Current Events > I dont understand free will arguments wrt determinism.

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Doe 08/04/21 7:07:16 PM #1:	People say if the universe if deterministic, then free will must not exist??? Determinism should be more like a pre-requisite. To make decisions, one requires conditions and measurable circumstances to react to, such that they can weigh their options and come to a conclusion. One argument I just saw concluded that in a universe with free will, if you went back in time like rewinding a VCR, then let it play again, you would see some different results. That makes no sense, it implies that the decisions made previously were not free but rather just random. --- https://imgur.com/u5kY6Yt https://imgur.com/V6HBhkR <cite>Doe posted [p:956780980] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>People say if the universe if deterministic, then free will must not exist??? Determinism should be more like a pre-requisite. To make decisions, one requires conditions and measurable circumstances to react to, such that they can weigh their options and come to a conclusion. One argument I just saw concluded that in a universe with free will, if you went back in time like rewinding a VCR, then let it play again, you would see some different results. That makes no sense, it implies that the decisions made previously were not free but rather just random. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
David1988 08/04/21 7:10:10 PM #2:	Doesnt determinism just mean everything that happens was fated to happen and couldnt happen differently? I dont see how free will is possible in a world like that --- Each night, when I go to sleep, I die. <cite>David1988 posted [p:956781081] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>Doesnt determinism just mean everything that happens was fated to happen and couldnt happen differently? I dont see how free will is possible in a world like that </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hambo the Hog 08/04/21 7:22:20 PM #4:	Meh. Just cuz deterministic forces cause you to make decisions doesn't mean you don't make them. The deterministic universe is the mechanism through which we exercise free will and make choices. Nothing is forcing your hand, just setting the conditions that result in you wanting or not wanting to do something. And that's free enough will to me. --- I'm sorry, but 10,000 of ANYTHING on a PS2 would absolutely destroy your framerate. It'd be like playing chess through the mail. ~johnboy1 <cite>Hambo the Hog posted [p:956781453] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>Meh. Just cuz deterministic forces cause you to make decisions doesn't mean you don't make them. The deterministic universe is the mechanism through which we exercise free will and make choices. Nothing is forcing your hand, just setting the conditions that result in you wanting or not wanting to do something. And that's free enough will to me. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MedeaLysistrata 08/04/21 7:24:55 PM #5:	Doe posted... Determinism should be more like a pre-requisite. To make decisions, one requires conditions and measurable circumstances to react to, such that they can weigh their options and come to a conclusion. What do you mean by this? Determinism isn't the same thing as order, you need order (usually through the PSR) for things to follow cause and effect relationships so that acts aren't radically contingent and actually do what we want them to do. But that is not the same thing as willing different kinds of action. --- "Why is ontology so expensive?" - JH [Is this live?][Joyless planet...] <cite>MedeaLysistrata posted [p:956781529] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>Doe posted... </cite> <quote>Determinism should be more like a pre-requisite. To make decisions, one requires conditions and measurable circumstances to react to, such that they can weigh their options and come to a conclusion.</quote>What do you mean by this? Determinism isn't the same thing as order, you need order (usually through the PSR) for things to follow cause and effect relationships so that acts aren't radically contingent and actually do what we want them to do. But that is not the same thing as willing different kinds of action. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Strider102 08/04/21 7:26:43 PM #6:	I'm using my free will to post in this topic. It wasn't predetermined. Unless... --- Last Cloudia ID: 188850453 <cite>Strider102 posted [p:956781585] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>I'm using my free will to post in this topic. It wasn't predetermined. Unless... </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AldousIsDead 08/04/21 7:28:44 PM #7:	John Calvin must've been a hoot at parties. --- In simplicity, utility. Through utility, simplicity. <cite>AldousIsDead posted [p:956781641] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>John Calvin must've been a hoot at parties. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MedeaLysistrata 08/04/21 7:28:51 PM #8:	Strider102 posted... I'm using my free will to post in this topic. It wasn't predetermined. Unless... Oh huh. I guess it depends on how far the chain of causality goes back. You didnt know the topic would exist si presumably you would have been determined to do something else. --- "Why is ontology so expensive?" - JH [Is this live?][Joyless planet...] <cite>MedeaLysistrata posted [p:956781645] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>Strider102 posted... </cite> <quote>I'm using my free will to post in this topic. It wasn't predetermined. Unless...</quote>Oh huh. I guess it depends on how far the chain of causality goes back. You didnt know the topic would exist si presumably you would have been determined to do something else. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MorbidFaithless 08/04/21 7:30:00 PM #10:	I think for free will to exist you as an entity would need to exist, somehow, outside of time and space. --- walk like thunder <cite>MorbidFaithless posted [p:956781671] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>I think for free will to exist you as an entity would need to exist, somehow, outside of time and space. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
refmon 08/04/21 7:31:42 PM #11:	If Determinism was real then morals wouldn't exist since you couldn't make an actual choice --- If you read this signature, then that meant that I had control of what you read for 5 SECONDS!! <cite>refmon posted [p:956781729] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>If Determinism was real then morals wouldn't exist since you couldn't make an actual choice </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zonbei 08/05/21 9:04:44 PM #12:	refmon posted... If Determinism was real then morals wouldn't exist since you couldn't make an actual choice morals dont exist. Theyre not physical objects. We made them up. (Theyre extremely useful tools with a purpose and we should continue to utilize and abide by them, but we made them up.) --- It's a luscious mix of words and tricks, that let us bet, when we know we should have folded. <cite>Zonbei posted [p:956816700] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>refmon posted... </cite> <quote>If Determinism was real then morals wouldn't exist since you couldn't make an actual choice</quote> morals dont exist. Theyre not physical objects. We made them up. (Theyre extremely useful tools with a purpose and we should continue to utilize and abide by them, but we made them up.) </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zonbei 08/05/21 9:05:25 PM #13:	David1988 posted... Doesnt determinism just mean everything that happens was fated to happen and couldnt happen differently? I dont see how free will is possible in a world like that fated implies it was laid out beforehand. Thats not the case. But yes, things cant happen differently than they did.. or they would have. --- It's a luscious mix of words and tricks, that let us bet, when we know we should have folded. <cite>Zonbei posted [p:956816725] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>David1988 posted... </cite> <quote>Doesnt determinism just mean everything that happens was fated to happen and couldnt happen differently? I dont see how free will is possible in a world like that</quote> fated implies it was laid out beforehand. Thats not the case. But yes, things cant happen differently than they did.. or they would have. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ZMythos 08/05/21 9:15:25 PM #14:	At the quantum level, isn't it true that the very act of measuring an electron causes it to behave differently? And that you cannot know both the position and momentum of a quantum particle to perfect precision? So, even if there was one big math equation that could model the outcome of everything, including the actions you take or thoughts that you think, it would still be impossible to know/predict anything because you're changing the parameters through the very act of measuring/observing them. Right? Wouldn't that make free will in a kind of superposition? --- Rainbow Dashing: "it's just star wars" AutumnEspirit: kissu <cite>ZMythos posted [p:956817017] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>At the quantum level, isn't it true that the very act of measuring an electron causes it to behave differently? And that you cannot know both the position and momentum of a quantum particle to perfect precision? So, even if there was one big math equation that could model the outcome of everything, including the actions you take or thoughts that you think, it would still be impossible to know/predict anything because you're changing the parameters through the very act of measuring/observing them. Right? Wouldn't that make free will in a kind of superposition? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MedeaLysistrata 08/06/21 3:59:37 AM #17:	I get confused about whether people mean free will as in one possible total outcome in the universe, or humans willing different actions. I think they are separate issues. --- "Why is ontology so expensive?" - JH [Is this live?][Joyless planet...] <cite>MedeaLysistrata posted [p:956824994] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>I get confused about whether people mean free will as in one possible total outcome in the universe, or humans willing different actions. I think they are separate issues. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MedeaLysistrata 08/06/21 4:01:51 AM #18:	mattymad posted... Especially as plenty of biological processes actually rely on quantum mechanics. Ia this really true? I'll look it up I dont think quantum physics can determine the limit of human action any more than classical physics can, but again I guess cause and effect is not the same thing, unless you go into the mind body problem --- "Why is ontology so expensive?" - JH [Is this live?][Joyless planet...] <cite>MedeaLysistrata posted [p:956825023] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>mattymad posted... </cite> <quote>Especially as plenty of biological processes actually rely on quantum mechanics.</quote>Ia this really true? I'll look it up I dont think quantum physics can determine the limit of human action any more than classical physics can, but again I guess cause and effect is not the same thing, unless you go into the mind body problem </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MedeaLysistrata 08/06/21 4:06:01 AM #19:	So apparently there are some quantum biological phenomena: the first one I saw had to do with energy transfers. It really does sound like some unobtainium science --- "Why is ontology so expensive?" - JH [Is this live?][Joyless planet...] <cite>MedeaLysistrata posted [p:956825060] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>So apparently there are some quantum biological phenomena: the first one I saw had to do with energy transfers. It really does sound like some unobtainium science </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ssjevot 08/06/21 4:48:30 AM #20:	Quantum mechanics behave probabilistically though. That isn't free will, that's just there are factors determining the outcome that we cannot predict beyond probability. Free will would require some external will force (basically metaphysical, a soul, or some other thing that exists outside the laws of the physical universe) to influence these factors. The concept of free will is really weird to me, I never got how people believe in it, but some people get extremely defensive about it. It's just a really weird concept that you somehow make choices in a vacuum separate from environmental and biological factors. --- Favorite Games: BlazBlue: Central Fiction, Street Fighter III: Third Strike, Bayonetta, Bloodborne thats a username you habe - chuckyhacksss <cite>ssjevot posted [p:956825500] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>Quantum mechanics behave probabilistically though. That isn't free will, that's just there are factors determining the outcome that we cannot predict beyond probability. Free will would require some external will force (basically metaphysical, a soul, or some other thing that exists outside the laws of the physical universe) to influence these factors. The concept of free will is really weird to me, I never got how people believe in it, but some people get extremely defensive about it. It's just a really weird concept that you somehow make choices in a vacuum separate from environmental and biological factors. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Turtlebread 08/06/21 4:56:53 AM #21:	ssjevot posted... Quantum mechanics behave probabilistically though. That isn't free will, that's just there are factors determining the outcome that we cannot predict beyond probability. Free will would require some external will force (basically metaphysical, a soul, or some other thing that exists outside the laws of the physical universe) to influence these factors. The concept of free will is really weird to me, I never got how people believe in it, but some people get extremely defensive about it. It's just a really weird concept that you somehow make choices in a vacuum separate from environmental and biological factors. people think people are special the philosophy also makes people question their life efforts, as if its an attack to discredit them --- https://imgur.com/yCW15Zn <cite>Turtlebread posted [p:956825589] in I dont und... [t:79598809]...</cite> <quote>ssjevot posted... </cite> <quote>Quantum mechanics behave probabilistically though. That isn't free will, that's just there are factors determining the outcome that we cannot predict beyond probability. Free will would require some external will force (basically metaphysical, a soul, or some other thing that exists outside the laws of the physical universe) to influence these factors. The concept of free will is really weird to me, I never got how people believe in it, but some people get extremely defensive about it. It's just a really weird concept that you somehow make choices in a vacuum separate from environmental and biological factors.</quote> people think people are special the philosophy also makes people question their life efforts, as if its an attack to discredit them </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > I dont understand free will arguments wrt determinism. (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > I dont understand free will arguments wrt determinism.