Current Events > Should billionaires exist?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ah, so this was the topic that sparked that weird true_king meltdown

Rathinor posted...

Ah, so this was the topic that sparked that weird true_king meltdown

What happened?

a free and fair system would have safeguards against that sort of thing, so no

Eat the rich.

ThyCorndog posted...

a free and fair system would have safeguards against that sort of thing, so no

doesnt sound very free

"sorry you cant order this kindle, bezos already made too much money this year"

WingsOfGood posted...

What happened?

he got upset for being called out as a poor person defending why Elon should own the equivalent of 300,000 millionaires worth of power and influence.

Umbreon posted...

There's no honest way to have that much money.

This is a common misconception that money = evil. My great grandfather came over to the US and started a hardware and electric supplies company, helped unionized workers and was one of the nicest people in the world. His other grandkids carried on the family business, kept it in fully legal standing, spun off other companies that helped buy and renovate classic buildings and resell them at a loss just because they were historical to their town.

You hear a lot about the famous billionaires because they have broken the law, done horrible things and tainted an image of having money.

Rest assured there are plenty of rich people who care about people, donate a ton of money and do things to help their community. But nobody wants to hear 'local billionaire builds animal rescue shelter and donates enough money to keep it staffed and non-profit for 10 years" because it doesn't make that person sound evil at all.

You only hear about the bad ones because bad news sells.

g980 posted...

doesnt sound very free

"sorry you cant order this kindle, bezos already made too much money this year"

Bezos would still be rich and you buying the kindle would go towards the people who actually make said kindle and provide the actual labor....

Rather than a guy who kinda just started the company years and years ago and hired a dude to design the kindle who probably only got paid a few thousand and that was it...

@g980

Can't have prisons specifically meant to dole out ironic punishments to billionaires without having billionaires.

Mech_Battalion posted...

This is a common misconception that money = evil. My great grandfather came over to the US and started a hardware and electric supplies company, helped unionized workers and was one of the nicest people in the world. His other grandkids carried on the family business, kept it in fully legal standing, spun off other companies that helped buy and renovate classic buildings and resell them at a loss just because they were historical to their town.

You hear a lot about the famous billionaires because they have broken the law, done horrible things and tainted an image of having money.

Rest assured there are plenty of rich people who care about people, donate a ton of money and do things to help their community. But nobody wants to hear 'local billionaire builds animal rescue shelter and donates enough money to keep it staffed and non-profit for 10 years" because it doesn't make that person sound evil at all.

You only hear about the bad ones because bad news sells.

Is your grandfather a billionaire? If not, all you just said was pointless.

That much money is not a reference to a dude close to a million or a million.

It is referencing someone who has 300,000 millionaires worth of wealth.
Or for you to gain perspective, THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND OF YOUR GRANDFATHER worth in wealth.

@Mech_Battalion

Also, you claim it is a misconception. Are you religious in any way?

1 Timothy 6:10
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Oddly enough, Christianity is actually alot kinder to riches than most other religions and even it says that money and evil definitely correlate.

g980 posted...

doesnt sound very free

"sorry you cant order this kindle, bezos already made too much money this year"

More equitable conditions wouldn't have allowed one person to amass that much wealth to begin with

Plus the company would still exist, but the profits would be distributed more fairly

ThyCorndog posted...

More equitable conditions wouldn't have allowed one person to amass that much wealth to begin with

Plus the company would still exist, but the profits would be distributed more fairly

why? If someone is able to do something more efficiently than everyone else, how is it fair to that person or society to limit their growth?

Its anti-progress, and it's definitely not more free. Let people exchange their money and labor how they want.

g980 posted...

If someone is able to do something more efficiently than everyone else,

They aren't doing something more efficiently than everyone else.

They aren't the ones doing the work. Has Bezos ever delivered a package to a door? no.

WingsOfGood posted...

Is your grandfather a billionaire? If not, all you just said was pointless.

That much money is not a reference to a dude close to a million or a million.

It is referencing someone who has 300,000 millionaires worth of wealth.
Or for you to gain perspective, THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND OF YOUR GRANDFATHER worth in wealth.

@Mech_Battalion

Also, you claim it is a misconception. Are you religious in any way?

1 Timothy 6:10
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Oddly enough, Christianity is actually alot kinder to riches than most other religions and even it says that money and evil definitely correlate.

It is a misconception. Whats the third word in that bible verse you just quoted?

WingsOfGood posted...

1 Timothy 6:10
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Key phrase there: "love of money". Not money itself. Many a persons, when they give abundantly, they receive abundantly and could lead to opportunities that lead to financial abundance and prosperity. If money were the root of evil itself, then reaching financial abundance would inevitably lead to one's corruption and ruin regardless of ones initial stance (if we were to take that saying of "money is the root of all evil" as a dogma ). This why the condition of loving money is explicitly made as it leads to one willing to compromise on their morals to make a quick buck and this is the slippery slope that leads to the corruption we see now.

monkeysRfunny posted...

Whats the third word in that bible verse you just quoted?

Sad_Face posted...

Key phrase there: "love of money".

i find this an interesting conversation. What do you define as the love of money if you cannot say people pursuing more wealth than they could ever spend do not love money?

What this boils down to is that many Christians disagree with Jesus and say it is impossible to love money. Or can you explain how one can love money?

@monkeykid453
@Sad_Face

Sad_Face posted...

This why the condition of loving money is explicitly made as it leads to one willing to compromise on their morals to make a quick buck and this is the slippery slope that leads to the corruption we see now.

This is how business in general works. Why do you not give all your employees who did a good job a huge raise? Because you love money.

The argument you are putting forth just doesn't work. Most who amass loads of wealth do infact love money. If they do not, then in addition to giving it away freely to help people in need, they would also for example give burger flippers $30+ an hour, let people live freely in their properties, etc.

But that seems INSANE to do, right? Why? Because.... you would be LOSING money. Which means you do love money. As such, Jesus did say with God it is possible for the rich man to be a Christian, but we find what he means elsewhere when he asks a rich man to give all he has to the poor.

WingsOfGood posted...

They aren't doing something more efficiently than everyone else.

They aren't the ones doing the work. Has Bezos ever delivered a package to a door? no.

do you think physical labor is the only labor that creates value?

They do.

Kloe_Rinz posted...

You'd be wrong

Nope

g980 posted...

do you think physical labor is the only labor that creates value?

What labor are they doing that is worth billions? The great irony is what is often argued as the value these people at the top of companies provide is making up ways to not pay their employees and exploit them further. Things like removing retirement benefits and eliminating jobs.

darkphoenix181 posted...

i find this an interesting conversation. What do you define as the love of money if you cannot say people pursuing more wealth than they could ever spend do not love money?

I don't believe I ever said or implied such a thing. All I said is that if you love money, you'll be most vulnerable to compromising your morals to make money and this will lead to corruption.

You can still pursue highly financially lucrative ventures without loving money, as what matters the most is your sincere intention. Satoshi Nakamoto set out to build a new banking system as a response to the financial crises, especially the financial crisis of 2008. You wouldn't try to challenge the US dollar if your primary motivation was money. Vitalik Buterin was so moved by the vision of the bitcoin that he dropped out of college to support bitcoin development and spread awareness in 2011 and cofounded Ethereum because the community had so many ideas that they wanted to bring to the bitcoin network but the blockchain couldn't support it. Vitalik is a billionaire right now.

I'm glossing over a good deal of nuances but these people made their riches not by pursuing money but by pursuing a vision they were passionate about and would be chasing after it regardless of how wealthy it would make them. It's pretty difficult to convey.

darkphoenix181 posted...

This is how business in general works. Why do you not give all your employees who did a good job a huge raise? Because you love money.

No. I don't give all my employees a huge raise because it would bankrupt the company and then no one would be able to work there anymore.

The argument you are putting forth just doesn't work. Most who amass loads of wealth do infact love money. If they do not, then in addition to giving it away freely to help people in need, they would also for example give burger flippers $30+ an hour, let people live freely in their properties, etc.

This line of thinking is akin to the World Health Organization claiming if Elon Musk donated $6 Billion, they could solve hunger in Africa, to which Musk called their BS on. If you keep giving away money, you form a dependence on you for survival. The optimal solution is to build a system in which someone could thrive and support themselves without you constantly subsidizing.

But that seems INSANE to do, right? Why? Because.... you would be LOSING money. Which means you do love money. As such, Jesus did say with God it is possible for the rich man to be a Christian, but we find what he means elsewhere when he asks a rich man to give all he has to the poor.

Because I don't want to burn money, I must love money. This doesn't make sense. I don't understand why there would be only 2 options here.

WorsCaseOntario posted...

Nope

bang up job you did proving your point.

Sad_Face posted...

Because I don't want to burn money, I must love money. This doesn't make sense. I don't understand why there would be only 2 options here.

I am sure this is what the rich young ruler thought as he departed Jesus sorrowfully.

Matthew 19
20 The young man said to Him, All these things I have (I)kept [d]from my youth. What do I still lack?
21 Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, (J)go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

This is burning money right? This wouldn't even help those poor people right? Teach a man to fish, etc.

Put simply, a man who keeps his money because he says things your last post said, is love of money. Raises don't bankrupt companies, they bankrupt profits. Charities aren't perfect, but they help people. Elon sitting on his wealth infact actually is a net negative for the world.

Jesus proved what he meant by the good samaritan.

Luke 10
35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. Look after him, he said, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.
36 Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?

What if the man stayed at the inn for months?
The good samaritan didn't care about burning money, he cared about PEOPLE.

So what happens when someone's net worth is $999,999,999.99?

Does the government just take whatever "worth" they gain beyond that?

And how does the government then transfer that "worth" to someone poorer, especially if it's not liquid?

Handing a poor person 5 shares of Apple stock doesn't really help them pay the rent.

The question shouldn't be "Should Billionaires Exist", but rather "Should Billionaires Exist who have more than 40 Billion Dollars". There are those billionaires that work hard for their money, and as such should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Past that its a bit much, and all extra money should be going back to paying off the national debt.

Why not?

darkphoenix181 posted...

This is burning money right? This wouldn't even help those poor people right? Teach a man to fish, etc.

Put simply, a man who keeps his money because he says things your last post said, is love of money. Raises don't bankrupt companies, they bankrupt profits. Charities aren't perfect, but they help people. Elon sitting on his wealth infact actually is a net negative for the world.

Looking at the verse you brought up:

21 Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, (J)go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

He said if you want to be perfect, not if you don't love money.

Ivany2008 posted...

The question shouldn't be "Should Billionaires Exist", but rather "Should Billionaires Exist who have more than 40 Billion Dollars". There are those billionaires that work hard for their money, and as such should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Past that its a bit much, and all extra money should be going back to paying off the national debt.

Why 40 though? Why not 39? 35? 30?

Who decides the number?

bigblu89 posted...

Why 40 though? Why not 39? 35? 30?

Who decides the number?

The point wasn't the number. The point is that there should be a cutoff but I don't think having a single billion dollars should be it. There are things that high amounts of money are required to buy to run a company.

Sad_Face posted...

He said if you want to be perfect, not if you don't love money.

What do you think that means?

Ivany2008 posted...

The point wasn't the number. The point is that there should be a cutoff but I don't think having a single billion dollars should be it. There are things that high amounts of money are required to buy to run a company.

I know. I was making the same point.

Who's to decide how much wealth is "too much wealth"?

To some people, making $200k a year seems excessive.

So it's one of those things where if they decide $40 billion in wealth is too much, someone will then say it should actually be $35, then $30, etc etc.

The idea of there being a cutoff point is silly. If the means by which someone is accumulating money is immoral, then it is going to be immoral regardless of being a millionaire or billionaire. Some arbitrary cutoff just means theyll better learn how to disperse their assets so as to appear under the cutoff point .

Nemu posted...

The idea of there being a cutoff point is silly. If the means by which someone is accumulating money is immoral, then it is going to be immoral regardless of being a millionaire or billionaire. Some arbitrary cutoff just means theyll better learn how to disperse their assets so as to appear under the cutoff point .

That's exactly what would end up happening.

Wealth would just get transferred to a trusted source, creating two "threshold
billionaires instead of two.

darkphoenix181 posted...

What do you think that means?

Let me rephrase since I misspoke. If I choose not to go the path Jesus spoke of, this doesn't imply that I love money, it's that I chose not to take his route to become perfect.

How kan the love of money be the root of all evil if evil existed before humans? They got money in heaven? Christians got another day job to look forwards to after death? Was Satan's rebellion about trickle down economics?

yes if because of rewards for innovation at scale
no if because of inheritance

The_Korey posted...

How kan the love of money be the root of all evil if evil existed before humans? They got money in heaven? Christians got another day job to look forwards to after death? Was Satan's rebellion about trickle down economics?

it's talking about the root of all evil for humans - the love for money. not the existence of an abstract concept of evil in itself, but how the root of all evil really gets its start in someone's heart. basically happens to someone when they want more and more and become greedy and it's all about money/power/control

pure_temper posted...

it's talking about the root of all evil for humans - the love for money. not the existence of an abstract concept of evil in itself, but how the root of all evil really gets its start in someone's heart. basically happens to someone when they want more and more and become greedy and it's all about money/power/control

What money/power/kontrol did Abel have before Cain murdered him?

Sad_Face posted...

Let me rephrase since I misspoke. If I choose not to go the path Jesus spoke of, this doesn't imply that I love money, it's that I chose not to take his route to become perfect.

You misunderstand.

The man wasn't asking Jesus how to be perfect, he was asking how to be a Christian.

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Jesus reply here means complete, not perfection in the sense we usually see it as today.
The man just wanted eternal life.

Same is used elsewhere:

2 timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This isn't extra you can choose to just not do, this is the basics.

If you say "I choose not to go that route" you made the same choice as the rich young ruler, yes, you love money.
But I am sure you can find a pastor that could lie about it make you feel good.

When I'm a teacher and I pay more in taxes than Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and other rich morons that got rich from their parents, there is a massive problem.

So no, there should not be billionaires. No one needs that much money for any reason.

Alternatively Jesus whole condemning riches did say it was not impossible for a rich man to convert:

Mark 10
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

We actually know what he is referring to however as many rich in the early church liberally gave away their wealth for no other reason than that the Christians in Jerusalem might continue to learn from the apostles.

Acts 4
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Infact a couple was greedy and got punished by death as an example for it:

Acts 5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Yes, his crime was lying to the Holy Spirit, he did not have to sell his land, but greed and pride is what motivated him to lie to the Holy Spirit.

However, suppose a man with great wealth decided in his heart to not participate in this and he saw his brother in need but refused.
This man would have erred for he would love money. This is what most Christians who say "riches aren't evil, loving them is" do today.

For who is my neighbor? The man who needs to GET A JOB and get off his LAZY BUTT?
Is THAT my neighbor? NO!

Right?

Nevertheless, the idea of just general charity being something that proves you do not love money is also false. Much charity today is done for 2 things.

1. Tax write off
2. Appear righteous before man like the Pharisees

Infact the Pharisees would do this very thing to be seen of men.

There is much complexity and nuance to the issue, but the bottom line is most who claim they do not love money infact spend all their days pursuing it, and they rarely will let it go even when it is for a good cause.

Behold a man who lived his life just to live in ease and luxury. By the Christian doctrine, he is condemned:

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.

What is wrong with building a big retirement fund and enjoying your life?

Well, Jesus finds it wrong because his claim is this:
a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 2
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Basically hording money is not really good works to Jesus. He said as much when he was not impressed by the rich people donating great wealth to God via the temple collection:

Luke 21
1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites.[a] 3 So He said, Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings [b]for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.

Ironically, many Christians believe their pursuit of riches is justified if they plan on donating wealth to their churches. Yet, if that were so, then why did Jesus not commend these men?

The_Korey posted...

What money/power/kontrol did Abel have before Cain murdered him?

God's favor and attention

some translations have it say

the love of money is root of all manner of evil

https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-10.htm

but the point shouldn't be lost that the love of money motivates one to be tempted to do all sorts of evil