Current Events > Jon Stewart calls out JK Rowling for anti-Semitic goblins in Harry Potter

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masterpug53
01/05/22 3:37:01 PM
#104:


ChocoboMog123 posted...
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ jon-stewart-jk-rowling-anti-semitism-harry-potter-1235069688/

I'm going to assume any, "but you're the real racist" argument is arguing in bad faith from the start.

I'll go a step further and say that any person posting in good faith already understood that this was a case of 'here's these things that are stereotypes, let's try our best to better identify them and not repeat them in the future.' Not 'here's these things that are stereotypes, let's take the monster responsible for this cold and calculated hate crime and burn them at the stake!'

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I4NRulez
01/05/22 3:41:09 PM
#105:


I love these kinda topics because they always end up with delusional people jumping through hoops to defend it because they don't want to burst their precious bubble

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Criminalt
01/05/22 3:43:48 PM
#106:


Funkydog posted...
To my knowledge... the original goblins from folklore had no relations to Jews (save one Cornish fey at some point) and included a whole variety of spirits from evil Redcaps to benevolent Brownies and the evil ones imagery of "ugly, thieves, murderers" etc was a part of them originally.

Later on Jewish people were then also often given these traits, as much easier to spread hatred and lets people blame them more easily when they have something defined to put on them.
Well then, the way I see it, these are the alternatives -- how Gringotts could have been conceptualized differently:

#1. Rowling writes Gringotts as a benevolent, philanthropic institution populated by avuncular, likeable souls. (Portraying bankers as greedy, self-serving, or miserly characters is to be avoided like the plague because, as everyone knows, all bankers are Jews.)

The weakness with this tack is that the bankers are still goblins. As everyone knows (apparently...), all goblins are really Jewish, and since goblins look grotesque -- well, it could be interpreted as implying that Jews are grotesque. So, maybe tear up that script and start again.

#2. Gringotts is written as a cold, heartless institution, but its bankers aren't goblins and have no grotesque attributes whatsoever.

However, this still runs afoul of the drawback that all bankers are Jews; so portraying them in any kind of negative light simply plays up to cheap, antisemitic stereotypes. Tear up that script and start again.

#3. Gringotts is a benevolent, philanthropic institution, and its bankers have no grotesque attributes nor disagreeable traits.

This is almost certainly the safest, least offensive path to take. Does it make sense from a storytelling point of view? That doesn't matter. This isn't about the story.

If you're not satisfied with any of those alternatives, tell us how you think Gringotts should have been portrayed in the movies.

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CyricZ
01/05/22 3:45:14 PM
#107:


I feel like a lot of fantastic races have some roots in real life cultural groups, or at least how they were perceived.

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bobaban
01/05/22 3:45:54 PM
#108:


lol its a bank, every mothafucka working there is greedy. I dont see how goblins look like Jewish people, when that is the stereotypical Goblin look.

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Ubergeneral3
01/05/22 3:46:44 PM
#109:


Did you know the pointy witch hat is a anti semetic stereotype?

honestly it's a common fantasy stereotype. Elves live long, Dwarfs have long beards, Goblins are shewd and greedy traders. It don't see it as a racial problem unless you decide to make a big deal out of it.

Back to the witch hat. No one really cares and I don't see what anyone should care about this either.

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CyricZ
01/05/22 3:47:16 PM
#110:


bobaban posted...
lol its a bank, every mothafucka working there is greedy.
My own gf put on blast over here.


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Solid Snake07
01/05/22 3:49:24 PM
#111:


This is a joke that's been made by multiple people for a pretty damn long time now

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mario2000
01/05/22 3:50:00 PM
#112:


CyricZ posted...
I feel like a lot of fantastic races have some roots in real life cultural groups, or at least how they were perceived.

What's weird though is whenever the "orcs = black people" talking point comes up it's always somehow the fault of whoever invented orcs and not the person who's choosing to see orcs as black people.

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Bad_Mojo
01/05/22 3:59:45 PM
#113:


monkmith posted...
now wait i thought goblins were racist to black people that's what social media was screeching not long ago because of lord of the rings right?

that was orcs

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AceMos
01/05/22 4:03:47 PM
#114:


to ppl going "no no this is just tradition"

one problem witht hat allt hese traditions where made by tolken who was a hard core racist

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Criminalt
01/05/22 4:12:44 PM
#115:


AceMos posted...
to ppl going "no no this is just tradition"

one problem witht hat allt hese traditions where made by tolken who was a hard core racist
Folklore traditions, fairy tales, have got a long heritage that stretches back way before 1937.

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AngelsNAirwav3s
01/05/22 4:14:34 PM
#116:


AceMos posted...
to ppl going "no no this is just tradition"

one problem witht hat allt hese traditions where made by tolken who was a hard core racist

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/4/1/AANRQlAACxq9.jpg

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AceMos
01/05/22 4:15:36 PM
#117:


orc in lord of the ring where based on black ppl this is a well documented fact

but lets step away from all of this

if your writing an entire race as just one thing your writing is racist

the stereo types these fictional races are based on is well known

if your adhearing to those your fallowing the racist stereotype

if you make all dwarfs black smiths yes your being racist

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MushroomMuncher
01/05/22 4:17:51 PM
#118:


AceMos posted...
if your writing an entire race as just one thing your writing is racist
I'm sure all those fictional races that don't actually exist protest every day by the people who created them

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AceMos
01/05/22 4:19:55 PM
#119:


MushroomMuncher posted...
I'm sure all those fictional races that don't actually exist protest every day by the people who created them
most fictional races are based on a real race

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HHH is the game
01/05/22 4:25:22 PM
#120:


As a Jewish person, Jon Stewart is the one being anti-semitic here and anybody that saw that movie and thought they were looking at Jews.


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Criminalt
01/05/22 4:29:16 PM
#121:


AceMos posted...
if you make all dwarfs black smiths yes your being racist
If only more people in today's world would campaign for the rights of Dunmer refugees.

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MushroomMuncher
01/05/22 4:29:43 PM
#122:


AceMos posted...
most fictional races are based on a real race
What about the lizard people from Elder Scrolls, what are they based on

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GhostFaceLeaks
01/05/22 5:06:33 PM
#123:


Should we all agree those who still enjoy Harry Potter at this point agree with everything JK Rowling says and believes in her ideals now?

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#124
Post #124 was unavailable or deleted.
DrizztLink
01/05/22 5:15:38 PM
#125:


FortuneCookie posted...
Go troll somewhere else. "Jews run the banks," "Jews are shrewd," and "Jews have long noses" are all longstanding stereotypes. Like, going back several centuries. I don't believe for an instant that you or J.K. Rowling are unaware of that.
Plus the similarities between said design and the Nazi's caricature, which they are ignoring for some reason.

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DrizztLink
01/05/22 5:17:34 PM
#126:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I think it was more just the straight up "here's a beefy white guy mowing down the evil savages" thing in the initial trailers, completely separate from anything RE related.

I'm going off of memory so I could be entirely wrong.

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Crisys
01/05/22 5:45:45 PM
#127:


Background_Guy posted...
The one important goblin betrays the main characters out of greed

Not reading the rest of the thread but that's incorrect.

He "betrays" the trio because he sensed they were going to betray him, which they expressly were.

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Xanathar
01/05/22 6:11:54 PM
#128:


John, this is a bad bad take dude

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#129
Post #129 was unavailable or deleted.
sLaCkEr408___RJ
01/05/22 6:16:21 PM
#130:


This topic teaches Jewish stereotypes I never knew
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moog
01/05/22 6:18:15 PM
#131:


Funkydog posted...
Sure, but goblins in European folklore weren't based on Jewish stereotypes. People put them on Jews later, and Rowling did so again. I do think it wasn't intentional however, but not a good look either way.

Eh, JKR does not have a good track record for anything "not being intentional"

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Kakapo
01/05/22 6:25:52 PM
#132:


Dont forget the gangster goblin in Fantastic Beasts.

By then there was already a whole lot of pushback to the goblin stereotypes shown.

So they apparently decided to lean even more heavily into it.

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MajesticFerret
01/05/22 8:14:32 PM
#133:


1. JK Rowling wrote a book, she didn't design any movie goblins, not that she would need too, goblins are goblins.

2. Goblins lording over wealth is a common fantasy trope.

3. If someone made anti-semetic comments comparing Jews to goblins, that is on the person who made the original comparison, not on every fantasy author who has goblins, ever.

Jon is massively reaching here and is just jumping on the "let's bully JK Rowling cuz of her trans comments for clout" band wagon.

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Skinwalker_Rnch
01/05/22 8:15:09 PM
#134:


eston posted...

There's really no reason for him not to do this on his podcast just like he did here, although I suspect he's more sensitive to the Jewish stereotypes since he himself is Jewish


Yeah, I'm sure he'll get right on it.
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KiwiTerraRizing
01/05/22 8:17:57 PM
#135:


No he didnt

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Xanathar
01/05/22 8:30:04 PM
#136:


Won't someone think of the poor make believe races?

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sevihaimerej
01/05/22 8:35:24 PM
#137:


I've heard the same said about Leprechauns, all our mythologies are rooted in human experience/stereotypes after all.

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ultimate reaver
01/05/22 8:51:50 PM
#138:


one of the worst thing the internet ever did was give people who consume nothing but YA media a place to congregate and overanalyze simplistic mostly-thoughtless things until they work themselves into a blood frenzy

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Hornswoggled
01/05/22 8:53:14 PM
#139:


I think the only reason people don't call Leprechaun's anti-semitic caricatures is because they are explicitly Irish.
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Skinwalker_Rnch
01/05/22 8:59:36 PM
#140:


Hornswoggled posted...
I think the only reason people don't call Leprechaun's anti-semitic caricatures is because they are explicitly Irish.


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ellis123
01/05/22 8:59:50 PM
#141:


Hornswoggled posted...
I think the only reason people don't call Leprechaun's anti-semitic caricatures is because they are explicitly Irish.
That's kind of the point: they aren't a Jewish stereotype, they're an Irish one. Goblins weren't a Jewish one either, but Rowling somewhat redid their mythos to make the parallel.

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MrNintendo1213
01/05/22 9:21:57 PM
#142:


Hey guys here I came up with an idea for my next book. Let's have some characters with coal black skin, and big bright red lips. They also love watermelon, talk in a silly manner, and used to be slaves. What?? African American stereotypes? No! I had no idea about any of that, you're the racist for pointing it out.

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sevihaimerej
01/05/22 9:32:25 PM
#143:


Hornswoggled posted...
I think the only reason people don't call Leprechaun's anti-semitic caricatures is because they are explicitly Irish.
I didn't mean Leprechauns are anti-Semitic but they are an amalgamation of Irish stereotypes in grotesque, sometimes malevolent form. Truth is, goblins have been jews all along. There is a lot of bigotry baked into classical mythology, fiction is a wonderful window into the minds of our predecessors. Just think, the originators of these stories were the smart ones, if smart people had no problem with HP Lovecraft's racism just imagine how racist the stupids of that era were. Now take that line of thinking deep into the past and you'll start to understand the horrific power of uncontrolled stupid.

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bobaban
01/05/22 9:34:56 PM
#144:


Also since when did Jewish people become known for forging armour and swords??

Thats in the books, sensationalist click bait fuckery is everywhere. And so many of us are suckers for it. Culture was in decline before but its just a fucking free fall now
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NeoShadowhen
01/05/22 9:51:01 PM
#145:


After a cursory search, Im kinda seeing his point but I wouldnt be surprised if I just didnt see the images he was specifically referring to. I dont feel like going any further down that rabbit hole, so Ill take their word for it.

As for Rowling, this seems to hang more on the people who designed the characters (and the set, apparently).
Its been a while, but I do specifically remember thinking that the goblins looked nothing like what I pictured in my head when I was reading the books.
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DrizztLink
01/05/22 10:21:03 PM
#146:


NeoShadowhen posted...
After a cursory search, Im kinda seeing his point but I wouldnt be surprised if I just didnt see the images he was specifically referring to.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/7/8/AABUaRAACxwO.jpg
That's a Harry Potter goblin.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/7/9/AABUaRAACxwP.jpg
This is a cartoon from an actual Nazi newspaper.

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MajesticFerret
01/05/22 11:16:01 PM
#147:


DrizztLink posted...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/7/8/AABUaRAACxwO.jpg
That's a Harry Potter goblin.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/7/9/AABUaRAACxwP.jpg
This is a cartoon from an actual Nazi newspaper.

Those are a huge reach.

One is a bunch of old white dudes with big noses, the later has elven ears, a long pointy nose, sharp claws on his hands...

I guess any old white man looking fictional creature whose nose is a tad too big is taking a shot at Jews now?

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MrMallard
01/05/22 11:20:06 PM
#148:


Background_Guy posted...
Jewish people have been pointing this out for 20 years, lmao.


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averagejoel
01/05/22 11:27:52 PM
#149:


there sure are an awful lot of people on this board who have an extremely shallow and simplistic way of engaging with media!

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DrizztLink
01/05/22 11:30:06 PM
#150:


MajesticFerret posted...
One is a bunch of old white dudes with big noses, the later has elven ears, a long pointy nose, sharp claws on his hands...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/1/6/5/AABUaRAACxxl.jpg
If you prefer that one, the nose is less Wicked Witchy.

Also I'm quite certain I can find cartoons with claws if you'd like.

The thing you're not grasping is that it's not going to be one-to-one identical because no fucking shit that was literally a Nazi newspaper

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Background_Guy
01/06/22 1:05:03 AM
#151:


So Jewish people have noticed the HP goblins leaned heavily into anti-semitic caricatures and many Jewish people have pointed this out for the last 20 years but actually the Jews are the real anti-semites for not just shutting up about it.
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Skinwalker_Rnch
01/06/22 1:06:41 AM
#152:


Background_Guy posted...
So Jewish people have noticed the HP goblins leaned heavily into anti-semitic caricatures and many Jewish people have pointed this out for the last 20 years but actually the Jews are the real anti-semites for not just shutting up about it.


Jewish people like Howard Stern, Sacha Baron Cohen, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, Sarah Silverman, etc. made a career out of stereotyping other minorities including Asians like myself. So I apologize if I'm out of fucks to give.
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ModLogic
01/06/22 1:08:26 AM
#153:


howard stern is the biggest fucking snowflake. his whole show is about giving people shit but the second he is made the joke he takes it personally and goes off on a rant.

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