Current Events > FromSoftware fans are weird like this

(+) Yeah! (+)

Git...Gud...Scrubs!!!!

EmbraceOfDeath posted...

Lol KH2 is not hard at all. That was a big complain when it first came out.

critical mode is more difficult than anything in dark souls

BlackBlueButts posted...

Soulsborne is really all about leaving your ego at the door for able bodied people. How many jump in right after assassins creed, god of war, spider man or some other triple A title that doesn't punish you for making mistakes and makes you feel powerful, then hate on their first souls game?

So basically it is hard since you're saying it's harder than other triple a titles.

And don't say "no most games are easy"; what "most games" are difficulty wise would set the average. Being harder than "most games" would make them hard.

Is it that difficult to accept the compliment that you're better at games than the average gamer?

People who invent strawmen of people who play video games are weirder.

TetsuoS2 posted...

sometimes i feel like people spend more time complaining about these supposed dark souls fans than the game itself.

it's weird. With all the communities for gaming, I follow the Souls series is really welcoming. Of course, there are toxic people who take "Git Gud" way too seriously but the souls community never shies away from helping new people.

The people that complain about Dark Souls are a lot more toxic than the people that like it.

people would always help you if you asked, there are always dorks, but i found that they don't really exist as much as people talk about them.

Good and bad are extremely relative terms, but I do wonder what it's like to wake up every single day knowing you could change millions of lives for the better but instead you want to send rich people and celebrities to space

I4NRulez posted...

The people that complain about Dark Souls are a lot more toxic than the people that like it.

Have you seen any discussion over accessibility options? Or any criticism at all?

"Maybe the map could be a higher resolution..."
"No! Miyazaki deliberately made the map a low resolution so that it's hard to read like an old fashioned map :)"

There seems to be a tendency in nerd culture, in general, toward extremism. Like on a difficulty scale of 1 to 10, it's only level 10 that is considered "difficult" and everything from 1-9 is considered "easy." Which is totally warped and misguided.

Despite my previous comment, I have to admit that the people that say that kinda stuff are likely just a loud minority.

TMOG posted...

"These games actually have very good stories, here's a YouTube video that goes over all the lore the game itself didn't"

XDD

FurryPhilosifer posted...

Have you seen any discussion over accessibility options? Or any criticism at all?

"Maybe the map could be a higher resolution..."
"No! Miyazaki deliberately made the map a low resolution so that it's hard to read like an old fashioned map :)"

This didn't happen.

I've said this multiple times, but there are absolutely more people complaining about soul's fans than soul's fans telling people to git gud, or what have you.

mario2000 posted...

This didn't happen.

Of course it did. I think it was on Twitter or Reddit. Why would I make this up?

FurryPhilosifer posted...

Have you seen any discussion over accessibility options? Or any criticism at all?

"Maybe the map could be a higher resolution..."
"No! Miyazaki deliberately made the map a low resolution so that it's hard to read like an old fashioned map :)"

Damn reminds me of the time this interaction happened

Me "Dark Souls is a fun game"
Then a dark souls hater called me the n word.

The accessibility generation lol

I dunno, it's kind of like saying "Basketball is hard". It's like, what's your approach, what are your goals, what are you willing to put in, and what is too frustrating for you to continue? At the end of the day fighting any boss in a Souls-like still comes down to using two joysticks, your B/O button, and one or a few of the shoulder buttons. The only "thought" that goes into it is memorizing a couple dozen animations and developing the correct reactions to them. At any point you can grind for more levels if you really want to (And grinding, if we're being honest, usually doesn't take a ton of time if you use a little bit of planning or simple research). It's not a complex task, there aren't many systems you need to learn to do it, and a little bit of research on the internet can give you in-depth explanations of multiple ways to do it.

I think the bigger issue, at least for people who are familiar with easier action games, is either pride or low tolerance for delayed gratification. Pride that prevents you from seeking help or using simpler, more ideal strategies, and a low tolerance that makes the accomplishment unworthy of the work needed. Neither of those are indictments of the person, honestly, but it's why many people clash with Souls-like. That's okay. You don't have to play Souls-like if you don't like delayed gratification.

My conclusion is that Souls-games are not particularly complex or meta-adaptive systems despite the veneer, and thus I can't honestly say they are particularly hard. They're challenging, in that they require determination and practice, but the challenge is surmountable by most people as long as they have the motivation to do so. Or, in other terms, Masters level mathematics is "hard" in a way that is far, far more unreachable than the way in which digging a hole is "hard". Most people can dig a hole, they just don't want to. Not everyone can become a professional mathematician.

There are, however, plenty of games that set milestones that are not accomplishable regardless of motivation or tolerances. These are games with innately complex or mechanically difficult systems that stress even high-level players consistently, and they can range from something like Europa Univeralis 4's more difficult achievements (The depth and width of the many systems has a high knowledge barrier and requires excellent critical thinking skills and absolute systems mastery), competitive FPSes or MOBAs like Counter-Strike, Overwatch, or LoL (Often combining layered meta-strategies and near-perfect mechanical execution), to the Advanced Squad Leader board game (A deluge of situational and complicated rules intended to precisely simulate combat that puts a premium on memorization combined with active reasoning and tactics just to get started). If we are having a serious conversation about "difficulty", then these are important concepts to consider separately.

Oh good god here we go lol

Is sekiro a good dark souls game to try? I haven't played any of them before

"Dark souls fans are really positive actually :)"
"idk I've seen a lot of dumb things, probably just a minority tho-"
"you're lying"

yeah, no toxicity at all.

emblem boy posted...

Is sekiro a good dark souls game to try? I haven't played any of them before

Its a good game but its a lot different from the souls game. Its more based on stealth and action based combat.

It's definitely worth a play. Its a great game regardless

I don't feel like reading through this entire thread, is this another one where people are whining about not having an easy mode?

BignutzisBack posted...

I don't feel like reading through this entire thread, is this another one where people are whining about not having an easy mode?

Nah. It's one where people are whining about the people whining about the people whining about not having an easy mode. No, that was not sarcasm.

You know what's really good. King's Field, and Shadow Tower Abyss (the original shadow tower is okay). Also Armored Core, mech games need to make a comeback.

harley2280 posted...

You know what's really good. King's Field, and Shadow Tower Abyss (the original shadow tower is okay). Also Armored Core, mech games need to make a comeback.

There are rumors that the next FromSoft game is going to be a new Armored Core entry.

Would be dope if they can successfully apply all the lessons they've learned over the last decade to the AC Franchise. It might legitimately put Mech games back on the map.

pinky0926 posted...

Hollow Knight fans are exactly the same, and probably the same breed.

Like I beat Nightmare King Grimm. Probably the hardest gaming thing I've done since trying to unlock invincibility in GoldenEye. That guy was REALLY HARD.

And these motherfuckers are like "he's not that hard, you just have to learn perfect timing, never get hit and be prepared to slog it out for 25 minutes".

jesus. What is hard, dark souls fans?

omg i wanted to love hollow knight like so many others, I can get used to hard fights. but i can't tolerate being spat out 5 miles away each time in a neutered state. just have the decency to put me right back at the start of the fight

Eh. There's plenty of fans that know exactly what you think they don't. Ask yourself why you gotta focus on the annoying fans to generalize and feel above a whole community. You could just focus and talk to the more reasonable fans.

You can do this with any large community you're part of as well

this is the worst video game fanbase

Pogo_Marimo posted...

I dunno, it's kind of like saying "Basketball is hard". It's like, what's your approach, what are your goals, what are you willing to put in, and what is too frustrating for you to continue? At the end of the day fighting any boss in a Souls-like still comes down to using two joysticks, your B/O button, and one or a few of the shoulder buttons. The only "thought" that goes into it is memorizing a couple dozen animations and developing the correct reactions to them. At any point you can grind for more levels if you really want to (And grinding, if we're being honest, usually doesn't take a ton of time if you use a little bit of planning or simple research). It's not a complex task, there aren't many systems you need to learn to do it, and a little bit of research on the internet can give you in-depth explanations of multiple ways to do it.

I think the bigger issue, at least for people who are familiar with easier action games, is either pride or low tolerance for delayed gratification. Pride that prevents you from seeking help or using simpler, more ideal strategies, and a low tolerance that makes the accomplishment unworthy of the work needed. Neither of those are indictments of the person, honestly, but it's why many people clash with Souls-like. That's okay. You don't have to play Souls-like if you don't like delayed gratification.

My conclusion is that Souls-games are not particularly complex or meta-adaptive systems despite the veneer, and thus I can't honestly say they are particularly hard. They're challenging, in that they require determination and practice, but the challenge is surmountable by most people as long as they have the motivation to do so. Or, in other terms, Masters level mathematics is "hard" in a way that is far, far more unreachable than the way in which digging a hole is "hard". Most people can dig a hole, they just don't want to. Not everyone can become a professional mathematician.

There are, however, plenty of games that set milestones that are not accomplishable regardless of motivation or tolerances. These are games with innately complex or mechanically difficult systems that stress even high-level players consistently, and they can range from something like Europa Univeralis 4's more difficult achievements (The depth and width of the many systems has a high knowledge barrier and requires excellent critical thinking skills and absolute systems mastery), competitive FPSes or MOBAs like Counter-Strike, Overwatch, or LoL (Often combining layered meta-strategies and near-perfect mechanical execution), to the Advanced Squad Leader board game (A deluge of situational and complicated rules intended to precisely simulate combat that puts a premium on memorization combined with active reasoning and tactics just to get started). If we are having a serious conversation about "difficulty", then these are important concepts to consider separately.

Look here steakhead, I didnt ask for your 2 bit opinion of what was easier or harder and I am not complaining, (Believe me youd know it if I was complaining) I asked a simple question. I didnt ask for a lecture on how you or anyone else does things.

"Dark souls isn't hard you just need to know this build and where to get these exact items despite this being your first time playing"

AngelicRadiance posted...

"Dark souls isn't hard you just need to know this build and where to get these exact items despite this being your first time playing"

nothing is stopping you from starting over when you gain new knowledge if you messed up your build

nfearurspecimn posted...

nothing is stopping you from starting over when you gain new knowledge if you messed up your build

That's not like fun tho

I can't speak for the other Souls games but I just didn't find DS1 that hard. It has moments of definite difficulty and some sections are roadblocks I think but the only thing I spent a truly lengthy amount of time on was probably the DLC, which is obviously optional.

I'm not big on the "git gud" thing though and I'd like them to implement easy modes exclusively to make hardcore nerds really mad because it'd be really, really funny to watch the meltdowns ensue over accessibility.

also the reason the "git gud" thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me is because you don't have to actually put much time into some detailed build in order to beat the game. Your best bet is usually to upgrade a few advantageous weapons and make sure you can shield/dodge a lot lol the game would be a cakewalk if you did whole ass spreadsheets

pinky0926 posted...

Hollow Knight fans are exactly the same, and probably the same breed.

Like I beat Nightmare King Grimm. Probably the hardest gaming thing I've done since trying to unlock invincibility in GoldenEye. That guy was REALLY HARD.

And these motherfuckers are like "he's not that hard, you just have to learn perfect timing, never get hit and be prepared to slog it out for 25 minutes".

jesus. What is hard, dark souls fans?

He's fucking hard. What I will say though is that he's very well-made - while fighting him, I actually felt like I was making progress and getting better every time I failed; I never felt like the fight was unfair. Compare that to dream Zote, who was just "do the same thing but with MORE DAMAGE" and just felt like a pain in the ass to keep fighting.

NightMarishPie posted...

I've said this multiple times, but there are absolutely more people complaining about soul's fans than soul's fans telling people to git gud, or what have you.

Came in to say this.

Ving_Rhames posted...

Came in to say this.

And the major difference to me is that one side is having fun playing something they love. Well, the other end is getting upset because people are enjoying something they love "too much". Even if they're being kind of douchey about it, isn't it also douchey to try to ruin the party for something that's not even relevant in your life.

Admittedly Ive done this in the past to FFVIII fans. Went into topics just to shit on it. But I realized how lame that is and stopped doing it even as a joke. Cause the joke just wasn't that funny to begin with. It's such an ugly trait to want to ruin stuff for other people just cause you find people enjoying it mildly annoying. Just go find something you love instead of letting yourself become just as annoying if not more than the people you're upset with.

Oubliettes posted...

Look here steakhead, I didnt ask for your 2 bit opinion of what was easier or harder and I am not complaining, (Believe me youd know it if I was complaining) I asked a simple question. I didnt ask for a lecture on how you or anyone else does things.

This is an oddly brief copypasta.

I would never ever say that any Souls game is "easy".

FurryPhilosifer posted...

Of course it did. I think it was on Twitter or Reddit. Why would I make this up?

"it totally for real happened i saw it on twitter or reddit i can't remember but just trust me bro"

Every time I think I want to give a Souls game another chance I think about how much time I spent wandering aimlessly through Dark Souls without any clear objective and I'm like fuck that

Wander aimlessly. Get jumped everytime you round a corner. Fall into a beginners trap. Repeat

They're all relatively hard at the beginning with no learning curve. The beginning is legitimately harder than the end. I think you could hand a new player the controller at the end of a Souls game and he'd have an easier time on the last boss than the first. This is basically my only complaint imo.

They're all relatively hard at the beginning with no learning curve. The beginning is legitimately harder than the end.

actually this is where i think elden ring got it right. you don't start out barely able to kill stuff.

Im a prophet who has been dumping everything into FAITH / STR but still havent found an actual good faith sword at level 80 and lots of hours in!

Havent been using guides except for spoiler-free map when I think I am done with an area.

Everything one-shots me if it hits me.

Fluttershy posted...

They're all relatively hard at the beginning with no learning curve. The beginning is legitimately harder than the end.

actually this is where i think elden ring got it right. you don't start out barely able to kill stuff.

I've beaten half the souls games and I still suck. Or rather the big stuff kills me and humans die without putting up any fight whatsoever. The windups and the timing of things with the "hard" enemies are harder to predict than in the other games imo.

Mibahlzitch posted...

So basically it is hard since you're saying it's harder than other triple a titles.

And don't say "no most games are easy"; what "most games" are difficulty wise would set the average. Being harder than "most games" would make them hard.

Is it that difficult to accept the compliment that you're better at games than the average gamer?

Well what I'm saying is if you mess up, you get punished. That's what really messes with average players, since they're used to the game rewarding them for doing anything, and not punishing them for messing up. If you get past that you can beat souls. It's a big mentality issue first, before any difficulty mechanics.

shironinja posted...

Im a prophet who has been dumping everything into FAITH / STR but still havent found an actual good faith sword at level 80 and lots of hours in!

Use your ashes of war to change the scaling type of a sword you like to take advantage of faith, if you have one available.

It's been an annoying thing watching some blind playthroughs. Hearing them complain about the weapons, but not once have they actually looked at the ashes of war menu to see that it would address their problems.

Your original post seems to describe a type of difficulty, at least to me. What is your definition of difficult for video games?