Current Events > ''We're shitty people, Joel. It's been that way for a long time.''

(+) Yeah! (+)

Garioshi posted...

Even if they did somehow develop a vaccine (against fungal infections, the first one in human history), they'd also definitely use it as leverage to gain power and leave the parts of the country that don't submit to them to die. Even worse, they might start deploying spores as weapons against said parts of the country.

100%

Holding certain cities hostage until submission is exactly something the Fireflies would do.


---

Garioshi posted...

You cannot possibly do all of those tests in a day, please shut the fuck up.

It's a game bro, it's not realistic. BUT REAL LIFE. Jesus, it's a zombie game

Lol now making up hypothetical reasons why attempting to cure the zombie plague that's destroyed the world is actually a bad thing! Maybe it wouldn't have worked but killing some girl, who is only remarkable for her bite, in attempt to find out is worth it. Arguably better than leaving her in a world where she would be lucky to get to 30 unraped and tortured to death.

Oh, so he's just trolling
---

I'm not. I roll my eyes at "but real life" justifications for fantasy stories like this. It's not real life, none of this can happen. Being all achtually about it to justify your position is just lame.

Even if the Fireflies had a guaranteed cure from sacrificing Ellie Joel would do the same thing.

---

Darmik posted...

Even if the Fireflies had a guaranteed cure from sacrificing Ellie Joel would do the same thing.

Good point. He's scum

NullAndVoidFC posted...

Lol now making up hypothetical reasons why attempting to cure the zombie plague that's destroyed the world is actually a bad thing! Maybe it wouldn't have worked but killing some girl, who is only remarkable for her bite, in attempt to find out is worth it. Arguably better than leaving her in a world where she would be lucky to get to 30 unraped and tortured to death.

NullandVoid: lmao making up hypothetical situations

Also NullandVoid: killing her is better than letting her live in a world where she would be lucky to get to 30 unraped and tortured to death

Troll better, bro. The least you could do is keep a consistent message.

Darmik posted...

Even if the Fireflies had a guaranteed cure from sacrificing Ellie Joel would do the same thing.

You mean to tell me that someone whos seen the worst sides of humanity doesnt trust terrorists with distributing the cure?????? Oh no!!!!


---

So is it hypothetical to say she would be lucky to get to 30 in the Last of Us world? Chances are, a teenage girl isn't seeing 30. That's not hypothetical, it's playing the odds.

If your argument is well in a lawless society where hundreds of millions have died of a zombie plague, the people that hold the cure might exploit that for power or gain... well yeah, but it's the lesser of two evils, and if you can't accept that you're basically saying the world is too fucked and everyone might as well just kill themselves because at some point you're going to rub up against the wrong end of a group exploiting their power advantage or the flesh eating zombies.

Fore!

---

Kimbos_Egg posted...

Are you 12? You seriously think all of that is easy with mushroom people clawing at your gonads? Seriously. Its hard enough to survive like that today, with no mushroom people.

Leave your house once in a while.

Bruh Mario been doing that for like 30 years JOEL GOT NO EXCUSE

---

NullAndVoidFC posted...

So is it hypothetical to say she would be lucky to get to 30 in the Last of Us world? Chances are, a teenage girl isn't seeing 30. That's not hypothetical, it's playing the odds.

No, what Im saying is that youre calling me questioning the Fireflies ability to find a cure, mass produce it, distribute it, and not use it for personal gain, a hypothetical. Yet you turn around and start acting like its a given that Ellie isnt going to make it to 30 without torture and rape. Like do you not see the irony here? Me doubting the Fireflies isnt me shitting out a hypothetical, its me simply being rational, just as you claiming Ellie wont make it to 30. But if mine was hypothetical because its an unknown, then yours is too.

NullAndVoidFC posted...

If your argument is well in a lawless society where hundreds of millions have died of a zombie plague, the people that hold the cure might exploit that for power or gain... well yeah, but it's the lesser of two evils, and if you can't accept that you're basically saying the world is too fucked and everyone might as well just kill themselves because at some point you're going to rub up against the wrong end of a group exploiting their power advantage or the flesh eating zombies.

The world is too fucked. Thats the whole point of the game. Its called the Last of Us, not the Middle of Us or some shit. The entire idea that the Fireflies had was bullshit and 100% illogical and improbable, on top of the fact that they were terrorist and trying to hide the fact that Ellie was going to die from her and from her chaperone.

The Fireflies were never going to be able to actually create, produce, and distribute a cure, much less do so in a remotely appropriate manner. They wanted to sacrifice someone without their consent on a question. Joel did the right thing without question. You cannot trust the organization, you cannot trust the odds, and you cannot trust that humanity wouldve even taken it, not after youve seen and done the things Joel had seen and done.

Joel was a bad person. Thats a fact. Can you trust the Fireflies? No. Thats a fact. Can you trust humanity by this point? Of course not. This game is meant to be the end. The time for stopping the outbreak was 20 years prior.

---

NullAndVoidFC posted...

So is it hypothetical to say she would be lucky to get to 30 in the Last of Us world? Chances are, a teenage girl isn't seeing 30. That's not hypothetical, it's playing the odds.

Its a game bro, not real life.

---

2SweetforTurtle posted...

Yet you turn around and start acting like its a given that Ellie isnt going to make it to 30 without torture and rape.

Nope, I said it's unlikely she would make it to 30.

2SweetforTurtle posted...

Like do you not see the irony here?

It would actually be hypocrisy.

2SweetforTurtle posted...

Me doubting the Fireflies isnt me shitting out a hypothetical, its me simply being rational

"Holding certain cities hostage until submission is exactly something the Fireflies would do."

OK bud.

2SweetforTurtle posted...

The Fireflies were never going to be able to actually create, produce, and distribute a cure, much less do so in a remotely appropriate manner.

They won't now for sure, but only because of Joel.

2SweetforTurtle posted...

The world is too fucked. Thats the whole point of the game. Its called the Last of Us, not the Middle of Us or some shit.

Oh right I guess the characters should have realised they were in a thing called the Last of Us.

2SweetforTurtle posted...

on top of the fact that they were terrorist

They were justified. Fuck FEDRA

2SweetforTurtle posted...

Joel was a bad person.

Yes, he deserved to die.

Man I would rather kill every last fucking one of those asshole terrorist fireflies than let them touch my kid even if I knew for a certainty they could make a cure, which we don't.

---

More like the game blatantly tells you theres a layer of nuance that exists but it amounts to well you kill bad guys in this game, like you do every other game, but here in this game you need to think about this more actively, you see these decisions to do something? Its even bigger in this game


---

Ilishe posted...

Man I would rather kill every last fucking one of those asshole terrorist fireflies than let them touch my kid even if I knew for a certainty they could make a cure

Well, you're horrible, but even still Ellie is not Joel's kid, she's someone he's selfishly attached himself to because he can't get over the death of his daughter.

NullAndVoidFC posted...

Nope, I said it's unlikely she would make it to 30.

It would actually be hypocrisy.

"Holding certain cities hostage until submission is exactly something the Fireflies would do."

OK bud.

They won't now for sure, but only because of Joel.

Oh right I guess the characters should have realised they were in a thing called the Last of Us.

They were justified. Fuck FEDRA

Yes, he deserved to die.

okay I get it now. trolling lmao


---

"I can't respond to your points so I have to assume you're being disingenuous to satisfy my ego"

Somebody's taking this way too seriously

---

NullAndVoidFC posted...

Well, you're horrible, but even still Ellie is not Joel's kid, she's someone he's selfishly attached himself to because he can't get over the death of his daughter.

Its a game bro, how do you know the concept of selfishness even exists in-universe? Its not real life.

---

Now that's trolling.

Joel had a great character arc and ultimately got what he deserved imo

---

Doom_Art posted...

Joel had a great character arc and ultimately got what he deserved imo

Yeah, which is basically the crux of the topic. Some people can't accept this though.

NullAndVoidFC posted...

"I can't respond to your points so I have to assume you're being disingenuous to satisfy my ego"

Nah, you had me for a minute. It was when you quoted the WLFs fuck FEDRA that ruined it for you. Because no rational person is going to be on the WLFs side, considering they overthrew the oppressor in order to instill their own fascistic regime. That was kinda the whole point.

---

2SweetforTurtle posted...

Nah, you had me for a minute. It was when you quoted the WLFs fuck FEDRA that ruined it for you. Because no rational person is going to be on the WLFs side, considering they overthrew the oppressor in order to instill their own fascistic regime. That was kinda the whole point.

We're not talking about the WLF. We're talking about the Fireflies. You use the term terrorists to dismiss them, but they were justified, because FEDRA were oppressive, and the fireflies were never orangized like the WLF - a line Ellie says herself - so we can't judge them as oppressors. Tommy is a former firefly that did some questionable things but managed to become a leader in Jackson, Abbey's father seemed like an honorable man all things considered. If they had made a cure would they have used it to gain power? Probably, it's a tough world, tough choices need to be made, doesn't mean it wouldn't have been for the greater good.

Wow this topic blew up while I was asleep.

---

NullAndVoidFC posted...

We're not talking about the WLF. We're talking about the Fireflies. You use the term terrorists to dismiss them, but they were justified, because FEDRA were oppressive, and the fireflies were never orangized like the WLF - a line Ellie says herself - so we can't judge them as oppressors. Tommy is a former firefly that did some questionable things but managed to become a leader in Jackson, Abbey's father seemed like an honorable man all things considered. If they had made a cure would they have used it to gain power? Probably, it's a tough world, tough choices need to be made, doesn't mean it wouldn't have been for the greater good.

Literally the first thing we see the Fireflies do is orchestrate a bombing at a gatehouse, killing and injuring innocent people. Civilians included. Tommy leaves the Fireflies for a reason. You know the old torture two people to see if you can get them to agree on the truth thing Joel and Tommy do? They learned it because of the Fireflies.

The Fireflies are cruel people, and the main reason Joel and Tommy are the kind of shitty people that they are. The Fireflies are terrorists, period.

And I wasnt claiming the Fireflies are oppressors (they werent yet, but likely wouldve been if given power). I was pointing out that you quoting Fuck FEDRA (a phrase used by the oppressive WLF in order to indoctrinate and recruit for their fascistic cause) is quite amusing and ruins all the effort you made to convince others that you werent trolling. Its so blatantly obvious. You keep throwing out shit like for the greater good to justify murder, terrorism, executions, and oppression. You must be a fun person at parties.

---

Yes, the Fireflies have done terrible things, but beating oppressors like FEDRA can't be done with civil discourse. Fighting FEDRA is a justified action, it was for the fireflies and it was for the WLF. The WLF, by and large, was a much better alternative to the masses of Seattle than FEDRA ever was, but yes their leader Isaac was too fanatical in trying to wipe out the scars.

Wait were the The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS WLF oppressors?

I must have missed that in the game or am not remembering.

---

Shablagoo posted...

Wait were the The Last of Us Part II SPOILERS WLF oppressors?

I must have missed that in the game or am not remembering.

Not as oppressive as FEDRA, generally, but the implication is you have to go a long with a few things to get by. As Isaac got more fanatical about the Scars he became more hostile to people questioning his orders or doing their own thing. Abbey and Nora's body language when they're disobeying Isaac tell you everything. Having said that, they're clearly part of his military arm. For the average joe in the stadium? Probably a decent life all things considered.

Joel getting what he "deserved" really fucked with a lot of people, because they loved the power fantasy and saw him as a big hero.

But then he should have expected something like this, considering the death he left in his wake over the years.

---

LightningAce11 posted...

Joel getting what he "deserved" really fucked with a lot of people, because they loved the power fantasy and saw him as a big hero.

But then he should have expected something like this, considering the death he left in his wake over the years.

I think Joel himself knew something like this would have happened to him. The issue isn't Joel, the issue is his fans believing his still some fucking hero when the game blatantly told us he's a god awful person.

It's okay to acknowledge Joel is a bad person, and it's okay you still love him despite that. Some of you guys are taking great offense to know you're rooting for a bad guy, and that's the point of this topic.

---

Maybe itll be easier for them when they realize there are no good people in the Last of Us.

NullAndVoidFC posted...

Not as oppressive as FEDRA...

Ahh yeah now I remember. Isaac seemed like such a small part of the game, sometimes I forget about all that.


---

NullAndVoidFC posted...

Maybe itll be easier for them when they realize there are no good people in the Last of Us.

You can argue that some are better than Joel.

---

You can argue most are.

Joel is the main character of this game. Let's not deflect this to "Well, everyone else is either better or worst than Joel" as a way to defend or scorn him. He still is what he is after that.

---

2SweetforTurtle posted...

You mean to tell me that someone whos seen the worst sides of humanity doesnt trust terrorists with distributing the cure?????? Oh no!!!!

Doesn't matter who is doing it or for what reason. Joel would never let anyone hurt Ellie. That's why I find the arguments over the Fireflies overall pointless. It had absolutely no bearing on Joel's decision.

---

Veggeta_MAX posted...

better or worst than Joel"

*worse

---

Yeah, the derailment argument of "BUT THE FIREFLIES" has little to no point in this discussion.

---

One last bump. The end point of my topic is to have people simply acknowledge they embrace Joel while fully understanding that he was a shitty bad person. No amount of deflection can change this fact about him especially he himself knows this about himself.

---

Why are we judging Joel in our world and not in an post apocalyptic one?

---

Because even in that world Joel is scum that got what was coming to him?

Do we know enough about other people to know if Joel would count as scum or just another survivor?

---

"Joel can't be a bad person because everything he did was just to survive"

--Joel fans

---

Absolutely. This is a world were almost everyone has had to have at least a tacit involvement with the killing of another human, and yet almost everyone judges Joel as scum, including himself and Tess. Theres a reason Tommy left him.

^ we know that what he did was so horrible, it caused a rift between him and his brother, to the point that his brother wanted nothing to do with him

edit: at post 96

---

You know, Ellie, we really are the last of us

---