Current Events > Fantasy RPGs aversion to firearms.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was just replaying Pillars of Eternity 2 since I never passed it. That and warhammer: total war made me realize how much I like the 'renaissance' fantasy setting and I'm glad they have guns in their setting.

That made me realize that not many fantasy settings include guns, especially those "medieval" ones that take bits and pieces of inspiration from other historical eras, like plate armor and rapiers being part of a medieval fantasy setting despite those things coming later. Of course if they aim for "realism" in a fantasy setting you would have chainmail and coat of plates rather than plater armor. I've seen arguments citing pop-history views of renaissance era firearms like muskets and arquebuses as being inaccurate, or having short range and some other things. The thing is that historically firearms originally were seen to perform best in "small wars" such as raids, ambuscades and the like where firearm wielders could operate independently, take cover and use the terrain for their advantage basically what your average RPG has you doing. Originally mass number of firearms proved to be ineffective without later drills because a lot of smoke and the stress of battle put a big dent in the accuracy, something that was noted by a French captain who wrote that during the French protestant war of religions the Protestants had a large number of guns but they couldn't stop blocs of pikes from reaching them. Basically the opposite of what people say that "mass guns = win".

In terms of accuracy and even range English mercenary veterans of continental European wars noted that the arquebus was more accurate, more powerful and shot farther than the longbow they had been accustomed to. These authors wrote that the firearm was the weapon of a professional soldier who required extensive drilling meanwhile the longbow was the weapon of the untrained who should only be used when there wasn't any guns around. On the other hand those that favored the longbow tended to be moralists and traditionalists rather than veterans who had experienced the effects these guns had first hand. By the Tudor era the Privy Council deemed any man showing up to muster with a longbow as an "unarmed man".

Just a mini-rant because I really like early firearms. It's a shame they're seldom seen in fantasy RPGs.

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I liked their inclusion in the Fable games.

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Well, they're fantasy. It's a cliche answer but tis true. It's all up to the person or people creating it. I'm sure they're aware that they're just mashing different time periods together, and they probably intentionally leave firearms out even if the society they built would be capable of using them

That's really all there is to it

Also Greedfall has them

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Even though many things aren't accurate in medieval fantasy games they all still have the same feel. Guns put something in a whole new recognizable era that oftentimes feels goofy and out of off place.

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Cuz Medieval Fantasy is boring.

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Some of the bad guys fired bullets in Super Mario RPG.

specialkid8 posted...

Even though many things aren't accurate in medieval fantasy games they all still have the same feel. Guns put something in a whole new recognizable era that oftentimes feels goofy and out of off place.

No they don't. FFX and X-2 had guns that didn't feel out of place, Fable has guns that don't feel out of place.

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Final Fantasy 6, 8, 10, 10-2, Wild Arms, Shadow Hearts had Margaret, guns exist in all kinds of fantasy rpgs.

dave_is_slick posted...

No they don't. FFX and X-2 had guns that didn't feel out of place, Fable has guns that don't feel out of place.

Those are silly games

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specialkid8 posted...

Those are silly games

That wasn't your argument.

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I used a rifle magician in pillars of eternity and it rocks. Magic missile and arquebus pellets to the face

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We ready to go back to Spirits Within yet?

Also FF7 & FF10 say hi

Guns only came to Europe around 1300-1500

So the peak end of the medieval era/ fantasy setting.

That's why anything more in the Renaissance era/fantasy setting is more likely to have fire arms.

Also depends on your idea of fantasy rpg. Ff7, ff10, cyberpunk2077, borderlands, watchdogs and so on are all fantasy rpgs.

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Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

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itachi15243 posted...

Guns only came to Europe around 1300-1500

So the peak end of the medieval era/ fantasy setting.

That's why anything more in the Renaissance era/fantasy setting is more likely to have fire arms.

Also depends on your idea of fantasy rpg. Ff7, ff10, cyberpunk2077, borderlands, watchdogs and so on are all fantasy rpgs.

No. Those are sci-fi

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Smackems posted...

No. Those are sci-fi

Not even borderlands three? There's still bloodborne, destiny one and two, fable 2 and 3, ff10, 7 and 14 plus more ff, new world, greedfall, pillars of eternity 1 and 2, and more.

I don't know if you would include tales of arise or magiguns

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Give me an RPG where I can organize my party into a tercio

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Mr Hangman posted...

RPGs want a variety of weapons so they each have differing strategic tradeoffs. Including realistic modern guns would just make everything else obsolete.

Not true at all

Look at Bloodborne for example. A fairly modern gun (a semi automatic with what is essentially a magazine) is only good if you want it to be

Same in ff7. Barret and Vincent are only as good as you make them.

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Final Fantasy isnt a traditional medieval fantasy setting, honestly. There almost always ends up being some sci-fi techy fusion.

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Kim_Seong-a posted...

Final Fantasy isnt a traditional medieval fantasy setting, honestly. There almost always ends up being some sci-fi techy fusion.

What about ff14 and new world

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itachi15243 posted...

Not true at all

Look at Bloodborne for example. A fairly modern gun (a semi automatic with what is essentially a magazine) is only good if you want it to be

Same in ff7. Barret and Vincent are only as good as you make them.

I think they mean lore wise

Because why the fuck use a sword when you can just unload on the fucker from 100 yards and pierce any armor they're wearing. Assuming medieval or Renaissance armor

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Etrian odyssey has cannons
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Mr Hangman posted...

RPGs want a variety of weapons so they each have differing strategic tradeoffs. Including realistic modern guns would just make everything else obsolete. You can do an actually realistic portrayal of guns mixed in with medieval weapons if they're older style guns, historically they had a much longer overlap than most people realize since for centuries guns just didn't work all that well. But seems like more RPGs opt for the abandonment of any semi-realistic aesthetic with weaponry and just make even modern style guns be inexplicably comparable to swords and bows.

That's not true either. They worked great, and that's why they kept evolving while everything else didn't

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itachi15243 posted...

What about ff14 and new world

The endgame of vanilla 14 literally has you infilitrating a sci-fi techy base and fighting "magitek" armor. >_>

Maybe it was different before ARR idk lol

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Mr Hangman posted...

I said realistic modern guns. As in guns that aren't just aesthetically similar but functionally. I addressed the style of RPG you're talking about later in my post.

They worked poorly enough that people kept using bows and crossbows for several centuries.

......and guns

Tactics are slow to evolve. See: WW1 and Afghanistan

They obviously worked well enough to keep using. You don't use a weapon that doesn't work

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specialkid8 posted...

Even though many things aren't accurate in medieval fantasy games they all still have the same feel. Guns put something in a whole new recognizable era that oftentimes feels goofy and out of off place.

This is the effect of being exposed to something false often enough that you take issue with a more authentic approach.

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Last I'll say about it is that they just werent produced on the same scale that bows as well

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Fft had gunner classes

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itachi15243 posted...

Guns only came to Europe around 1300-1500

I always found it odd that people took so long to come up with the cartridge shells.


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pretty much everyone in my party has some kinda gun in Pillars of Eternity II

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dave_is_slick posted...

No they don't. FFX and X-2 had guns that didn't feel out of place, Fable has guns that don't feel out of place.

X is definitely not the typical fantasy setting. And with fable it fit in cause of the time period it was modeling itself after.

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Arcanum has guns. i never tried playing a build that utilized them so idk how good they are

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PrettyBoyFloyd posted...

I always found it odd that people took so long to come up with the cartridge shells.

I think some were tried before they started to catch on for while but they typically failed for some hideous reason like being either vastly ineffective or two powerful, risking the gun blowing up on you.

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Ratchetrockon posted...

Arcanum has guns. i never tried playing a build that utilized them so idk how good they are

Arcanum has a cool setting. You have your medieval fantasy aesthetic blended with a Victorian fantasy aesthetic with steampunk elements. It was nice to see the developers try to incorporate fantasy races like orcs and elves into a Victorian-like framework.

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Is CoD a fantasy RPG

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HannibalBarca3 posted...

Originally mass number of firearms proved to be ineffective without later drills because a lot of smoke and the stress of battle put a big dent in the accuracy, something that was noted by a French captain who wrote that during the French protestant war of religions the Protestants had a large number of guns but they couldn't stop blocs of pikes from reaching them. Basically the opposite of what people say that "mass guns = win

This makes sense in strategy RPGs where you have an actual war setup with multiple units and battalions, but that's not reallyhow most RPGs function.

I don't think the retort actually is "Mass guns = win". Its usually "A few guns = win". In your average RPG you control a small unit that travels all over the place, taking part in a isolated, small-scale confrontations, not big giant skirmishes where smoke and stress will make guns ineffective.
So in essence, it does make sense that a small unit with fairly modern rifles would likely mow down a handful of enemies in an instant because there aren't any distractions or issues which would limit their accuracy. It's

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itachi15243 posted...

I think some were tried before they started to catch on for while but they typically failed for some hideous reason like being either vastly ineffective or two powerful, risking the gun blowing up on you.

Also the train and industrial stuff.

I know like the Egyptians or Romans were some big deal around the time.

But the shit didn't take off until the Train or the Industrial shit.

It was like we went from nothing to anythings possible within a 100 years.

I mean look how everything advances in a 100 years now compared to a 100,000 years ago?


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