Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 377: Nonconsent of the Governed

(+) Yeah! (+)

xp1337 posted...

He said he took the vaccine and they should too

trump: i took the vaccine and you should too.
also trump: tHe ViRuS aFfEcTs vIrTuAlLy nO oNe

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Trump didn't try to commit genocide. By today's standards he's practically Hitler but by the standards of even 50 years ago he's downright tolerant.

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i didn't say trump or GWB was hitler. just saying that "having a direction" doesn't necessarily make you a better political leader than trump.

that being said, bush > trump. i can't justify saying trump is on par with bush after his disastrous handling of covid. it's close, though.

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xp1337 posted...

Trump may have finally found the line his cult won't follow him over.

He said he took the vaccine and they should too and there was silence followed by some smattering of boos. (Prompting him to immediately go into some word vomit about "but you have your freedoms")

This comment on reddit I found sums up my opinions well

Honestly this is incredibly frightening to me. Because it shows just how destructive fascism is. Its a wild fire that cant be controlled after its unleashed. The Anti-intellectualism and the radicalization/frenzy/other fascist traits Trump tried to tap into to win the election is officially out of his control.

Him,Bannon,Right leaning public figures,the right leaning media and most of the republican party have lost control of the leopard they tried to muzzle/control.

Basically...we are in dangerous territory. I expect more acts of unorganized domestic terrorism,rebelling against the establishment government and just further denying reality.
these people have unleashed a force they cant even control. The cult leader is being turned on by the cult they created.

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Bush has definitely had more influence than any other POTUS this century though. Admittedly that may be more due to everyone else's hands-off approach regarding international matters.

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It seems like Trump has finally realized that his supporters can't vote for him if they're dead

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PrinceKaro posted...

It seems like Trump has finally realized that his supporters can't vote for him if they're dead

More likely he wants credit for the Vaccine.

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With 77% of the country semi vaccinated, making the Republicans the anti vaccine party is a horrendously bad idea if they want to win.

Edit, can't find that 77% number now. Might be just adults. Still

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77% seems absurdly high, given that the GOP has spent the last several decades telling their followers vaccines bad.

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masterplum posted...

With 77% of the country semi vaccinated, making the Republicans the anti vaccine party is a horrendously bad idea if they want to win.

Edit, can't find that 77% number now. Might be just adults. Still

No

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

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Trump always wanted people to get the vaccine. He just didn't want to do anything to get the vaccine to them.
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Yglesias with an actual good take:

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1429474517290823685?s=21

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1429476135767793664?s=21

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If the policy elites wanted us to stay in Afghanistan, maybe they should have come up with some kind of purpose for us to do so. As far as I can tell, their plan for foreign affairs is to have the military everywhere forever to do (stuff?) because (something?). What do they even want?
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We spent 20 years to train a military that surrendered in 5 minutes. A slow retreat would result in more combat for American troops, which would come with deaths for all sides.

No idea what these people wanted here.

I get the sense there is a non insignificant contingent of liberals that wanted to complain about the war in Afghanistan without ever actually getting out of Afghanistan.

Although to be fair I saw a chunk of people more left than liberal that seemed to be doing the same thing. So I guess Im also not sure what people wanted either.

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It's not as confusing to me as to what these people want. They want a Taliban-free Afghanistan, and in their view the reason this wasn't accomplished was because we didn't try hard enough. That's not wrong; we didn't try hard enough past the first year, but that train left the station years and years ago. The confusing part to me is where these people think the political will to try hard enough is supposed to come from.

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They keep saying we shouldnt have left 15-40,000 Americans behind, and when I ask them who are these thousands of people they just share articles mentioning these people, but none of these articles say who the fuck they are?

Like if that were true, it sure sounds bad, but its just such an unbelievable number that the administration doesnt seem to be refuting, almost like they want Joe to hold the L while everyone else is forgiven for the last 20 years.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

almost like they want Joe to hold the L while everyone else is forgiven for the last 20 years.

Well, it is the same administration refusing to actually pursue charges against Trump for crimes they literally know he committed

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Yesmar_ posted...

It's not as confusing to me as to what these people want. They want a Taliban-free Afghanistan, and in their view the reason this wasn't accomplished was because we didn't try hard enough. That's not wrong; we didn't try hard enough past the first year, but that train left the station years and years ago. The confusing part to me is where these people think the political will to try hard enough is supposed to come from.

It's confusing to you because you have never been to a third world country. As someone who has travelled and worked in South/Central America, the western trained forces being essentially a group of over-armed clowns that surrendered at first sign of trouble is something seen time and time again. Countries like Afghanistan are in the position they are in, largely because the brightest and most educated members of their society left for greener pastures decades ago.

I was working on a project in Guyana a few months before COVID, and was talking to some of our local employees, and the brigtest one of the bunch had just finished college in Guyana, and was working for us to make money to cover his moving expenses so he can move to Canada in a few years. He was telling me how bad it is down there and how that was a direct result of everyone motivated enough to get an education moving to Canada/USA as soon as they are able. There is a massive Guyanese expat population in both Toronto and New York.

For those that aren't familiar, Guyana is an english speaking country in South America, just north of Brazil. Former British colony and part of the commonwealth, population is about 700k, but there are estimated to be about 200,000 expats living in Canada, and 200,000 expats living in the US.

And for the record, I enjoyed my time in Guyana and go to see some really cool shit further inland where the plains turn into the Amazon. One of the best perks of travelling for work is getting to visit places a lot of people will never go, and having local employees to show us around and experience the culture (and the food)

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

They keep saying we shouldnt have left 15-40,000 Americans behind, and when I ask them who are these thousands of people they just share articles mentioning these people, but none of these articles say who the fuck they are?

Like if that were true, it sure sounds bad, but its just such an unbelievable number that the administration doesnt seem to be refuting, almost like they want Joe to hold the L while everyone else is forgiven for the last 20 years.

Whatever number of people they have left to get out they likely dont want to be public information just yet.

Leafeon13N posted...

We spent 20 years to train a military that surrendered in 5 minutes. A slow retreat would result in more combat for American troops, which would come with deaths for all sides.

No idea what these people wanted here.

The only possible interpretation is they want more years of war.

When you say pulling out after 20 years is too fast, that we "just need a plan" after failing our previous dozen plans, it's clear that you would never be satisfied. Whether it's ignorance, naivete, or malice, the only conclusion is that you want more war.

This is exactly why libertarians are so adamant about pulling out of wars NOW. And it's why the opposition paints us as kooky nuts. Because it's the only way to actually end a war, and it WORKS. Any other option leads to more war.

I think many bleeding heart libs underestimated how much they preferred an orderly state of war, to the risk and chaos of peace. Warhawks (80%+ of Ds & Rs) are just happy they can say the quiet part out loud again.

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So some Proud Boys started attacking people and wrecking shit in Portland today

And the police did literally nothing until they had to because one of the Proud Boys tried to shoot somebody

Must've been an antifa false flag m i rite

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kevwaffles posted...

Trump always wanted people to get the vaccine. He just didn't want to do anything to get the vaccine to them.

He literally is why the vaccine was out so fast.

That said, he is in a no win situation. He stans too hard on it he loses his base.

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StealThisSheen posted...

So some Proud Boys started attacking people and wrecking shit in Portland today

And the police did literally nothing until they had to because one of the Proud Boys tried to shoot somebody

Must've been an antifa false flag m i rite

We already knew that in a Venn diagram of "proud boys sympathizers" and "cops", the latter is entirely contained within the former.

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Afghanistan is Vietnam all over again. The timing regarding Presidential administrations even works out.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Like if that were true, it sure sounds bad, but its just such an unbelievable number that the administration doesnt seem to be refuting, almost like they want Joe to hold the L while everyone else is forgiven for the last 20 years.

?

The Biden administration estimated there were 10-15,000 Americans in Afghanistan last week (and as of Saturday had evacuated about 2500 Americans since Kabul fell (out of 30,000 total)). They don't have the exact number but said they're in contact with "roughly a few thousand." I assume the reason they don't have an exact count is because while you're asked to register with the embassy if you're an American citizen who comes into Afghanistan... some don't. Also some do, but then don't tell the embassy they've since left.

As for who they are - contractors and aid workers I believe comprise almost all that number.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Afghanistan is Vietnam all over again. The timing regarding Presidential administrations even works out.

This is really overemphasizing the cost. Sure it was expensive, but at least most of the money circulated back to US contractors and US employees. Vietnam was horrific losses of life both for US soldiers and native residents of Vietnam.

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foolm0r0n posted...

This is exactly why libertarians are so adamant about pulling out of wars NOW. And it's why the opposition paints us as kooky nuts.

there's a plethora of reasons why i paint libertarians as kooky nuts but that isn't one of them. "war is bad" is one of the few libertarian stances i agree with!

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Thought this was interesting

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-some-socially-liberal-gen-z-voters-arent-leaving-the-gop/

Honestly the takeaway I infer here is Gen Z republicans are driven by anti-cancel culture and dont want people to hurt them when they post unflattering things. This makes sense given its the generation that is the most immature.

Which is pretty interesting. Im still trying to digest what that means for political strategy

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Meanwhile, in New York:



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masterplum posted...

Thought this was interesting

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-some-socially-liberal-gen-z-voters-arent-leaving-the-gop/

Honestly the takeaway I infer here is Gen Z republicans are driven by anti-cancel culture and dont want people to hurt them when they post unflattering things. This makes sense given its the generation that is the most immature.

Which is pretty interesting. Im still trying to digest what that means for political strategy

The idea that the Democratic Party is on some level not be trusted, and corrupted by outside influences, is a foundational belief of the GOP that dates back to the post-Civil War period. The Democratic Party of those time was traitorous (the party of the former Confederacy), corrupt (the party of big city machines) and un-American (immigrants that are being bribed for votes*) in Republicans' eyes. Hell, two out of those three criticisms were actually true! Over the years the exact "special interests" that the Democrats are in thrall to have changed, but there is a core belief about the GOP's existence that remains unchanged.

There's a small subset of Republicans, including some Gen-Z ones, that despite superficially seeming like part of the conservative wing of the Democrats, have proven impossible to crack since this belief in the Democratic Party is so baked in with them. To them the Republican Party is the only "real" political party to represent Americans' interests, and they have the same allegiance to the GOP that people normally show to their country. Sure, we might complain about the USA here on this board, but it would take an awful lot for most of us to do something akin to treason, which is what some of these Republicans feel voting for the Democratic Party is akin to.

To be clear, I am not in any way defending this perspective. It's ridiculous, out dated and completely divorced from reality. I'm just trying to explain it.

*The GOP's point of view, not mine, to be clear

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I mean, I think there is a legitimate reason to fear big government. Republics falling into authoritarian rule has happened a hundred times throughout history by now.

The disconnect at this point is thinking the current day Republican Party is actually a party that supports small government.

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Big Government as Republicans define it isn't anything to be afraid of. What should be feared is mass incarceration.

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Dancedreamer posted...

Big Government as Republicans define it isn't anything to be afraid of. What should be feared is mass incarceration.

I mean communism is the end point Republicans warn about, and that has always resulted in autocracy throughout history.

I mean you can argue slippery slope and whatnot, but completely disregarding the underlying concerns of Republicans is exactly why Cubans in florida came out for Trump

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masterplum posted...

I mean communism is the end point Republicans warn about, and that has always resulted in autocracy throughout history.

Republicans can't even define Communism. Let's not pretend like they even know what it is. To them, communism is anything they don't like. It's nothing more than a buzz word.

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Dancedreamer posted...

Republicans can't even define Communism. Let's not pretend like they even know what it is. To them, communism is anything they don't like. It's nothing more than a buzz word.

Your grouping 70 million people into one collective.

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masterplum posted...

Your grouping 70 million people into one collective.

And it's still not wrong.

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masterplum posted...

I mean you can argue slippery slope and whatnot,

not only can you argue slippery slope, you should.

"big government sucks because it leads to communism" is an asinine take.


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https://twitter.com/elizashapiro/status/1429798201213730816?s=21

While Im quite skeptical about a large fraction of the waiting for full approval people to actually immediately turn around and voluntarily get their shots now that Pfizers approved, I am relatively optimistic about it making local governments/employers more willing to enact mandates!

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I mean sometimes I wonder what your objectives are. If your goal is to feel morally righteous you can absolutely just wave off the concerns as illegitimate. I too think the concerns are mostly unreasonable considering Americas current level of government control.

But moral superiority is 100% the reason Clinton lost. She campaigned in states that werent winnable because she was obviously going to win and Trumps claims were so ludicrous.

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masterplum posted...

I mean sometimes I wonder what your objectives are. If your goal is to feel morally righteous you can absolutely just wave off the concerns as illegitimate. I too think the concerns are mostly unreasonable considering Americas current level of government control.

But moral superiority is 100% the reason Clinton lost. She campaigned in states that werent winnable because she was obviously going to win and Trumps claims were so ludicrous.

i'm not running for president of the united states so i'm perfectly comfortable saying "yup, these takes are dumb as fuck" about dumb takes

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masterplum posted...

But moral superiority is 100% the reason Clinton lost. She campaigned in states that werent winnable because she was obviously going to win and Trumps claims were so ludicrous.

These people aren't reachable. I've given up on them tbh.

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masterplum posted...

I mean communism is the end point Republicans warn about, and that has always resulted in autocracy throughout history.

And yet Republicans never seem to be concerned about autocracy. Hmm, wonder why that is?

it's because autocracy is the GOP's end goal

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Hillary Clinton lost the election because people were sick and tired of her and didn't want a POTUS who's race or gender would be argued over.

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She lost because she's a charisma vacuum

Pokemon go to the polls lmao

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Hillary lost for a LOT of reasons, any one of which could've made the difference, given the extremely small margins between her and Trump in 2016.

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holy shit can we not relitigate 2016 again please

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i'm with her

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