Board 8 > Worst Video Game Story Cliche?

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Kenri posted...

Unstoppable Hero Until there's a cutscene

I hate this shit. If it's used sparingly to make a point it's okay, but way more often your party can kill anything in gameplay but are completely helpless against even the most minor villains in cutscenes. Xenosaga was terrible about this, for instance.

One of the worst offenses was in Final Fantasy X when Tidus attempts to stop the Seymour wedding. After defeating a number of Seymour's armed soldiers in battle, Tidus and Co. stop short when they get guns pulled on them in a cutscene. Took me right out of the story.

Sheep007 posted...

This is a really interesting perspective to me, because there's not much that irritates me more than choices that appear genuinely relevant which have no impact when the game advertises that your choices matter.

well I also tend to disagree when people say, for instance, that Mass Effect's choices don't matter

like I get being upset with how little distinction there might be in the endings themselves (although that's one of those choices where I find the value in the philosophical debate of which choice I would make) but I don't think the consequences need to completely alter the story to "matter"

plasmabeam posted...

One of the worst offenses was in Final Fantasy X when Tidus attempts to stop the Seymour wedding. After defeating a number of Seymour's armed soldiers in battle, Tidus and Co. stop short when they get guns pulled on them in a cutscene. Took me right out of the story.

actually the worst offender is the Trails series where this happens about a dozen times per game

Leonhart4 posted...

You're a sham!
The detective's a sham!
>>>I'm a sham!

See I like these.

I don't like when it pretends to matter and it doesn't.

LeonhartFour posted...

well I also tend to disagree when people say, for instance, that Mass Effect's choices don't matter

like I get being upset with how little distinction there might be in the endings themselves (although that's one of those choices where I find the value in the philosophical debate of which choice I would make) but I don't think the consequences need to completely alter the story to "matter"

Totally agreed. A lot of ME choices have at least short-term consequences. I don't think every choice needs to alter the ending.

pyresword posted...

My hot take is that I don't like games giving you story/dialogue choices at all.

I agree, though tbh it's related to choices not really mattering in most games -- or, maybe more accurately, that being offered one choice every 4 hours only highlights the fact that you're being railroaded 99% of the time. Mass Effect 1 was a big offender for this. There are a couple big story choices and honestly some have consequences within that game and others don't, but either way, the vast majority of the time the game forces Shepard to act like a dipshit regardless of what you want to do. I'd rather just not have choices at all.

colliding posted...

I honestly can't think of a silent protagonist that's ever bothered me.

I'm usually indifferent to them, but Byleth from FE Three Houses being silent was just an egregiously bad decision. Something about it being a series that's (almost) never had a silent protagonist before made it 100x worse.

Kenri posted...

I'm usually indifferent to them, but Byleth from FE Three Houses being silent was just an egregiously bad decision. Something about it being a series that's (almost) never had a silent protagonist before made it 100x worse.

Right. Despite being avatars, even Corrin and Robin had character to them.

plasmabeam posted...

One of the worst offenses was in Final Fantasy X

I actually don't remember this particularly, but yeah your characters that have felled 100 enemies with guns should not be threatened when held up at gunpoint. I mean those things take like 300 hits to kill someone!

I'd say one of the biggest cliche in rpgs is if it's a religion, yeah, it's secretly EVIL 99% of the time

ZeeksFire posted...

I'd say one of the biggest cliche in rpgs is if it's a religion, yeah, it's secretly EVIL 99% of the time

Yeah, that's usually the case with JRPGs, particularly FF and Xeno.

Pretty sure Ys paints a neutral/positive picture of religion. You can recruit a nun in Ys VIII, and in Ys IX you got perks for donating food to the church.

It's also neutral in Trails (brought to you by the makers of Ys) so far but there's still time for the church to become evil so we'll see

Leonhart4 posted...

It's also neutral in Trails

https://i.imgur.com/FvoGyUd.jpeg

The church is always helpful in Dragon Quest. Governments can be evil, but not the church.

plasmabeam posted...

Character who joins, leaves, joins, leaves, and joins your party again

Shout out to Skies of Arcadia for doing this trope right early on in the game. It made enough sense why it happened to start with, but they still got cheeky when that party member finally stayed for a good amount of time.

KamikazePotato posted...

The church is always helpful in Dragon Quest. Governments can be evil, but not the church.

But people INSIDE the church...different story. Pretty much everyone save Fransisco in VIII is using the church as a power play . Marcello in particular is a right bastard.

_SecretSquirrel posted...

Shout out to Skies of Arcadia for doing this trope right early on in the game. It made enough sense why it happened to start with, but they still got cheeky when that party member finally stayed for a good amount of time.

The way Drachma initially left the party made total sense within the context of the story. But then the revolving door of Gilder/Enrique drew too much attention to the trope IMO.

Johnbobb posted...

Other: defeating an enemy in gameplay only for it to play a cutscene after showing the enemy getting the upper hand on you anyway

This man gets it

The absolute worst

MZero posted...

This man gets it

The absolute worst

how's that different from "Unstoppable Hero Until there's a cutscene"

I've gotten quite sick of the "teens killing god" trope which is like 80% of all JRPGs

squexa posted...

I've gotten quite sick of the "teens killing god" trope which is like 80% of all JRPGs

Much as I love some of those stories, you have a valid complaint. That cliche often gets overlooked because usually the force of antagonism is grounded at the start. It's not until much later that a god becomes the villain.

Or the villain becomes a god.

plasmabeam posted...

One of the worst offenses was in Final Fantasy X when Tidus attempts to stop the Seymour wedding. After defeating a number of Seymour's armed soldiers in battle, Tidus and Co. stop short when they get guns pulled on them in a cutscene. Took me right out of the story.

at that point Seymour is right there so they would have to fight those guys while worrying about Seymour, who takes the whole party to deal with. Also it's a bigger group, so it's quite a bit different than those little groups you fight on the way

Characters changing all the time

E.g. in FFXII, from a gameplay perspective it's annoying

Gods these days ain't what they used to be

plasmabeam posted...

The way Drachma initially left the party made total sense within the context of the story. But then the revolving door of Gilder/Enrique drew too much attention to the trope IMO.

Also there isn't really a revolving door. It's Gilder for a while and then it's Enrique until the end when you can actually choose who you want the 4th to be.

MZero posted...

at that point Seymour is right there so they would have to fight those guys while worrying about Seymour, who takes the whole party to deal with. Also it's a bigger group, so it's quite a bit different than those little groups you fight on the way

Fair point, but my problem with it is the fact that Tidus sees a gun and acts like he hasn't already been shot by several consecutive enemies.

Another thing I've been thinking about is the inverse of the "Unstoppable Hero Until There's a Cutscene."

You also have the "Grounded Hero Until There's a Cutscene." Perfect example would be Snake in MGS: The Twin Snakes. During gameplay, the most physically impressive thing he can do is roll around. But when cutscenes hit, he's capable of jumping off a fired missile in a Matrix-esque display of timing, balance, and athleticism.

I remember a Zero Punctuation episode where Yahtzee saw that sort of thing (Dante from DMC I think), and went, "Gee, it would be fun if I was allowed to do all that stuff during gameplay!"

Strife2 posted...

I remember a Zero Punctuation episode where Yahtzee saw that sort of thing (Dante from DMC I think), and went, "Gee, it would be fun if I was allowed to do all that stuff during gameplay!"

Ahhh, that's perfect!

Oh yeah Dante is perfect inverse.

Effortlessly destroys everyone in cutscenes, and as soon as the player gets control he gets jumped by 3 mooks and dies.

pjbasis posted...

Oh yeah Dante is perfect inverse.

Effortlessly destroys everyone in cutscenes, and as soon as the player gets control he gets jumped by 3 mooks and dies.

Are you sure about that? When I was playing DMC I effortlessly destroyed everyone in gameplay, too.

I like most of these tropes tbh.

I wouldnt say I hate it, but when games have inconsistent death states, thats when I get annoyed.

Like sometimes reducing a characters HP to zero triggers a cutscene where they die, but others trigger a cutscene where they escape wounded.

Just trigger the cutscene before the HP bar is empty, and dont animate an in-battle death and make them take a knee (I love when JRPGs do this, then you are prepared to watch them escape) lol.

You also have the hero who becomes a villain and instantly becomes ten times stronger than he was before, or the powerful villain who becomes a hero and immediately becomes completely average (and dies 90% of the time).

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I wouldnt say I hate it, but when games have inconsistent death states, thats when I get annoyed.

Like sometimes reducing a characters HP to zero triggers a cutscene where they die, but others trigger a cutscene where they escape wounded.

Just trigger the cutscene before the HP bar is empty, and dont animate an in-battle death and make them take a knee (I love when JRPGs do this, then you are prepared to watch them escape) lol.

This is a good one. It really cheats the player and diminishes the impact of the story. The "I just fought and killed this guy so he can escape" Syndrome.

Leonhart4 posted...

You also have the hero who becomes a villain and instantly becomes ten times stronger than he was before, or the powerful villain who becomes a hero and immediately becomes completely average (and dies 90% of the time).

Like how Magus goes from having 6666 HP as a boss, then has HP in the hundreds when he joins you? Yeah, this one drives me nuts.

Mac Arrowny posted...

Are you sure about that? When I was playing DMC I effortlessly destroyed everyone in gameplay, too.

That's why it's better than the reverse trope. You can get good and replicate the cutscenes!

(Although Dante actually shrugs off attacks that genuinely hit him in cutscene that would be enough to kill him in gameplay so it STILL STANDS)

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Just trigger the cutscene before the HP bar is empty, and dont animate an in-battle death and make them take a knee

Speaking of rpgs tropes I do like: unique loss animations. palmer is a great boss fight for that alone

plasmabeam posted...

Like how Magus goes from having 6666 HP as a boss, then has HP in the hundreds when he joins you? Yeah, this one drives me nuts.

I mean, he may lose a ton of HP but his damage also goes up, and in the long run gets way higher than it ever was an enemy. This is more of a function of the fact that JRPG combat systems almost always have enemies with tons of health but low damage and players with the opposite than anything else.

plasmabeam posted...

Like how Magus goes from having 6666 HP as a boss, then has HP in the hundreds when he joins you? Yeah, this one drives me nuts.

I can't even imagine being bothered by this one, this is just the realities of the game's combat system. The compromises would either be that the Magus boss fight is weak and lame, or Magus is so overpowered that it renders the game trivial.

Yeah, from a gameplay perspective, I understand why it happens because otherwise it breaks the game, but this topic is about story tropes. Magus is honestly kind of an exception!

I'm actually one of the people who voted for the "Villain hellbent on world domaination" option. Most of these don't really seem that bad to me -

Amnesia - Honestly, this is a really useful cliche. I get that it feels overused but it has a really strong purpose in games specifically - to put the player character and the player on the same level of information so that you can grow at the same rate as they do. It might be a bit of an eyerollingly overused cliche, but it really does work when deployed well and there are some games that could barely function without it.

Character who joins, leaves, joins, leaves, and joins your party again - Nah I think these are fun. Feels like a very specifically jrpg-oriented cliche (about half of these do).

Choices that don't matter - An overrated boogeyman, in my opinion. This can be frustrating in games where it seems like a choice SHOULD matter but ends up at the same point anyway, but in a lot of instances I don't really want wildly branching choices as much as people seem to anyway. I get particularly annoyed by the sort of player who seems to expect every game has like 30 different endings personally tailored to your exact set of circumstances - it just doesn't bother me when games only have one or two endings and the choices are just the journey along the way (see: Life is Strange).

Dead character gets resurrected - Is this a gaming cliche? I can't even name an instance of this happening off the top of my head and it wouldn't necessarily be annoying if it did.

"Let's split up, even though it's smarter to stick together!" - This also doesn't seem like a cliche to me but I think splitting up character rosters is fun because it means you get to see different interactions than you would normally and it incentivizes you to use characters you wouldn't normally.

Power of Friendship - This was my runner up choice, I do think it's kind of a dull cliche especially in jrpgs. But at least it's kind of sweet and positive and mostly harmless at the end of the day - it's nice to emphasize the power of friendship!

Silent Protagonist - It's bad in some games but it's good in others. This is just a style choice that isn't inherently good or bad in my opinion. It can be a perfectly fine choice in games where the storytelling is more about building the world around the character (external) than it is about building the character you're playing (internal) - Zelda and Chrono Trigger are examples of games where the silent protagonist works (although I can imagine a CT where Crono talks that works just fine - can't say the same for most Zelda games).

Unstoppable Hero until there's a cutscene - Sort of a bad, lazy writing cliche but I get why it happens. I do think writers should try their hardest to intergrate scenes around a boss fight such that beating the boss feels like it actually matters vs the boss getting the upper hand at the end anyway (but you still need to win the fight) but it doesn't bother me that desperately.

Villains hellbent on world domination, on the other hand, absolutely are overused in my opinion, unless it's played for comedy/camp - everyone loves a good Dr. Wily or Dr. Robotnik. But I get really sick of games, especially jrpgs, where the stakes are comedically high to the point that you're fighting for the fate of the universe against some kind of unrealistically malevolent bad guy. This cliche bothers me more when it's a villain hellbent on *destroying* the world, but still, world-level scope is just way overused and I'm just not really a big fan of black-and-white good vs evil stories.

I would say that amnesia is the 'best' cliche included on this list. A lot of REALLY good stories use amnesia / distorted memories as a focal point.

Amnesia is done exceptionally well in games like Silent Hill 2 and Xenogears. Other times, it's just an overused plot device.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a game that was made worse by an amnesia plotline, while I can think of a bunch that are made better. I would list them but a fair number of them are spoilers!

I appreciate you not dropping spoilers. I'm sure my backlog includes a few games with amnesia in them.

Yeah, the amnesia trope honestly doesn't bother me that much, even in situations where it's only used to give an excuse to have a tutorial, like in Justice for All.

Well for one that you're probably familiar with, Final Fantasy VII has a very memorable amnesia plot that I think is one of the storytelling highlights.

I guess as a counterexample, Final Fantasy VIII's amnesia plot point is really silly, but it also doesn't matter, so the net negative is small.

I am a little more 'amnesia again?' when it comes to it applying to other characters vs the main character (which is almost always to serve some sort of mechanical function that has a purpose), but even then it often leads to pretty fun mysteries.

Yeah I do think amnesia works best when it's with the main character. Disco Elysium, Planescape Torment, and The House in Fata Morgana have their entire plots centered around waking up with lost memories, and those are three of the best game stories ever constructed. (Also not a spoiler to mention those because it's made clear from the beginning)