superior way for humans to retain info, that's why professors are recommending that method and suggest to ban LapTops/Smart Devices during ClassTime/Lecture Hall.

They can still use whatever LapTops/Smart Devices outside of ClassTime/Lecture Hall.

That's why there are so many research studies, A/B tests, trials.

All to gather concrete evidence on the effects of the Bans

The professors and higher ups have seen superior results from doing trials on their students.

That's why they're pushing the agenda.

Because it helps the students retain the info / knowledge that they retain from Class/Lecture hall.

So why do you keep posting when you're convincing no one?

I'm trying to get YOU to understand, but apparently you can't seem to understand why the grown ups are pushing this "Ban Agenda" during Class Time.

The only thing you're convincing people is that you have shit beliefs and thinking skills.

The only thing you've shown is how low brow, crass, and un-intelligent you've been.

The fact that I have to spell everything out for you shows how little reading comprehension you have.


---

I am begging you to tell me you have something better you could be doing.

---

Too dense to get it yourself huh? The point is that it being newer means teachers weren't able to adjust to it because they're not used to it. As time goes on and people start getting used to it they'll use it more. Just like laptops.

It has nothing to do with being "Newer", schools have been dealing with items that distract students during class time long before I existed and will continue long after.

I saw plenty of LapTops / Dumb Phones at my Uni, and the same stuff was happening back then.

Some people were using their LapTops appropriately, some weren't, some were goofing off.

The device/distraction will change, but the fundamentals will stay the same.

The point of these "Bans" is to help students focus on learning from the Teacher/Professor when they're teaching in class. Especially during Lecture halls.

The ban is there to help them remove "distractions".

That's why there was all those studies about testing students in A/B groups, doing mass trials.

Collect scientific data to back their hypothesis.

It has nothing to do with "Out of Class" usage of device for course work and projects.

The times will change, the item that "Distracts the students" may change, the core point remains the same.

Remove distractions from the ClassRoom so the Students can focus/learn.

It's too easy and tempting to self distract in a ClassRoom environment, that's why the policies exist.

Your posts here and your ignorance is proof enough.

More baseless statements

Yep, people use those devices to learn. Exactly. That's the whole point. Smart devices are good learning tools and they'll continue to get better as people continue to develop technology for education. That's why your proposal is moronic.

Smart devices can also be misused easily when left in the hands of the student.

You're assuming that every student will use them appropriately, at all times for educational reasons.

That's not a reaslistic assumption. When one student gets distracted, it affects other students, and they think it's ok to be distracted during the middle of class.

That's why the policies to "Ban the Smart Devices/LapTops" during Class Time came about in the first place.

It's to remove distractions in Class so that students can more easily focus on what the teacher is teaching. And no student could distract other nearby students by being off task.

If you went to Uni, you would understand this basic concept of how easily students get distracted and how it affects others nearby.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

Notice how it was on the table instead of her holding it after taking it out from her pocket which means it was already on the table during class. There were probably some things part of the schoolwork that required it. Obviously when the teacher is speaking you pay attention to them. But the fact stands that phones aren't banned from the class and that phones can be used in class without distraction.

Can be, but that all depends on the student and their personal discipline.

Girl in the middle is using a windows laptop. It's much more likely and logical that she was using it during class rather than pulling out the laptop after class when she should be packing up and leaving. The apple tablet user on the bottom right too.

So what, the current rules allow students to use their Smart Devices, like you said.

Actually wrong. The majority of people do both. I did both. Writing down is better for math and science while typing is better for literature and history.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/technology-general-science/pen-and-paper-versus-laptop-there-clear-winner-note-taking-olympics
a 2019 survey of a few hundred undergraduate students revealed that 74% took notes differently depending on the class. Organic chemistry may benefit from the freedom of the pen, while historys torrent of dates and facts may be better captured by nimble fingers tapping keys.

Well I guess I was one of the 26%, I stuck with Pen/Paper for all note taking.

Which proves your original "laptops shouldn't be in the classroom" post wrong.

Fine, LapTops can be used in the classroom if the student is using it for educational purposes like "Note Taking"

But what are you going to do about those who are goofing off with their LapTops/Smart Devices and distracting other students in the classroom, during the Teachers Lecture time?

What happens if this problem is so pervalent that it affects a mass % of students in the classroom?

What do you do then? You don't want to ban the Smart Device/LapTop; provide a solution then.

Nope, because devices are used for learning which you just admitted yourself in your previous post.

Yes, they can be used for learning; but what happens if they aren't?

What happens when the student misuses the technology and distracts themselves and others?

That's why there are so many proposals for Smart Device bans, and even LapTop bans.
At lower grades, many students have shown themselves to lack the discipline to control themselves properly and focus on learning. Especially with Younger Students.

Even at Higher levels of learning, there are many who get distracted.

https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019/07/10/survey-shows-nearly-half-students-distracted-technology

The study was published in the Canadian Journal for the Scholarship of Teaching and Learning and surveyed 478 students and 36 instructors at the University of Waterloo.
Of the undergraduate students surveyed, 49 percent said the use of technology for reasons not related to class, or off-task use, was distracting to them. However, students generally said theyve used technology for off-task purposes regardless.

That distraction affects the student and the students around them.
Students actually know and realize that the use of technology has a negative impact on people around them when used for off-task purposes like browsing the web, Elena Neiterman, a Waterloo teaching fellow and one of the authors of the study, said. They still feel like [technology] is still necessary when the classes are not engaging enough. Like, for example, being in a large lecture hall or when the professor is what they call boring.

Should we continue on as normal?

Let things worsen with the educational environment in the classroom?

Or find a solution that can make it easier to focus, have less distractions in the classroom?

What's your fix to get students to focus more?

Please, if you're so smart; how can they make students pay more attention during Class Time/Lecture hall?

If you don't want a ban on devices, how do you plan on preventing students from being distracted by their device or distracting anybody around them?

What is your solution?

That article I posted above also addresses the pen vs keyboard note taking results.
But theres Buis study that reported that the students who took verbatim notes on a computer did better than those who hand-wrote when no time was given to study the notes. And in their last computer-only experiment, they pitted students who were told to take verbatim notes against others who were told to organize their notes according to concepts, and divided those two groups into study versus no study. The result? Students who took verbatim notes and were allowed to study them did better on the quiz the next day than those who had studied their much leaner, concept-driven notes. And theres a final study, this one by Fiorella, which presented the course material on, wait for it, flashcards. In this rather strange scenario, the computer note-takers outperformed the pen wranglers.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/technology-general-science/pen-and-paper-versus-laptop-there-clear-winner-note-taking-olympics
Take-home message:
The process of taking notes during class may or may not be beneficial to the student, but the notes themselves and being able to review them before an exam have been shown to be highly valuable
It is unclear at this point which method of taking notes (pen, laptop, or tablet) is best, and it may be that different subjects lend themselves more to one method over the other

Since it's unclear, I guess we'll have to figure out which method works for all folks while not distracting your fellow students.

Why would I be convinced by someone who's ignorant and out of touch and has been gish galloping their google search of isolated incidents? You've also already changed the goalpost multiple times.
You're at the point where you realize you're wrong but not able to admit it.
Major institutions use laptops in class. It's been shown to be vital to many kinds of classes and an overall benefit. Yes there are flaws like potential distractions but the benefit overweighs them and the distractions can be handled on an individual basis by school able to handle them.

The Educators don't agree, that's why the policies had been being enacted at National Levels and various Regional and School District levels.

Especially for lower School levels that are Pre-University.

Students are getting distracted by the devices they brought. Be it Smart Device or LapTop.

Yes, Students could potentially use them correctly and for educational note taking.

But there are many who don't, and that's becoming a big enough issue in the class room.

That's why there are large pushes for them by the educators.


---

Given how this comes from an ignorant, uneducated, and out of touch hypocrite who's shown himself to have horrible critical thinking skills and reading comprehension this means nothing.

The fact that you can't understand why these educators want the ban of Smart Devices / LapTops shows how little you understand the problem that these educators are facing in the class room.

There's good reasons for doing it, and you can't seem to understand the down-sides / misuse / abuse of the Smart Device & LapTops in the ClassRoom setting and how it affects the education of the students.

You think it's a blanket good, yet Educators are running into real problems of holding the students attention compared to the Smart Device / LapTop that they bring. They've come up with a solution that can work for most students but you dislike the idea because you think there's no downsides to the mass misuse/abuse of Smart Devices & LapTops in the classroom.

And you're against their solution because it isn't the solution that you like.

And yet laptops have been so accepted they're required in the top schools and many schools give them out to all students with notes being taken on laptops an omnipresent sight. You're wrong.

Yes they give them out with the assumption that the students will not "Mis-use" the tech.
Especially in class, during lecture.

That's called speculation and assumption. I'd say Harvard and Yale are some of the best experts there are regarding this and they say you're wrong.

Not everybody at Harvard or Yale is in agreement with your belief

https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/1007/Why-laptops-in-class-are-distracting-America-s-future-workforce

• By Timothy Snyder

As these first few weeks of the college semester begin, professors look out expectantly into grand lecture halls, where they see, rather than faces of students, the backs of open laptops. The students, for their part, are looking intently at the laptop screens. What are they doing as they stare forward with such apparent focus?
Thanks to wireless Internet access, they are updating their Facebook, Twitter, and Tumblr profiles; they are chatting on Skype, Gchat, or iChat; they are making travel plans, or reading the newspaper, or following the pennant race. This fall, higher education lost yet another new class of freshmen, as the new students learned that the university classroom is just one more physical place to be on the Internet.
I teach at Yale, where lecturing is taken seriously and in history, which boasts some of the best teachers. My ratings as a lecturer are consistently high. But even here, I would not have the attention of these very gifted students if I did not ban laptops and smartphones from my classroom. Part of the problem is that students are not paying attention at a given moment; part of the problem is that they often lack the ability to pay attention at all.
Of course, some of them think they are paying attention: The well-intentioned are checking the professors facts by googling. This is not a good use of that powerful tool, because what they learn in the class comes only from the class, and has a richness and precision they wont get online. Once the search happens, the students miss the next minute of lecture, or even more, as they then follow the next appealing link. It doesnt take long to get from googling Habermas to reading about Lady Gaga.
The scale of the problem
Almost none of my colleagues have any sense of the scale of the problem. To most professors over 50, the computer is an educational tool. If a student asked a professor for permission to bring a television set to class, the professor would be shocked. But a laptop connected to the Internet is, among other things, a television set. During lectures, students at our very best schools watch TV shows, video clips, and movies on YouTube, Hulu, or Vimeo. The forest of laptops may look much better than a television set on every desk, but in fact, its far worse.
In the beginning, about 15 years ago, students really did just use their laptops to take notes. But step by step, and so imperceptibly, we have moved to a situation where even the students who want to take notes are distracted by their own screens and those of their neighbors. The one devoted student using pen and paper is also distracted by the glow and flash, and the noise of fingers on keypads. Its hard, as a student at another Ivy League school told me, to keep the focus after forty-five minutes of hard work when one neighbor has a music video going and the other is checking his stocks on line.
What we're losing
Meanwhile, we are losing the long tradition of people learning from other people. The lecture course, in one form or another, has been around for more than 2,000 years. The ability of one human being to reach another by speech is an irreplaceable part of what it means to be human. In seminars, laptops are still more harmful, serving as physical barriers that prevent a group of students from becoming a class.
Even more concerning, after university, students who could not concentrate in the classroom will become workers who cannot concentrate in the workplace. It is possible that the American economy will never out-compete others because we have the most easily distracted workforce.
How to reconnect with our humanity
Removing laptops from the classroom gives students a chance to focus, and a chance to learn to focus. Without the flash of screens and the sound of typing, they find themselves... learning. In most courses, much is lost and nothing is gained by the use of the Internet. If the students need to use the Internet, they have the remaining 23 hours of the day, and indeed the rest of their lives, to do their screen-staring.
College students who spend their time online are missing out not only on education, but on experience. The four years of university are probably the best part of American life. It seems a shame to spend that time doing something that can be done anywhere and at any time. By allowing students to spend class time on the Internet, we professors are sending the message that college is just one more backdrop for googling.
And what do the students think? Almost all of them, judging from the student evaluations of my previous courses, saw the logic of the laptop ban, and liked the atmosphere of calm and concentration that it permitted. If, at some future point, the tide of student opinion turns against me, I have one final argument: Ever since the laptop ban was inaugurated, my students have been earning far better grades.
Timothy Snyder is a professor of history at Yale University. His book Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin out this month.

---

Damn that was something else to read so far.

P.s this girl at work a few years ago stopped to "ask" me something while I was on a 12' ladder and she even said to me "honestly I just wanted to look up your shorts".
I'm out.


---

For Note Taking, Low-Tech Is Often Best
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/17/08/note-taking-low-tech-often-best
In college lecture halls, evidence suggests it's time to put down the laptop and pick up a pen
By: Susan Dynarski
Posted: August 21, 2017

Do computers help or hinder classroom learning in college? Step into any college lecture and youll find a sea of students with laptops and tablets open, typing as the professor speaks.
With their enhanced ability to transcribe content and look up concepts on the fly, are students learning more from lecture than they were in the days of paper and pen?
A growing body of evidence says No. When college students use computers or tablets during lecture, they learn less and earn worse grades. The evidence consists of a series of randomized trials, in both college classrooms and controlled laboratory settings.
A series of randomized trials have shown that when college students use computers or tablets during lectures, they learn less and earn worse grades.
Students who use laptops in class are likely different from those who dont. They may be more easily distracted or less interested in the course material. Alternatively, they may be the most serious (or wealthiest) students who have invested in technology to support their learning.
Randomization assures us that, on average, the students using electronics in a study are comparable at baseline to those who do not. That means that any comparison we make of students at the end of the study is caused by the treatment, which in this case is laptop use.
In a series of laboratory experiments, researchers at Princeton and the University of California, Los Angeles, had students watch a lecture, randomly assigning them either laptops or pen and paper for their note-taking. Understanding of the lecture, measured by a standardized test, was substantially worse for those who had used laptops.
Learning researchers hypothesize that, because students can type faster than they can write, a lecturers words flow straight from the students ears through their typing fingers, without stopping in the brain for substantive processing. Students writing by hand, by contrast, have to process and condense the material if their pens are to keep up with the lecture. Indeed, in this experiment, the notes of the laptop users more closely resembled transcripts than summaries of the lectures.
Taking notes can serve two learning functions: the physical storage of content (ideally, for later review) and the cognitive encoding of that content. These lab experiments suggest that laptops improve storage, but undermine encoding. On net, those who use laptops do worse, with any benefit of better storage swamped by worse encoding.
We could try to teach students to use their laptops better, nudging them to think about the material as they type. The researchers tried this in a second experiment, advising the laptop users that summarizing and condensing leads to more learning than transcription. This instruction had no effect on the results.
Students using laptops can also distract their classmates from their learning, another lab experiment suggests. Researchers at York and McMaster recruited students to watch a lecture and then tested their comprehension. Some students were randomly assigned to do some short tasks on their laptops during the lecture (e.g., look up movie times). Others were allowed to focus on the lecture. All seats were randomly assigned.
As expected, the multitasking students learned less than those focused on the lecture, scoring about 11 percent lower on a test. What is more surprising: the learning of students near the multitaskers also suffered. Students who could see the screen of a multitaskers laptop (but were not multitasking themselves) scored 17 percent lower on comprehension than those who had no distracting view. Its hard to stay focused when a field of laptops open to Facebook, Snapchat, and email lies between you and the lecturer.
Learning researchers hypothesize that, because students can type faster than they can write, a lecturers words flow straight from the students ears through their typing fingers, without stopping in the brain for substantive processing.
These studies, like all lab experiments, took place under artificial circumstances. Students were paid to participate, lectures were unrelated to actual coursework, and performance on tests had no bearing on college grades. This controlled setting allowed researchers to carefully manipulate conditions and thereby try to tease out the mechanisms underlying the effect of laptop use on learning.
But what happens in a real classroom, over multiple lectures? Perhaps laptop-using students review and encode their notes later, after class. They might even perform better on assessments, since they have more accurate notes for review. Further, students might work harder to stay focused on the lecture, even in the face of distractions, when their grades are at stake.
To capture these real-world dynamics requires randomly assigning hundreds of college students to different classroom conditions. At the United States Military Academy (commonly known as West Point), a team of researchers took on this task.
All West Point students take a semester-long, introductory economics class, taught by professors in sections of no more than twenty students. Students in this introductory class all take the same multiple-choice and short-answer tests, which are administered online and graded automatically. This provides a consistent measure for comparisons of learning across sections.
The researchers randomly assigned these sections to one of three conditions: 1) electronics allowed, 2) electronics banned, and 3) tablet computers allowed, but only if laid flat on desks where professors could observe their use. Because professors at West Point teach multiple sections of the same class in a given semester, the researchers assigned each professor to more than one treatment condition.

---

At the end of the semester, students in the classrooms where electronics were allowed had performed substantially worse, with scores 0.2 standard deviations below those of the sections where electronics were banned.
There may well be particular classroom settings in which laptops improve learning. But for the typical lecture setting, the best evidence suggests students should lay down their laptops and pick up a pen.
We can criticize the external validity of any of these studies. How relevant, after all, is the experience of cadets learning economics to community college students learning Shakespeare? But the evidence-based strategy is not to therefore ignore the studies but to consider the specific reasons that their results would or would not extrapolate to other settings.
The United States Military Academy authors argue compellingly that we would expect effects at other colleges to be, if anything, larger than those in their study. West Point courses are taught in small sections, where it is difficult for students to hide distracted computer use from their professors. Further, West Point students have strong incentives to perform, since class rank determines who gets the first pick of jobs after graduation.
The best way to settle this question of external validity, of course, is to replicate this experiment in more colleges. Until then, I find the existing evidence sufficiently compelling that I ban electronics in my classrooms.
Students with learning disabilities may need a laptop or tablet in order to participate in class. I (and every teacher I know) solicit and accommodate such requests. There is a loss of privacy, in that a student using a laptop is revealed as having a learning disability. This loss of privacy has to be weighed against the deterioration in learning that the other students suffer if laptop use is freely allowed.
Students may object that a laptop ban prevents them from storing notes on their computers. But free smartphone apps can quickly snap pictures of handwritten pages and convert them to PDF format. Even better: typing and synthesizing handwritten notes is a terrific way to review and check ones understanding of a class.
There may well be particular classroom settings in which laptops improve learning. Perhaps a coding class, in which students collaborate on solving a programming problem. But for the typical lecture setting, the best evidence suggests students should lay down their laptops and pick up a pen.

---

https://bokcenter.harvard.edu/technology-and-student-distraction
Even Harvard is saying that there is a problem with distraction via technology in the classroom.

The Case Against Technology in the Classroom
If you've been anywhere near a college campus, you've probably noticed the extent to which students are glued to their mobile devices. What do they do with them when they walk into the classroom? In one survey at six different universities, college students reported using their phones an average of 11 times per day in class. In another study, 92% of college students reported using their phones to send text messages during class.
Recently, a faculty member asked us for advice about policies regarding mobile devices in class. Indeed, this is a hot topic on our campus and at universities across the country. We were able to point him to a number of studies examining mobile devices in the college classroom. Not surprisingly, the evidence suggests that cell phones generally are a distraction for students.
Broadly, we are not wired to multitask well (e.g. Mayer and Moreno), and using cell phones during class is no exception. Several studies have compared students who texted during a lecture versus those who did not. Those who texted frequently took lower quality notes, retained less information, and did worse on tests about the material (e.g. see Kuznekoff and Titsworth, and Rosen et al). Students themselves realize that cell phone usage does not promote learning; in one survey, 80% of students agreed that using a mobile phone in class decreases their ability to pay attention.
What is worse is that mobile device usage is distracting to neighboring students. In several surveys, students have reported that texting is distracting to nearby students. A study on laptops in a simulated classroom found that students in the vicinity of another student who was multitasking on a laptop during class scored worse on a test than those who were not near multitaskers. While cell phone screens are smallerand thus perhaps less distractingthan a laptop, one could reasonably expect that a similar phenomenon of distraction applies to cell phones.
On the other hand, smart phones and other mobile devices can be used for positive purposes in the classroom. For example, instructors might choose to employ a variety of applications, including Poll Everywhere and Learning Catalytics, which can be accessed by mobile devices. These applications encourage class participation and provide instructors with instantaneous feedback about student learning.
Whether laptops should be allowed in the classroom may be a bit more nuanced, as some students prefer to take notes on their computer. However, the temptation for distraction is large. Fried found that most students using a computer in class spend considerable time on activities not related to taking notes, and furthermore identified a negative correlation between student success in class and in-class laptop use. Additionally, as mentioned above, neighboring students are easily distracted when a student on a computer strays from the immediate task at hand. For best practices about using laptops in the classroom, see this guide created by Michigans Center for Research on Teaching and Learning.
Should instructors explicitly prohibit students from using mobile devices in class? Its certainly worth considering, and potentially including in the syllabus. Its also worth talking with your students about the reasons why you do not want mobile devices to be used in class.
Lastly, its worth thinking about ways to maximally engage your students during class so that the temptation for students to respond to a text message or do a Google search is minimized.

---

Even Harvard Students & Professors recognize that there are issues with LapTops in the Classroom

HLS Debates Laptops in Class
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/4/11/hls-debates-laptops-in-class-as/
Some worry that net surfing distract law students from class discussions
As the issue of wireless Internet access and laptop use during class heats up at Harvard Law School, two prominent student groups hosted a wide-ranging discussion yesterday on whether the school should limit wireless Internet access during class time.

The panel participants, which included four professors and an extended discussion with a crowd of about 50 students, largely dismissed the idea that the Law School should adopt restrictions on Internet access in the classroom.

At issue was whether the law school should adopt a policy similar to the one at Harvard Business School, where students are not able to access the wireless network when they are in class because their course schedules have been linked to their wireless access.

The discussionwhich was sponsored by the Law School Council and the Journal of Law and Technologycentered on whether the use of computers and the Internet aid classroom learning.

Jonathan L. Zittrain, a professor and co-founder of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society, outlined the four schools of thought that currently prevail regarding the issue: the orthodox, who favor banning technology; the fundamentalists, who believe that all instructors should ban technology; the laissez-faire, who favor allowing professors or students to make their own decisions; and the innovators, who experiment widely with technology and integrate it into their teaching.

Zittrain said that he has experimented with varying degrees of technology use in his courses, having used real-time polling data from his students in some and banning laptops altogether in others.

Gottlieb Professor of Law Elizabeth Warren said that she bans laptops from all of her classes not because students are distracted by web surfing, but out of concern that many students transcribe her lectures instead of taking part in the intense class discussion. She reported that students are far more engaged in class activities when they are not able to use laptops.

Williams Professor of Criminal Justice Richard D. Parker said that he first became aware of the problem of distracting Internet use when he sat at the back of a fellow professors class.

This was a class about six weeks into the first semester and two-thirds of the students had stuff on their screens that was completely unrelated to contracts, Parker said. He said that he banned laptops in one of his classes at the urging of Warren, who challenged him to stand up to students who protested the rule by asking, Are you a man or are you a mouse?

But William Terry W. Fisher, a professor and the chair of a committee on information technology, said that even if professors wanted to impose restrictions like those at HBS, they would face several obstacles, most importantly that students would exchange ID numbers or purchase a connection from another wireless provider to circumvent the restrictions.

There was also disagreement among students over whether the Internet aided learning.

Many freely admitted that the Web serves chiefly as a distraction. But others claimed that the Internet increases class attendance, as students feel that even if their class is not engaging, they can still make some productive use of their time.

Some added that there is a generation gap, and that those who have grown up with technology are programmed to multitask.

But the notion of multitasking was criticized by Warren and former Law School Dean Robert C. Clark, the panels moderator. They said that when people multitask, their ability to reason at a high level is severely impaired.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

What I would do to students who are goofing off? I've already answered this but since it seems you're looking to be agreeable I'll just say it again to get it out nice and clear. Take their device away, give them detention after repeated incidents, dock their participation grades. Same thing you would do to any troublemaker or student who is goofing off or distracting others when they weren't using devices. As for finding out if they are goofing off, there are assistants. Even if a classroom doesn't happen to have assistants, the teacher isn't going to be at one spot the whole period. They can move around the room while talking to see the screens of each student. Sure, students can hide multiple times a day every time that happens but if they're that dedicated they probably aren't the type of student who'd be very studious even with no electronics too.

How about we take it to the near future of student monitoring

Chinese school used AI to monitor students
https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=11858e27-1f9d-434c-b53c-ab397b25e732
Cameras, software used to evaluate teenagers behavior
Using the latest artificial intelligence software, the devices tracked students behavior and read their facial expressions, grouping each face into one of seven emotions: anger, fear, disgust, surprise, happiness, sadness and what was labeled as neutral.
Think of it as a little glimpse of the future.
While American schools, as well as students and parents, are worrying about the increased emphasis on standardized tests and the loss of classroom freedom that comes with teaching to the test China has carried things to a whole new level.
Here, the surveillance cameras took the data on individual facial expressions and used that information to create a running score on each student and class. If a score reached a predetermined point, the system triggered an alert. Teachers were expected to take action: to talk to a student perceived to be disengaged, for example, or overly moody.

https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-china-face-surveillance-2018-story.html

I can see a future world where every student in every class has cameras in all 4/8 corners of the class room, monitoring all students behaviors and recording them, making sure they're paything attention and documenting things.

SerperiorThanU posted...

Yes, there's cellular data but that's not as practical, especially for laptops

The best 4G LTE laptops in 2021
https://www.laptopmag.com/best-picks/best-4g-lte-laptops
Too late, Wireless Cell connections have already come to LapTops

The genie is out of the bottle, and it ain't going back

SerperiorThanU posted...

Have the parents not have or have limited internet and SMS access on their data.

That sounds an awful like what we had with DumbPhones and the recent resurgence of modern DumbPhones.

It'd be cheaper on parents to hand children a modern DumbPhone than a pricey SmartPhone to bring to school.

Back to Basics: The Best Non-Smartphones
https://theinformr.com/cell-phones/p/best-basic-phone/

SmartPhones aren't nearly as useful if they don't have Internet connection, at that point, you might as well give the kid a DumbPhone, they aren't missing out on that much without the internet.

SerperiorThanU posted...

There's also the fact that some classes will have moments where you're using laptops for doing assignments, sharing essays, and practicing presentations, and moments where you're not like having a big group discussion or doing hands-on work.

For most of my generation, we did those things in person, on paper, together in groups.
We huddled our Tables/Seats together and just did things together. Face to Face. Talking/Discussing/Laughing/etc.

Older teachers who don't know how to handle electronics or prepare lessons that utilize electronics would probably be better off doing what they're used to too with a classroom without electronics.

Most of my teachers used their computers to make all the assignments and printed out everything to hand to each student in each class.

We always have our 3-ring binder filled with countless assignment sheets.

---

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

Well huh. Would you look at that. That does make it more practical then. Of course, as technology progresses I'm sure there will also be new technology that can regulate these. Afterall, if the genie isn't going back... then the best option is to get the genie on our side.

Somebody tried to put the genie back into the bottle.

https://www.cnet.com/news/science-teacher-suspended-for-using-jammer-to-shut-up-students-cell-phones/

https://www.toolbox.com/tech/question/teacher-uses-cell-phone-jammer-in-classroom-gets-suspended-060815/

It didn't end well for the teacher.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

Eh, the whole point of smartphones in class (for educational use of course, so we don't have any more mixups) is to access documents, programs, and websites, and the teacher shares to the class. A smartphone that has LTE restricted and has the school wifi restricted can access online programs that dumbphones can't without the distraction of off-topic content. It's the best of both worlds.

Then you might as well have a Tablet or LapTop without cell service and skip the phone.

Operate off of WiFi.

---

Nemu posted...

I don't get why people take advice of preventative measures as victim blaming. It's two different things

Because criticism of any kind bad.

There's no issue with asking a victim to take preventative measures for themselves to lower their probability of becoming a victim.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

I actually did have some part of my childhood without technology but I actually don't ever remember writing a serious research essay or presentation that wasn't on a word document or powerpoint. They actually required it be printed out like a professional paper. Stuff like MLA citations and properly indented and categorized formatting seems almost unfeasible with pencils. I'm not sure how you do a powerpoint presentation without a computer. Of course, things like group discussions and hands-on work are still done in person.

All my serious reserach essays or presentation were first done at home on my PC

Anything in class was just done on paper.

Back then during school (Pre-Uni), nobody other than the rich business types could afford LapTops.

Even in college, only the Rich really could afford LapTops, so you knew who was ballin.

Especially any kid who brought a colored ClamShell iBook with a handle back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F1xmbYucec

If you owned a Colored ClamShell iBook G3, everybody knew you were RICH.

---

SerperiorThanU posted...

lol ouch. But that guy really hated cell phones everywhere, not just the classroom. He even used the jammer in his car so that people driving near him or anyone near his car would have their services disrupted. A bit extreme tbf.

FCC eventually got to him, it didn't end well.

SerperiorThanU posted...

Good point. Although there are some mobile apps can't be run on laptops. Tablets work though. This discussion actually reminds me, I had a school course that didn't use physical textbooks. We used a specialized school library app that had the books in it. Since it was a paid app every time I backed up my tablet I had to be reminded I couldn't back up that app lol.

I hoped you cracked the DRM, because that's BS.

Everything underneath the DRM wrapper is a glorified PDF or Word Doc.

Engadget - HP Elite Folio review; A costly hodgepodge of mobile-centric features
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNvpGsc0CoU
I swear, if HP/Google turned this PoS Windows machine that's a half assed Windows Machine into a ChromeBook / Android Tablet hybrid that runs on ARM with a 100 whr FAA Limit Battery, it would be AMAZING

---