Current Events > How do you feel about young bloods "paying their dues"?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Interested to see what is CE's view on this issue.

:V

"I suffered so others should as well" will always be a fucking stupid mindset.

Paying your dues can mean a lot of things. It can be "You're new so scrub the toilet since someone has to do it and I have seniority," it can be outright bullying, or it can be very valuable experience that teaches the groundwork of a profession.

Depends on the profession.

You can't always just throw someone into a job and expect them to know it.

codey posted...

Paying your dues can mean a lot of things. It can be "You're new so scrub the toilet since someone has to do it and I have seniority," it can be outright bullying, or it can be very valuable experience that teaches the groundwork of a profession.

This. Making them do the ditch digging at a construction job on the other hand, that stuff is tedious but a great way of making sure they can keep up with the constant movements and all. Not even getting into lifting and moving things.

codey posted...

Paying your dues can mean a lot of things. It can be "You're new so scrub the toilet since someone has to do it and I have seniority," it can be outright bullying, or it can be very valuable experience that teaches the groundwork of a profession.

Depends on the job. If scrubbing the toilets has always been a starter person's job, then that's how it is. You can't expect special treatment.

idk what that means

I think it has merit, so long as it is actually part of a job for beginners, and if results ultimately carry more weight than simple seniority.

Depends on the profession. In a restaurant, newer hires should be doing some of the less pleasant jobs during downtime. Of course, any good kitchen manager will jump in to help when they can, still getting their hands dirty. Even chefs will spend 10 minutes in the dish pit so the crew can focus on switching from lunch to dinner.

In construction, the younger guys have to do the harder physical work. It takes a toll on you and their testosterone is higher.

Ever heard of the phrase "pay up sucka"?

I try treat newcomers with respect, understanding and even levity, but I also let them know that I expect them to do their share of the work, no matter the gap in our learned skills, once their training period is over. And if they want to stand in front of that sweet, sweet AC unit instead of me, they also have to operate the computer screen in the same spot, which isn't much extra work but is definitely more responsibility and it can feel fairly demanding at first.

Yeah, street life is tough for these young bloods.
https://youtu.be/3DOBsQ7Y6OA

It makes sense for things such as grunt work, that honestly, more senior members of the team shouldn't be wasting their time on. Not only is it good for the new people to do so they understand more of the whole process, but seniors' time should be used on the most productive outputs.

Oh wow option 1 is very common way of thinking in the two units i worked at in airforce aircraft maintenance. 3-level newbies aren't really expected to do much the first year or so other than push a toolbox and some ground equipment around the flightline all day and shadow more experienced people (mainly 5-levels & sometimes 7-levels) in various aircraft related tasks. If there was absolutely no work or study for the 5-level test they'd just make them (the 3-levels) clean a part of the unit's building which wasn't much tbh cuz it was fairly small.

Then there were were the 7-levels who did less of the physical work that the the 5-levels did (like removing/replacing components). Sat around in the office or truck (especially if expediter) more often and mainly came out to the flightline to check the work of the 5-levels or help troubleshoot a problem. Of course if there weren't enough experienced bodies due to poor manning they go out and do the work of the 5-levels as well. 9-levels never went out on the flightline and just did office work.

Just going off memory so idk how accurate this is and prob varies per base or whatever. I don't see the problem with this type of lifestyle tbh. I can see people being jaded after a few years of terrible work hours and sometimes backbreaking work. I met many ppl in their mid 20s that had some knee or back issues. Let the new bloods do the shit the old heads don't wanna do.

Ratchetrockon posted...

Oh wow option 1 is very common way of thinking in the two units i worked at in airforce aircraft maintenance. 3-level newbies aren't really expected to do much the first year or so other than push a toolbox and some ground equipment around the flightline all day and shadow more experienced people (mainly 5-levels & sometimes 7-levels) in various aircraft related tasks. If there was absolutely no work or study for the 5-level test they'd just make them (the 3-levels) clean a part of the unit's building which wasn't much tbh cuz it was fairly small.

Then there were were the 7-levels who did less of the physical work that the the 5-levels did (like removing/replacing components). Sat around in the office or truck (especially if expediter) more often and mainly came out to the flightline to check the work of the 5-levels or help troubleshoot a problem. Of course if there weren't enough experienced bodies due to poor manning they go out and do the work of the 5-levels as well. 9-levels never went out on the flightline and just did office work.

Just going off memory so idk how accurate this is and prob varies per base or whatever. I don't see the problem with this type of lifestyle tbh. I can see people being jaded after a few years of terrible work hours and sometimes backbreaking work. I met many ppl in their mid 20s that had some knee or back issues. Let the new bloods do the shit the old heads don't wanna do.

Good to hear the three level experience was the same in other career fields lol.

In air traffic, we also had a year or so of training you had to complete before getting your five level. Like you said, it was mostly shadowing 5 and 7 levels in position before going up for your certification (and tests and other knowledge-based stuff) but there was also a fair bit of "bitch work" that came down to making sure the facility nice. Cleaning the tower, trimming the hedges, sweeping the entranceway, that sort of thing. It wasn't a punishment or anything, we just didn't have janitorial staff and the three levels were the only ones free to clean because everyone else needed to be in position working planes in the sky.

There was hazing though, which I wasn't in support of after seeing another 3 level get it particularly bad and wash out. I mostly put a stop to it on my crew once I got my 7 level, but the crew I was running skewed really young and most of the 5 and 3 levels were all friends anyway so there was never any mean-hearted stuff going on.

One odd thing I noticed about the hazing was that all the "pranks" people would do to fuck with the three levels seemed like the same jokes they were playing 20 years ago, and it was always old guys. Like, they would send 3 levels on pointless errands to get things like an approach gate key which doesn't exist since the approach is an imaginary point that doesn't actually exist. These old tower controllers really thought they were being slick since the approach is a concept that radar controllers learn, but were too dumb to realize that in the decades since they went to tech school they've been teaching 3 levels both tower and radar to make them more well-rounded and easier to slot into different bases that need new controllers.

TLDR: Paying your dues is great when it's just learning the basics and completing tasks that others have been promoted out of, but it can easily become hazing if you're not mindful, which is obviously bad. It's just not a black and white concept.

some people barely suffer anyway, and some also suffer for too long or even forever.

if paying dues was a standard process i wouldn't hate it. but this whole "come with experience, knowledge, and credentials and then maybe we'll let you work here" kind of thing is too much for me because it's having the most of all those domains.